insight

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Alaya
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Re: insight

Postby Alaya » Thu Mar 21, 2019 11:58 pm

Hello Kay,

thank you for being able to continue this exploration with me and bringing your guidance;
around putting aside all other practices - would short sits - formless sits, ie sitting with what is be also advised to put aside?


[quoteTell me ONE sound that you heard when doing this? (Make sure it is a sound that you will be able to hear again for part 2 of this exercise][/quote]

there is a sound of the wind

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forgetmenot
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Re: insight

Postby forgetmenot » Fri Mar 22, 2019 7:11 am

Hey Alaya,
around putting aside all other practices - would short sits - formless sits, ie sitting with what is be also advised to put aside?
There is no need to sit with what IS....it is always here and never goes anywhere. There is no special state of mind that takes you closer to what IS. What IS...is sound, colour, smell, taste, sensation and the face value of thought. Are you ever not aware of them when they arise?

But to answer your question...if you meditate or like to do short sits...by all means, do so.
Tell me ONE sound that you heard when doing this? (Make sure it is a sound that you will be able to hear again for part 2 of this exercise
there is a sound of the wind
Okay. I would like you to repeat the exercise by answering only from actual experience (AE)/

How is it known that the sound is ''wind'?
In other words, what is it that says that it is the 'wind'?

What is the actual experience (AE) of hearing ‘wind’? ‘


Kay
Nothing real can be threatened. Nothing unreal exists.
https://freedomalreadyis.com/

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Alaya
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Re: insight

Postby Alaya » Fri Mar 22, 2019 7:58 am

thanks for this Kay;
How is it known that the sound is ''wind'?
through AE I just know that there is this sound
In other words, what is it that says that it is the 'wind'?
the sound appears and the thought arises that this is wind

What is the actual experience (AE) of hearing ‘wind’? ‘
hearing' the wind' is experienced through the whole body, not only ears;
there are actual sensations in the body/resonance? or vibrations, mainly around the core of my body; it doesn't' feel separate from the wind outside

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forgetmenot
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Re: insight

Postby forgetmenot » Fri Mar 22, 2019 8:17 am

Hey Alaya,
How is it known that the sound is ''wind'?
through AE I just know that there is this sound
What does the label ‘wind’ point to? Does it point to colour, smell, taste, sensation, sound or thought?
In other words, what is it that says that it is the 'wind'?
the sound appears and the thought arises that this is wind
Yes, it is thought that labels sound as ‘wind’. Without thought how would this be known exactly?
What is the actual experience (AE) of hearing ‘wind’? ‘
hearing' the wind' is experienced through the whole body, not only ears;
there are actual sensations in the body/resonance? or vibrations, mainly around the core of my body; it doesn't' feel separate from the wind outside
Everything you wrote is simply a story ABOUT ‘hearing wind’ (ie content of thought) and is AE of thought.

What is actually appearing is sound which thought then overlays with a story about the sound being wind.
The label ‘wind’ is AE of thought and not AE of wind
The sound labelled as ‘wind’ is AE of sound and not AE of wind
Can you see this?


Kay
Nothing real can be threatened. Nothing unreal exists.
https://freedomalreadyis.com/

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Alaya
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Re: insight

Postby Alaya » Fri Mar 22, 2019 10:29 am

Hello Kay,
What does the label ‘wind’ point to? Does it point to colour, smell, taste, sensation, sound or thought?
In other words, what is it that says that it is the 'wind'?
it points to sound
the specific sound is recognized by thought as wind
Yes, it is thought that labels sound as ‘wind’. Without thought how would this be known exactly?
without thought, this would be known as sound
The sound labelled as ‘wind’ is AE of sound and not AE of wind
Can you see this?
yes, I see it
so basically whatever I hear is an appearance of sound, which then is labelled and turned into a story through thinking

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forgetmenot
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Re: insight

Postby forgetmenot » Fri Mar 22, 2019 10:41 am

Hello Alaya,
What does the label ‘wind’ point to? Does it point to colour, smell, taste, sensation, sound or thought?
In other words, what is it that says that it is the 'wind'?
it points to sound
the specific sound is recognized by thought as wind
It points to thought. The LABEL ‘wind’ points to thought and is AE of thought and not AE of wind.

Thought doesn’t recognise anything. Thought is not an entity and is not aware in any way. If thoughts were expressed via the tweeting of birds or an unknown language, how would you know what they meant? What meaning is given to thoughts are only just thoughts about thoughts.
Yes, it is thought that labels sound as ‘wind’. Without thought how would this be known exactly?
without thought, this would be known as sound
Yes, exactly. It is AE of sound.
The sound labelled as ‘wind’ is AE of sound and not AE of wind
Can you see this?
yes, I see it
so basically whatever I hear is an appearance of sound, which then is labelled and turned into a story through thinking
There is no ‘you’ that is hearing anything! But yes…when sound appears it is AE of sound. An appearing thought then seemingly labels the sound and tells a story about what the sound is etc ie a thought story about experience itself.

