freedom from the character I've created to protect myself

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gobs
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Re: freedom from the character I've created to protect myself

Postby gobs » Sat Mar 23, 2019 8:34 pm

yes, you might even have created a story of a 'me' or 'floris' with which you're talking, while what you read here are just some words on a screen, and they can't be found to come from anywhere (or anyone).
Yes, there is still some illusion of separation between the two of us, but the more I question it the more that disappears.
perhaps what was felt to keep up/going was a set of behaviours and the like which felt/feel unnatural? Does it feel like keeping up a story/gobs?
Yes, it felt very unnatural, or like I was living a lie because I thought that was what "I" had to do.

But even this feeling of "this is unnatural to me" comes from a sense of identity, so I am now questioning that as well.

I will question every sense of responsibility, but then also must question the other side of the 'me' that avoids responsibility or whats to be somehow separate from those aspects of life.
Can you try raising a hand as Gobs, and then for a next try let the hand raise without any effort on its own, just observe the hand going up. Is there a difference?
There is a subtle difference, I still feel some effort from 'me' is required to raise the hand.
Could it also be that there is noone that is giving up effort?
Yes, that makes perfect sense now
Okay good. Could it be that a decision is only thought? The next time that you're driving (if you do), then notice how the driving is going. Seem there to be decisions made, or can it also seem to happen without any? Can you find what is doing the driving? Is thinking necessary to change the gears? Can you get a feel for driving just happening?
Yes there are so many things that happen without effort, it is interesting how there seems to be some difference where some things are very hard to do, and there's a lot of guilt over lack of control of these things. And other things like driving the car just happen automatically, without all the 'inner conflict'.

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Florisness
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Re: freedom from the character I've created to protect myself

Postby Florisness » Sun Mar 24, 2019 11:30 am

Yes, there is still some illusion of separation between the two of us, but the more I question it the more that disappears.
Would 'between the two of us' be part of that? :-)

There is a subtle difference, I still feel some effort from 'me' is required to raise the hand.
Okay good, so what feels the 'me' to be here? You say that it feels effort is required from something (me in this case), is this experience or interpretation? How about there is a sense of effort and senseofself/identity when activity x is happening?

Yes there are so many things that happen without effort, it is interesting how there seems to be some difference where some things are very hard to do, and there's a lot of guilt over lack of control of these things. And other things like driving the car just happen automatically, without all the 'inner conflict'.
Are you saying that some things happen with and other things without effort? I get what you mean by effort, but it might be worth to look into. How is it known that some things are done, or very hard to do, or require your effort?

Some thing I feel might be useful to point out is that it is not necessary to rid oneself of identification, or to think things true, or to belief certain things, in order for the belief, or persistence in thinking, of being a separate self to go or seen through. Is it obvious that there is no self to be found? That doesn't mean there isn't more delusion left which can be looked into, belief in being a separate self is just a part of the mess:).
If you're up for it, it might be a good idea to take a walk outside (in nature optimally), and just notice everything moving and wiggling. notice the legs moving, sounds, thoughts, wind, all happening. If you do, give the intellect a little break.

Floris

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gobs
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Re: freedom from the character I've created to protect myself

Postby gobs » Tue Mar 26, 2019 5:49 pm

Hi Floris,

So sorry for the delay in responding.

I think I'm ready for the final questions.

Could we begin that process now?

Thanks again for all of your help along the journey,

Gobs

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Florisness
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Re: freedom from the character I've created to protect myself

Postby Florisness » Tue Mar 26, 2019 6:09 pm

Hi Gobs,

So sorry for the delay in responding.

I think I'm ready for the final questions.

Could we begin that process now?

Thanks again for all of your help along the journey,
good hearing from you again, and thank you for that! Yes, here are the questions:


1) Is there a separate entity 'self', 'me' 'I', at all, anywhere, in any way, shape or form? Was there ever?

2) Explain in detail what the illusion of separate self is, when it starts and how it works from your own experience. Describe it fully as you see it now.

3) How does it feel to see this? What is the difference from before you started this dialogue? Please report from the past few days.

4) What was the last bit that pushed you over, made you look?

5) Describe decision, intention, free will, choice and control. What makes things happen? How does it work? What are you responsible for? Give examples from experience.

6) Anything to add?

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gobs
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Re: freedom from the character I've created to protect myself

Postby gobs » Tue Mar 26, 2019 9:24 pm

1) Is there a separate entity 'self', 'me' 'I', at all, anywhere, in any way, shape or form? Was there ever?
No. There still seems to be a consistency of experience, but upon examination, there is no entity ever to be found. Just thoughts.

