West Cork Ireland- asking for Kay

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forgetmenot
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Re: West Cork Ireland- asking for Kay

Postby forgetmenot » Mon May 06, 2019 10:52 am

Hello Adrian.....I can't help you with that. It is up to you to motivate yourself. Perhaps it is best, for the time being to just leave the guiding for a few weeks and see what transpires then.

Kay
Nothing real can be threatened. Nothing unreal exists.
https://freedomalreadyis.com/

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Re: West Cork Ireland- asking for Kay

Postby Clashnacrona » Mon May 06, 2019 9:54 pm

Hi Kay,

I hear you and of course you're right it is totally up to me to get the motivation to keep going. There seems to be a block there that I just need to work on myself. I'll be in touch when I'm in a place where I can keep going with the investigation. Thanks for all your help so far.

Take Care

Ado

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Re: West Cork Ireland- asking for Kay

Postby forgetmenot » Tue May 07, 2019 12:42 am

Hi Ado...I sent you a PM.

Kay
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https://freedomalreadyis.com/

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Re: West Cork Ireland- asking for Kay

Postby Clashnacrona » Mon May 13, 2019 11:45 am

Hi Kay,

I have just finished reading through my thread. It's becoming clearer again that thought is just telling me a story about a self which is just an illusion. Where do you suggest we go from here?

All the best

Ado

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Re: West Cork Ireland- asking for Kay

Postby forgetmenot » Mon May 13, 2019 9:58 pm

Hey Ado,
I have just finished reading through my thread. It's becoming clearer again that thought is just telling me a story about a self which is just an illusion. Where do you suggest we go from here?
Great! I would like to know how you went with the emotions exercise I gave you. I think that is important to do. So I will post it here.

Let's look at 'fear', although you can do this exercise on any emotion that appears, just replace 'fear' with the emotion that is appearing and being looked at.

So for this exercise...bring to mind a story that seems to evoke 'fear'. When ‘fear’ appears, close your eyes and become aware of everything that is happening…ie bodily sensations, thoughts, mental images etc and then :-

1) Look at the label/thought ‘fear’ itself. See the label/word F E A R or the thought “I am “scared/fearful” as a typewritten word in the ‘mind’s eye’ across the forehead.

Does the label ‘fear’ know anything about fear, or is the word just a bunch of letters?
Is the label ‘fear’ itself fearful?
Can you find anyone/anything in the word itself that is fearful?


2) Then look at the sensation and ignore everything else but the sensation itself.
Inquire into the sensation and ask if the sensation itself knows anything about ‘fear’.

Look and see if the sensation itself is the fearful self. If the words ‘yes’ , or ‘yes, this is the self’ appears, go back to Step 1 and see the words across the forehead and repeat step 1.

Does the sensation itself suggest in any way that it is fear or that it is fearful?
Does the sensation itself know anything about fear?
Can you find anyone/anything in the sensation itself or behind the sensation that is fearful?


If other random mental images appear during the noticing of the sensation, check to see if those images are the self who is fearful, or are they images that are simply arising and subsiding? If other ‘loud’ thoughts appear, check to see if they are the self that is fearful as you did in step 1.

3) Look at the mental image/outline labelled body.

Does the image/outline itself know anything about ‘fear’.
And then look to see if there is anyone/anything in the colour that knows anything about ‘fear’ or that can be ‘fearful’.


If other random mental images appear during the noticing of the sensation, check to see if those images are the self who is fearful, or are they images that are simply arising and subsiding? If other ‘loud’ thoughts appear, check to see if they are the self that is fearful, as you did in step 1.

4) With eyes still closed look everywhere and see if you can find anyone or anything that is fearful.

When you have done this and if no one/no thing is found, then just sit with the sensation. Just breathe normally, notice the thoughts and images that appear and let them pass on by unless they seem to hang around, then do the appropriate steps above. Allow the sensation all the room it needs in the body without pushing it aside or judging it. If it becomes too intense just take a couple of deep breaths into the sensation itself, and then notice the floor under your feet, notice your backside on the chair and then notice what is in the room you are sitting in and name them out loud, while being aware of the sensation - and remember to breathe normally – in and out through the nose. If the sensation does not dissipate at all or only dissipates a little, that is okay, just notice it, without doing anything with it and just go about your day.