The interpretation of actual experience happens quickly. So while inquiring, the interpretation will always be appear…but it is possible to focus on actual experience only.

The following exercise points to what I mean.

For this exercise you will need an apple or any other piece of fruit will do.

Image

Have a look at an apple. When ‘looking at an apple’, there's colour; a thought saying ‘apple’; and maybe a thought saying, "I'm looking at an apple."
What is known for sure? Colour is known and thoughts are known.

What about the content of thoughts, what they describe?
Actual experience does not refer to thoughts ABOUT something…because that is only just more thought. Actual experience is sound, thought, colour, smell, taste, sensation.

Is there really an ‘apple’ here, or only colour and a thought ABOUT ‘apple’?
Can ‘apple’ be found in actual experience?


While these thoughts are known, what they talk ABOUT can't be found in actual experience.

This is what is meant by ‘looking in actual experience ‘. What you know for sure, and, is always here.

The label ‘apple’ is known
Taste labelled ‘apple’ is known
Colour labelled ‘apple’ is known
Sensation labelled ‘apple’ is known (when apple is touched)
Smell labelled ‘apple’ is known
Thought about/of an ‘apple’ is known
However, is an apple actually known?

Kay
Nothing real can be threatened. Nothing unreal exists.
https://freedomalreadyis.com/

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Alaya
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Re: insight

Postby Alaya » Fri Mar 22, 2019 8:22 pm

hello Kay,
good points! I see I was still referring to labels! shocking...

Is there really an ‘apple’ here, or only colour and a thought ABOUT ‘apple’?
there is colour and thought about the shape and taste of 'an apple'
Can ‘apple’ be found in actual experience?
apple is found as a thought, as a label - would this be an actual experience of a thought?
However, is an apple actually known?
the actual experience of apple is not known
what comes is that thinking about apple is known though it is known as a thought
if I don't know what apple is I can't relate to naming it through taste smell sensation

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forgetmenot
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Re: insight

Postby forgetmenot » Fri Mar 22, 2019 11:08 pm

Hey Alaya,
Is there really an ‘apple’ here, or only colour and a thought ABOUT ‘apple’?
there is colour and thought about the shape and taste of 'an apple'
Yes..nice!
Shapes are just different patterns of colour.
Can ‘apple’ be found in actual experience?
apple is found as a thought, as a label - would this be an actual experience of a thought?
Yes, exactly. Label/thoughts of an ‘apple’ are AE of thought.
However, is an apple actually known?
the actual experience of apple is not known
what comes is that thinking about apple is known though it is known as a thought
if I don't know what apple is I can't relate to naming it through taste smell sensation
“if I don't know what apple is I can't relate to naming it through taste smell sensation” – yes….exactly…nice :)

And just to make sure that AE and how to look with AE is clear…let’s try one last exercise.

I would like you to try as many times throughout the day as you can. Label daily activities, objects and emotions simply colour/image, sound, smell, taste, sensation, thought.

So for example, when having breakfast, become aware of:

Seeing a cup, simply= image/colour
Smelling coffee, simply = smell,
Feeling the warmth of the coffee cup, simply = sensation.
Tasting the coffee, simply = taste
Hearing the spoon stirring the coffee, simply = sound
Thought about drinking the coffee, simply = thought.

Just break down daily activities into these categories (which are all actual experience) and report back how you go, giving some examples please.

Kay
Nothing real can be threatened. Nothing unreal exists.
https://freedomalreadyis.com/

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Alaya
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Re: insight

Postby Alaya » Fri Mar 22, 2019 11:16 pm

Could you clarify breaking down emotions please?

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Alaya
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Re: insight

Postby Alaya » Fri Mar 22, 2019 11:19 pm

Feeling happy is a thought
Feeling tired is a thought, a label
Is this what you mean?

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Alaya
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Re: insight

Postby Alaya » Fri Mar 22, 2019 11:20 pm

Feeling happy is a thought
Feeling tired is a thought, a label
Is this what you mean?

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forgetmenot
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Re: insight

Postby forgetmenot » Sat Mar 23, 2019 12:05 am

Hello Alaya,

Let's look at sad.

The label 'sad' is AE of thought and not AE of sad
The sensation labelled as 'sadness' is AE of sensation and not AE of sad.
The image labelled as 'me/I/body' is AE of colour and not AE of a person
The thoughts ABOUT being sad and what sadness is, and who it is affecting are AE of thought and not AE of sadness or a sad person.

So what is known is label + sensation + colour + thoughts ABOUT sadness, but is sadness actually known?