Was there ever? As far as "I" can see, there is only now the present and the memories that appear in the present. So yes, there are many stories that come up about an entity through various life experiences. But these memories are also just thoughts with no core entity, upon examination.
2) Explain in detail what the illusion of separate self is, when it starts and how it works from your own experience. Describe it fully as you see it now.
It arises from thoughts of relationship. "I" communicating with "another", "I" wanting love from "another", "I" wanting to be separate from or to hide from "another". These are each all complete thoughts that include "I" and the "other" and all aspects of the relationship between the two. The thoughts are complete and all in-one, but each thought is separate from another and there is no consistent entity between them.
3) How does it feel to see this? What is the difference from before you started this dialogue? Please report from the past few days.
It feels very uneventful, to be honest. I feel that I must have missed something due to the simplicity... but even that is just a passing thought upon examination.

Doubts arise, as any other thought. But the doubting entity is no more real than any other

Perhaps doubts and other thoughts will never stop coming, but they have no real substance and cannot stay upon examination.
4) What was the last bit that pushed you over, made you look?
I think a good bit of it shifted in your very first question of me:
Could you try to make a sort of description of what this entity is? Look at this experience you have you think of as an entity, as if it's the first time you ever experienced it. What is it made of, and does seem like it can do things and perceive things? it doesnt need to be true what you come up with, don't worry about that, just try to get a sense of what this entity experience is like. tell me what your findings
Having to actually respond to that question from direct experience caused a shift. I had spent years reading, listening, watching many teachers and perhaps they made me 'ripe' for realization, but actually having to respond was the difference.

After that there was some 'cleaning up' in examining thoughts such as 'youre going to lose this realization' or 'you dont REALLY get it yet' and finding nothing at the core of them.

(It's interesting reading this back that I used 'you' to describe these self-critical thoughts. It's as if there was already some separation and that these thoughts were presenting from someone else's perspective... not consistent with one solid entity who is thinking)

I think what you said here was when I felt I was ready for the questions
Some thing I feel might be useful to point out is that it is not necessary to rid oneself of identification, or to think things true, or to belief certain things, in order for the belief, or persistence in thinking, of being a separate self to go or seen through. Is it obvious that there is no self to be found? That doesn't mean there isn't more delusion left which can be looked into, belief in being a separate self is just a part of the mess:).
Yes, it's obvious that there's no self to ever be found. Yet it still feels like there is a lot of delusion here as well as expectations of some 'enlightened' end state
5) Describe decision, intention, free will, choice and control. What makes things happen? How does it work? What are you responsible for? Give examples from experience.
Decisions, actions, etc... happen automatically. There is no clear decision point to be found, thoughts and actions arise with no apparent source. A decision is understood in another thought, a moment after the decision thought was made. It is understood by the thought "I chose that one"

There are 'entity' thoughts after the fact such as 'I made that decision' or 'I should not have eaten that' or 'I need to regain control of my life'. These delusional thoughts seem to contain suffering.

But like all thoughts, the 'entity' in the frequent thoughts 'I should not have eaten that' or 'I'm fat because I eat too much' is only 'alive' in that single thought. The entity was not there at the time the action of eating was performed. No consistent entity was. There may have been a thought in between the 'decision' point and the eating... 'Ok, I'm going to eat it'. But it was only as a reaction to the spontaneously made decision with no entity at the core.

....What am I responsible for? In so far as there is 'anyone here', my main responsibility is to investigate the delusional thoughts which create suffering, as it seems that the suffering from this being may spread to others (family, community) and create patterns of delusional suffering thoughts in their life.

Life goes along just fine without an entity, it always has. In fact, it seems that the more an imagined entity is present, the more dysfunctional and problematic life appears to be.
6) Anything to add?
Everything I've just written (including this line) from 'my' perspective is delusion. Everything is happening by itself and to no one. The person who has joined this forum with the username 'Gobs' still experiences delusion, and doubt and suffering... but everything written above is from direct experience.

Thank you to you, my guide, as well as the founders of this community for helping to bring me home.

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Florisness
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Re: freedom from the character I've created to protect myself

Postby Florisness » Wed Mar 27, 2019 6:43 pm

Hi Gobs,
I'll respond when I have a respons from another guide who read your answers:)

Have a good day!

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gobs
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Re: freedom from the character I've created to protect myself

Postby gobs » Fri Mar 29, 2019 2:49 pm

I'll respond when I have a respons from another guide who read your answers:)
Ok, thank you!

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Florisness
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Re: freedom from the character I've created to protect myself

Postby Florisness » Fri Mar 29, 2019 4:13 pm

Hi Gobs,

A couple of questions came up. So could you please answer the following points?

In question 5, you wrote about thoughts that are understood by thoughts. So:
a) Are thoughts living entities and aware? If not then how do thoughts understand other thoughts?

b) Where does 'entity' thoughts come from and from what entity exactly and how are they different to any other thought?
How do thoughts themselves contain suffering?

And about responsibility:
a) What exactly is it that is "responsible to investigate the delusional thoughts which create suffering"? Where is this "I" exactly?

b) What is it exactly that suffers and where is it located exactly?