We are not trying to get rid of the sensation labelled ‘fear’ or the arising thoughts or images. We are only LOOKING to see what is actually appearing as opposed to what thought is saying ABOUT what actually IS.

Let me know how you go.

The label ‘fear’ is the AE of thought and not the AE of fear
The sensation labelled ‘fear’ is the AE of sensation and not the AE of fear
The colour labelled ‘me/I/body’ is the AE of colour and not the AE of fear
The thoughts ABOUT fear are AE of thought and not AE of fear

So, is there actual experience of ‘fear’ or what is actually appearing (AE) is label + sensation + colour + thoughts ABOUT fear? Is 'fear' actually known?

Kay
Nothing real can be threatened. Nothing unreal exists.
https://freedomalreadyis.com/

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Re: West Cork Ireland- asking for Kay

Postby Clashnacrona » Mon May 13, 2019 10:07 pm

Hi Kay,

Yes I have been doing this exercise but I'm off to sleep now up early for c work in the morning. I'm working an 8 to 8 shift tomorow so I realistically won't get to do a more lengthy post till Wednesday.

Take Care

Ado

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Re: West Cork Ireland- asking for Kay

Postby Clashnacrona » Wed May 15, 2019 11:46 pm

Hi Kay,

I have slept really badly the last couple of nights and had a drumming workshop with a load of kids today and spent most of the rest of the day resting. I have done the exercise a few times and I'll post a full reply in the morning.

Regards

Ado

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Re: West Cork Ireland- asking for Kay

Postby Clashnacrona » Thu May 16, 2019 11:39 am

Hi Kay,

Here are my responses to your post.
Does the label ‘fear’ know anything about fear, or is the word just a bunch of letters?


The label fear doesn’t know anything about fear its just words and letters
Is the label ‘fear’ itself fearful?
No
Can you find anyone/anything in the word itself that is fearful?
Looking at direct experience there is nothing or nobody there only letters and images.
Does the sensation itself suggest in any way that it is fear or that it is fearful?
No it is just a slight sensation of heaviness in my tummy area.
Does the sensation itself know anything about fear?
No it can’t it is just a bodily sensation.

Can you find anyone/anything in the sensation itself or behind the sensation that is fearful?

Again no when the focus is kept on pure sensation it is just a sensation and with nobody behind it or in it.
Does the image/outline itself know anything about ‘fear’.
Going on actual experience the image/colour labelled body doesn’t know anything about fear.
And then look to see if there is anyone/anything in the colour that knows anything about ‘fear’ or that can be ‘fearful’.
I found this one a bit harder and was experiencing loud thoughts that kept telling me that this was all bullshit but once I sat quietly and just let them arise and fall away all the evidence pointed to the fact that the colour/image labelled body can only experience sensations and can’t know or label them them as anything else. It is only the mind and thoughts that tells me that “I am feeling fearful” and that there is anybody there to be experiencing these sensations or feelings.

Let me know how you go.
I have done this exercise quiet a lot in the last number of weeks with various emotions, sensations and feelings. Each time I do it it amazes me that I can’t seem to find anyone there who is supposedly feelings these feelings. I had a very difficult phone call with my ex wife last Friday where she said a lot of very hurtful stuff. Immediately afterwards there were tears and feelings of anger. After that there was a feeling of fatigue in the body but within a few hours the feelings were passing and they definitely aren’t sticking as much as they would have in the past.
Myself and my eldest daughter have been clashing a lot and I’m still finding that I do automatically go into reactive mode but yesterday I did find that these feelings passed more quickly and the ‘taking it personally’ element of the feelings is certainly dissipating.
So, is there actual experience of ‘fear’ or what is actually appearing (AE) is label + sensation + colour + thoughts ABOUT fear? Is 'fear' actually known?
What is known is a heavy sensation in the pit of my stomach that thought automatically labels as fear which usually comes with lots more thoughts about fear which latch onto other situations in my life which thought labels as fearful like financial insecurity, fears around my wife threatening to restrict access to my daughters etc etc…. But these are all just thoughts which are imagination when the AE is just the sensation felt in the colour/image labelled body stomach which usually passes quickly enough when it is seen as just experiencing.