Kay
Nothing real can be threatened. Nothing unreal exists.
https://freedomalreadyis.com/

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Alaya
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Re: insight

Postby Alaya » Sat Mar 23, 2019 2:30 pm

ok, let's see
Just break down daily activities into these categories (which are all actual experience) and report back how you go, giving some examples, please.
* drinking tea

thinking about drinking tea - thought
looking at a cup - colour, shape
feeling warmth of a cup - sensation
tasting tea - taste
smelling tea - smell
holding a cup - sensation
hearing a cup being put on the table - sound

* shower

hearing water - sound
water touching the skin - sensation
seeing water - image
touching water - sensation
me/body - image, label, shape colour
thought about taking a shower - thought

* anxious

the label anxious - actual experience of thought
the sensation labelled as 'anxious' - ae of sensation
'me' the image of 'me' - ae of shape
the thought about being anxious - thought

* a movie

watching a movie - thought
seeing images - colour,shape
listening,hearing - sound
thinking about a movie - thought

* laughter

the label laughing - ae of thought
hearing laughter - sound
me laughing - the image of me is the ae of colour ,shape
laughing - sound

* happy
the label happy - thought
sensation labelled as happy - sensation, AE of sensation
thought of being happy - AE of thought
me - the aE of shape
me being happy - aE of thought!

* worry

the label worry - AE of thought
sensation labelled ar worry - AE as sensation
me - AE of shape, colour
me worrying - thought

* cooking

the label cooking - ae of thought
holding a pan - touch, sensation
looking at food - image, colour
smelling food - smell
cooking food - thought

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forgetmenot
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Re: insight

Postby forgetmenot » Sun Mar 24, 2019 12:50 am

Hello Alaya,

Wow...some nice LOOKING done in your examples. I suggest you keep breaking down activities, emotions etc into AE for a few more days...so as to solidify LOOKING at what is as opposed to what thought says is.

Okay, here is an exercise which points out the difference between actual experience and content of thought. Thoughts either point to AE or they point to thoughts about thought. Thought, in and of itself, does not contain any experience, otherwise you would be able to taste the word ‘sweet’ and feel the word ‘hot’ and hear thunder when the word ‘thunder’ appeared!

There are two types of thoughts:
#1 Thoughts with words “Here is cup”
#2 Visual mental images of a ‘cup’

So I invite you to do this exercise:
Think of a cup. Get a very clear picture in your mind. See clearly the size, shape, colour and volume of the cup. Notice whether it is decorated or plain. Notice whether it has a handle. Notice whether it is heavy or fragile. Do you have a clear picture in mind?

Now, can you physically grasp that image of a cup?
Can you pour tea into it?
Can you drink from it?

Is there a ‘real’ cup or just a mental image of a cup?
Is the content of the mental image (the cup) ‘real’?


Now let’s look at the word thought “here is a cup”….

Can a 'real' cup be found in the thought itself?

"Here is a cup" is the thought; the ensuing thoughts of what a cup is and does, what it is made from etc are the content of that thought. What do those thoughts point to exactly? Do they point to colour, taste, smell, sensation or sound? Or do they simply point to actual experience of thought and thought only?

So thoughts and mental images are actual experience only as arising thoughts (words and mental image), their ‘presence’ cannot be denied. However their contents, what they are about, what they are pointing to (like the cup) are not ‘real’, they are just fantasies. Can you see this?

Over the course of the next day or so, I'd like you to notice the content of thoughts. Whenever there is an arising thought or mental image, check whether its content (what it’s about, what it is pointing to) is REALLY happening, or the content is just pure imagination. Let me know how it goes.


Kay
Nothing real can be threatened. Nothing unreal exists.
https://freedomalreadyis.com/

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Alaya
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Re: insight

Postby Alaya » Sun Mar 24, 2019 5:02 pm

Hi Kay,
thanks for this :)
"Here is a cup" is the thought; the ensuing thoughts of what a cup is and does, what it is made from etc are the content of that thought. What do those thoughts point to exactly? Do they point to colour, taste, smell, sensation or sound? Or do they simply point to actual experience of thought and thought only?
those thoughts point to the actual experience of thought, bringing further thinking
So thoughts and mental images are actual experience only as arising thoughts (words and mental image), their ‘presence’ cannot be denied. However their contents, what they are about, what they are pointing to (like the cup) are not ‘real’, they are just fantasies. Can you see this?
looks like a strong tendency in believing that thought is real,
only when I stop and look at this thought and its reality - it ceases and changes into another thought

Over the course of the next day or so, I'd like you to notice the content of thoughts. Whenever there is an arising thought or mental image, check whether its content (what it’s about, what it is pointing to) is REALLY happening, or the content is just pure imagination. Let me know how it goes.
thinking takes me straight to the story in the future or in the past, most of the todays thinking is pretty much made up and engaged around story which brings emotional response - even this is made up - all stories are self centred, though there is no consistency in them, one minute the story brings sadness and then it changes into something else, following it feels endless ; like thinking is endless and inconsistent, at some point it came to me that it's pointless to take it so seriously, even when the emotional response feels real


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