Take care,
Floris

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gobs
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Re: freedom from the character I've created to protect myself

Postby gobs » Sat Mar 30, 2019 8:11 pm

a) Are thoughts living entities and aware? If not then how do thoughts understand other thoughts?
No, thoughts have no awareness of their own. A thought might contain a memory of another thought, along with some sort of analysis or sense of 'understanding'. But there is no real understanding from one thought to another. A thought has no direct access to any other thought.

b) Where does 'entity' thoughts come from and from what entity exactly and how are they different to any other thought?
I don't know where any thoughts come from. They seem to just appear. Thoughts with the sense of an 'entity' appear the same way, from nothing. I guess they are really no different from any other thought.
How do thoughts themselves contain suffering?
When the thoughts that contain 'me' are present, suffering seems to arise. It's not the thought themselves that suffer, it is the experience of believing those thoughts which causes suffering. I don't know 'who' it is who suffers.
a) What exactly is it that is "responsible to investigate the delusional thoughts which create suffering"? Where is this "I" exactly?
It's no one, this is another delusion really. There is no "I" who is investigating. There is no one here to be responsible for anything.
b) What is it exactly that suffers and where is it located exactly?
I don't know. I can't find anything.

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Florisness
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Re: freedom from the character I've created to protect myself

Postby Florisness » Sat Mar 30, 2019 8:59 pm

No, thoughts have no awareness of their own. A thought might contain a memory of another thought, along with some sort of analysis or sense of 'understanding'. But there is no real understanding from one thought to another. A thought has no direct access to any other thought.
Yes I know what you're getting at. A little more precise might be to say that a thought does not literally contain another thought, as thought is not a container where things can be put into. But thoughts, especially about 'persons', come with a whole context, story or meaning (basically more thought), does that sound accurate?
When the thoughts that contain 'me' are present, suffering seems to arise. It's not the thought themselves that suffer, it is the experience of believing those thoughts which causes suffering. I don't know 'who' it is who suffers.

b) What is it exactly that suffers and where is it located exactly?
I don't know. I can't find anything.
It sounds like there is an assumption that there must be something that is suffering. Could it be there there is no sufferer? Could this be caused by thoughts of a self suffering when something happens? For example when something hurts, there might be a thoughtface appearing hurt, maybe also thoughtsounds are present saying 'auw that hurts'. what do you find?

Take care,
Floris

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gobs
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Re: freedom from the character I've created to protect myself

Postby gobs » Thu Apr 04, 2019 1:25 am

Yes I know what you're getting at. A little more precise might be to say that a thought does not literally contain another thought, as thought is not a container where things can be put into. But thoughts, especially about 'persons', come with a whole context, story or meaning (basically more thought), does that sound accurate?
Yes, that is my understanding.
It sounds like there is an assumption that there must be something that is suffering. Could it be there there is no sufferer? Could this be caused by thoughts of a self suffering when something happens? For example when something hurts, there might be a thoughtface appearing hurt, maybe also thoughtsounds are present saying 'auw that hurts'. what do you find?
Upon examination, no sufferer can be found. I've been looking for several days, but I cannot find anything. "I am suffering", along with images, sounds, etc... are all thoughts. They stand alone and are not happening to anyone

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Florisness
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Re: freedom from the character I've created to protect myself

Postby Florisness » Fri Apr 05, 2019 8:32 pm

Upon examination, no sufferer can be found. I've been looking for several days, but I cannot find anything. "I am suffering", along with images, sounds, etc... are all thoughts. They stand alone and are not happening to anyone
Good.

How are you doing these days? And can you say with 100% certainty that there is no separate self as thought describes it?

Have a good weekend,
Floris

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gobs
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Re: freedom from the character I've created to protect myself

Postby gobs » Tue Apr 09, 2019 1:38 am

How are you doing these days? And can you say with 100% certainty that there is no separate self as thought describes it?
Things have definitely changed.

There have some ‘difficult’ situations, conversations, moments like there were before, but these things are not felt to be as personal as they were before.

If there is any imagined suffering, then the sense of identity is questioned and the illusion is seen through.

These previously challenging and seemingly painful situations are presenting new opportunities to see through the delusion.

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Florisness
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Re: freedom from the character I've created to protect myself

Postby Florisness » Thu Apr 11, 2019 10:18 pm

Things have definitely changed.

There have some ‘difficult’ situations, conversations, moments like there were before, but these things are not felt to be as personal as they were before.

If there is any imagined suffering, then the sense of identity is questioned and the illusion is seen through.

These previously challenging and seemingly painful situations are presenting new opportunities to see through the delusion.
Good to hear!

Just to be precise and leave no room for doubts and such: So is it completely clear that there is no separate self?

Floris

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gobs
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Re: freedom from the character I've created to protect myself

Postby gobs » Fri Apr 19, 2019 8:01 pm

Just to be precise and leave no room for doubts and such: So is it completely clear that there is no separate self?
Yes, it is completely clear now


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