Take Care

Ado

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Re: West Cork Ireland- asking for Kay

Postby forgetmenot » Thu May 16, 2019 1:08 pm

Hello Ado,
And then look to see if there is anyone/anything in the colour that knows anything about ‘fear’ or that can be ‘fearful’.
I found this one a bit harder and was experiencing loud thoughts that kept telling me that this was all bullshit but once I sat quietly and just let them arise and fall away all the evidence pointed to the fact that the colour/image labelled body can only experience sensations and can’t know or label them them as anything else. It is only the mind and thoughts that tells me that “I am feeling fearful” and that there is anybody there to be experiencing these sensations or feelings.
Can colour actually experience sensations?

What is a sensation exactly?
Can it be defined in any way?
Can it actually be described in any way?
It is something, and yet when you look at a sensation carefully, you will also find that it is nothing.
Have a look and let me know what you find.


Does experience have a location? If it does, where, exactly, is it located?
For example: Image of hammer hitting thumb, sensation of pain, thought saying, "ouch!!"

Where exactly did all of that happen?
Where was experience located?
Was experience of pain located in the thumb?
Was experience of images located at the thumb and hammer?
Or is experience always "closer" than even the word "here" can convey?
Does anything actually have a location?
How would you know?
What would count as evidence of actual location?

Let me know how you go.
I have done this exercise quiet a lot in the last number of weeks with various emotions, sensations and feelings. Each time I do it it amazes me that I can’t seem to find anyone there who is supposedly feelings these feelings. I had a very difficult phone call with my ex wife last Friday where she said a lot of very hurtful stuff. Immediately afterwards there were tears and feelings of anger. After that there was a feeling of fatigue in the body but within a few hours the feelings were passing and they definitely aren’t sticking as much as they would have in the past.
Anger and sadness that is felt does not require a ‘me’ as a cause. The idea about ‘me’—the person arises together with the emotions. To resolve this you don’t need to get rid of the ‘me’ (person), or thoughts. Thinking is just fine. Stories show up not because of a ‘me’ but ABOUT the ‘me’—the character. Simply see that anger, fatigue is arising but there is no entity that is being battered by emotions You are aware of all and every emotions that arises…however, you are not IN the emotions.
Myself and my eldest daughter have been clashing a lot and I’m still finding that I do automatically go into reactive mode but yesterday I did find that these feelings passed more quickly and the ‘taking it personally’ element of the feelings is certainly dissipating.
Good to hear!
So, is there actual experience of ‘fear’ or what is actually appearing (AE) is label + sensation + colour + thoughts ABOUT fear? Is 'fear' actually known?
What is known is a heavy sensation in the pit of my stomach that thought automatically labels as fear which usually comes with lots more thoughts about fear which latch onto other situations in my life which thought labels as fearful like financial insecurity, fears around my wife threatening to restrict access to my daughters etc etc…. But these are all just thoughts which are imagination when the AE is just the sensation felt in the colour/image labelled body stomach which usually passes quickly enough when it is seen as just experiencing.
Sensations cannot be felt in colour. How does colour feel sensations exactly?
Does colour know anything about sensations or vice versa?

This also points to object/subject split...that there is something that is feeling something. We will look at the idea of the body next.

Where does sensation (known) end and the knowing of it begin?

I’ve given you this exercise before…but it might be a good time to revisit it.

Let’s have a look at the sensation labelled as ‘fear’ as a means to compare sensations.

If you don’t think about it, do you know that this sensation is something called ‘fear’?
Is there any inherent fear in the sensation itself?

Go to the sensation at the soles of the feet. Would you label that sensation ‘fear’? Or is it just a neutral, undefined tingling sensation?
Now compare the sensation of the soles of the feet – which is just neutral sensation – and the sensation in your chest (labelled ‘fear’)…what is the difference between them?
Thought would say one is a little more ‘intense’, but apart from that – any difference?


Kay
Nothing real can be threatened. Nothing unreal exists.
https://freedomalreadyis.com/

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Re: West Cork Ireland- asking for Kay

Postby Clashnacrona » Thu May 16, 2019 9:43 pm

Hi Kay,

I'm working tomorrow and then am collecting my girls for the weekend. My eldest daughter has a performance with the local youth club whick will be going on till 11pm so I'll post a respomse ear;y Saturday.

Take Care

Ado

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Re: West Cork Ireland- asking for Kay

Postby Clashnacrona » Sat May 18, 2019 1:12 pm

Hi Kay,

I've had a busy few days but have been thinking about your post and here are my response.


Can colour actually experience sensations
?

Up till now I would have said yes of course colour can experience sensations but I'm beginning to see that that may not actually be the case. Again if I relate back to the young baby example a sensation is just something they're experiencing. They don't know to label it sensation or feeling.
What is a sensation exactly
?

I'm not sure is it just energy passing through the body or being felt experienced by the body.
Can it be defined in any way
?

As I said above maybe it's energy or is it similar to sound as in it can't be defined as this sensation anger or that sensation fear etc….. That it is a just thought that puts a label on sensations.
Can it actually be described in any way
?

Without thought hijacking it then I don't think it can.

It
is something, and yet when you look at a sensation carefully, you will also find that it is nothing.
Have a look and let me know what you find
This is blowing my mind so actually sensation is nothing but part of experiencing and it is only the mind that put labels and judgments good or bad on it.






Where exactly did all of that happen?
In the case of the hammer hitting one's thumb is it not in the thumb??
I accidentally cut my finger while chopping fruit a few days ago and there was an intense sensation of pain for a minute or two before it subsided and it certainly felt as if the pain/sensation was located in my finger.
Where was experience located
?

It was located in my cut finger but then quickly the experience moved to my thoughts as I got annoyed at myself for rushing and having to stop what I was doing to put my finger under the cold tap to stop the blood flow.

Was experience of pain located in the thumb
?

It felt like it was located in my finger in my example as it was physically throbbing.
Was experience of images located at the thumb and hammer?
Again in my example they did seem to be located in my finger and knife.

Or
is experience always "closer" than even the word "here" can convey?
I don't know the answer to that. If I'm not my body/mind then the experience must be closer than I think.
Does anything actually have a location
?

Again I'm not sure.
How would you know?


I would have said that the physical boundary of the body was a good indication but that doesn't seem to be the case as this deeper actual experience is starting to show me.
What would count as evidence of actual location
?

As above I would have said the body but I can't say that now.




[quote
] Where does sensation (known) end and the knowing of it begin?
]t is all the one there is no beginning or ending of one or the other.





Go
to the sensation at the soles of the feet. Would you label that sensation ‘fear’? Or is it just a neutral, undefined tingling sensation?
Now compare the sensation of the soles of the feet – which is just neutral sensation – and the sensation in your chest (labelled ‘fear’)…what is the difference between them?
Thought would say one is a little more ‘intense’, but apart from that – any difference
They are both just sensations and it is just the mind that tells me differently. I have been in such a strong habit all my life of associating sensations and feelings with a me/self that each time I do that I'm reinforcing and solidifying that image. It's no wonder that there has been resistance and blockages to this process of seeing that's there's no self.
Thanks for your time.

Take Care

Ado

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Re: West Cork Ireland- asking for Kay

Postby forgetmenot » Sun May 19, 2019 4:26 am

Hello Adrian,
Can colour actually experience sensations?
Up till now I would have said yes of course colour can experience sensations but I'm beginning to see that that may not actually be the case. Again if I relate back to the young baby example a sensation is just something they're experiencing. They don't know to label it sensation or feeling.
I’ve already given you this exercise….but I think it would be good to repeat it now.

Here is an exercise that helps to see how the illusion of the body is ‘created’, so to speak. Normally we believe that sensation is coming from sight (colour), meaning the object seen. In this example, the object being the ‘hand’ (colour labelled as ‘hand’).

1. Close the eyes and hold up one hand. Pay attention only to the felt sensation ‘of the hand’.
2. Open the eyes, and now observe the hand by looking only.
3. While looking at the hand, pay attention to the felt sensations.

Repeat 1 to 3 as many times as needed and investigate…

Can you see that both the ‘visual sight’ (colour) and the sensation appear simultaneously but ‘separately’, meaning that none of them is coming from the other or contained by the other?

Do they just appear equally, ‘beside’ each other without any hierarchy or link between them?

Is there any link between the sensation and the sight ie colour? In other words is the sensation actually ‘coming from’ the sight (colour labelled as ‘hand’), or only thought and mental constructs link them?


So you can repeat this with all of the body parts below, one-by-one.
- feet
- legs
- arms
- belly
- chest
- head (looking into the mirror)

Spend some time doing this and report back on what you found.
What is a sensation exactly?
I'm not sure is it just energy passing through the body or being felt experienced by the body.
You are not LOOKING Adrian!

What is the AE of sensation?
What is the AE of the body?

A sensation is known, yes…as is colour, smell, taste, thought etc. Where does sensation (known) end, and the knowing of it begin? Can you find a dividing line between the knowing of/as sensation and the sensation itself? Or is there simply knowingknown – ie no dividing line?


Don’t just answer “there is no dividing line”. I want you to look at this very carefully. If there is no dividing line between the sensation and the knowing of the sensation…what are the implications of this?

If you drop all thoughts about what sensation is…what is it?
Can it be defined in any way?
As I said above maybe it's energy or is it similar to sound as in it can't be defined as this sensation anger or that sensation fear etc….. That it is a just thought that puts a label on sensations.
THIS/experience is appearing at what thought labels as ‘sensation’.
Can it actually be described in any way
Without thought hijacking it then I don't think it can.
Exactly. Try and describe the sensation labelled as ‘goosebumps’!
It is something, and yet when you look at a sensation carefully, you will also find that it is nothing.
Have a look and let me know what you find
This is blowing my mind so actually sensation is nothing but part of experiencing and it is only the mind that put labels and judgments good or bad on it.
Yes…exactly! Seeing this was part of the 'fear' exercise I gave you.

Does a sensation itself suggest in any way that it is good or bad?
Does the sensation in any way suggest that it is intense, subtle, painful or negative?

Where exactly did all of that happen?
In the case of the hammer hitting one's thumb is it not in the thumb??
I accidentally cut my finger while chopping fruit a few days ago and there was an intense sensation of pain for a minute or two before it subsided and it certainly felt as if the pain/sensation was located in my finger.
You are not LOOKING, Ado. And this is why you keep getting caught up in the stories.

What is the AE of ‘finger’?
Where was experience located?
It was located in my cut finger but then quickly the experience moved to my thoughts as I got annoyed at myself for rushing and having to stop what I was doing to put my finger under the cold tap to stop the blood flow.
That is all thought story.

Where is this finger you are talking about? Please start to LOOK instead of going to stories.
Where is experience located?

It felt like it was located in my finger in my example as it was physically throbbing.
NO looking happening.

What is the AE of "physically throbbing"?
Was experience of images located at the thumb and hammer?
Again in my example they did seem to be located in my finger and knife.
Again…just story…no looking.

Was experience of pain located in the finger?
Does anything actually have a location?
Again I'm not sure.
No, because you are not LOOKING

What is the AE of 'finger'?
Where does sensation (known) end and the knowing of it begin?
It is all the one there is no beginning or ending of one or the other.
And this is you regurgitating what you think you know. You didn’t look. How can you say this when all your previous answers with regards location of experience are all about a body and feeling sensations! I know you didn’t look.

I can only point…YOU HAVE TO LOOK. And I don’t mean occasionally. I mean everyday…throughout your day…day in and day out. If you are not willing to do this…then we are not going to get anywhere. It is the LOOKING that brings about the realisation of there being no separate self.
Go to the sensation at the soles of the feet. Would you label that sensation ‘fear’? Or is it just a neutral, undefined tingling sensation?
Now compare the sensation of the soles of the feet – which is just neutral sensation – and the sensation in your chest (labelled ‘fear’)…what is the difference between them?
Thought would say one is a little more ‘intense’, but apart from that – any difference
They are both just sensations and it is just the mind that tells me differently. I have been in such a strong habit all my life of associating sensations and feelings with a me/self that each time I do that I'm reinforcing and solidifying that image. It's no wonder that there has been resistance and blockages to this process of seeing that's there's no self.
The “mind” isn’t telling you anything! There is no mind beyond thoughts. Thoughts are simply appearing and have no idea what they are on about. I gave you the following exercise for you to use to see what is AE and what are thoughts about AE but you are not using it. You are not using any of the tools or exercises I have given you throughout this exploration as a means for you to help yourself to seeing there is no separate self.

A great tool to use to see whether thought is adding “virtual layers” via stories about experience, is to replace the thought itself with “blahblahblah” to see if what thought is referring to remains. The more complex the idea, the more “virtual layers” have been added. So the layers of the story, which are pure fantasy need to be stripped away, until all that remains is the bare bones.

A simple example is if thought appears saying “I am confused”. Does the thought “I am confused” contain any actual confusion? Replace that thought with “blahblahblah” and see what remains. Let me know how you go.


I am not going to apologise for bringing out the zen stick. You need to commit to yourself and your own guiding process and you need to commit to LOOKING everyday.

Kay
Nothing real can be threatened. Nothing unreal exists.
https://freedomalreadyis.com/

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Re: West Cork Ireland- asking for Kay

Postby Clashnacrona » Sun May 19, 2019 8:44 am

Hi Kay,

Yes I hear you and thank you for setting me straight I need to hear it. I can see that I'm getting caught up in thought story a lot. I'll look at those can exercises you gave me and get back to you in a couple of days. I have my girls until this evening then working a long day tomorrow but I'll keep the focus on looking and post a response on Wednesday.

Take Care

Ado

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Re: West Cork Ireland- asking for Kay

Postby forgetmenot » Sun May 19, 2019 9:11 am

Hi Ado,

I hope you do start to look...not for me...I have already seen. I hope you have enough consideration for yourself, so that you start to look for you, so that you have the realisation!

Looking is a nice simple thing - there is no need to over-complicate it.

Just look now...a thought can be found, but can a thinker of thought be found?
Can an “I” be found in thought itself?

Sound can be found, but can a hearer of sounds be found?
Can an “I” be found in sound itself?

Colour can be found, but can a see-er of colour be found?
Can an “I” be found in colour itself?

Sensation can be found, but can a feeler of sensation be found?
Can an “I” be found in sensation itself?

Smell can be found, but can a smeller of smell be found?
Can an “I” be found in smell itself?

Taste can be found, but can a taster of taste be found?
Can an “I” be found in taste itself?

Experience can be found, but can an experiencer of experience be found?
It's as simple as that. Just look and see what is actually present - and what is only imaginary.

Kay
Nothing real can be threatened. Nothing unreal exists.
https://freedomalreadyis.com/

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Re: West Cork Ireland- asking for Kay

Postby Clashnacrona » Tue May 21, 2019 10:53 am

Hi Kay,

Just wanted to check in with you quickly before I go to work. I have been looking a lot in the last few days and I haven't really stopped looking at all but I can see that I had lost focus a little on this process. I have done the exercise with the hands feet legs stomach arms and head and it is clear to me that the sensations of these body parts do run in parralel to the sight of them. It is a strange feeling. It goes against all the structures and beliefs I have about my body.
And around where is the pain located its starting to dawn on me that it is just thought that tells me its located in the finger and that without taking thought into account the pain/sensation is just there but not particularly anywhere. Anyhow I'll keep looking and I'll send a more lengthy post tomorrow afternoon.

Take Care

Ado


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