West Cork Ireland- asking for Kay

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Re: West Cork Ireland- asking for Kay

Postby forgetmenot » Tue Apr 09, 2019 11:59 pm

Hey Ado,
I really don’t understand what happened with this experiment but there definitely didn’t seem to be a me doing the choosing.
Although ‘science’ cannot be found as AE, this clip shows how scientists have revealed that decisions are made seconds before we become aware of them.

https://vimeo.com/90101368

We have looked at the idea of a controller, decider and chooser, and although we touched on the following experiment earlier, as a means to see if there is a choice in what is being awared; this experiment also helps to see through the idea of doership.

Take a few relaxed breaths to let the dust settle for a while, and then:
Look on your right.
Then look on your left.
Finally, bring your head back to centre, close your eyes and look in front.

Okay, so when you look on the right, the view on the right is seen (whatever that is).
When you look on the left, the view on the left is seen (whatever that is).
And then, when you look in front of you with eyes closed, the view in front is seen (ie ‘black space’).

So, when the view on the right is seen, do you have the ‘choice’ not to see? I’m not asking can you ‘choose’ to see something else like another view or ‘black space’ if you close your eyes. The question is, can you turn seeing off? Can you NOT see what is seen?

Same thing with the view on the left, can you NOT see the view on the left?

Same thing with the view in front with closed eyes, can you NOT see the ‘black space’?

Can you turn off seeing?

What did the 'chooser' choose? Did a 'self' choose something?

If you can't choose what you're aware of, then what else is there to choose?


Kay
Nothing real can be threatened. Nothing unreal exists.
https://freedomalreadyis.com/

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Re: West Cork Ireland- asking for Kay

Postby Clashnacrona » Wed Apr 10, 2019 9:54 pm

Hi Kay,

That vimeo piece was fascinating and certainly proof that consciousness leads the way and not the mind.

I did the experiment with looking right and left and straight ahead a couple of times on a break in work and also when I got home.
So, when the view on the right is seen, do you have the ‘choice’ not to see? I’m not asking can you ‘choose’ to see something else like another view or ‘black space’ if you close your eyes. The question is, can you turn seeing off? Can you NOT see what is seen?
I couldn't turn off seeing.
Same thing with the view on the left, can you NOT see the view on the left?
I couldn't turn off that seeing either.
Same thing with the view in front with closed eyes, can you NOT see the ‘black space’?
No I couldn't turn off that seeing as well.
Can you turn off seeing?
I certainly can’t turn seeing off seeing is just seeing and there is no control over what can and can’t be seen looking left, right and straight ahead with the eyes closed. Thought did try to tell me that if I was ‘thinking’ about something then I wouldn’t be seeing because I would be caught up in imagination but the seeing is still seen I just wouldn’t be present to it if I’m caught up in imagination. It's the same thing as not remembering parts of a car journey because of spacing out and not being present to the ongoing now but seeing still saw every detail of the car journey.
What did the 'chooser' choose? Did a 'self' choose something?
There was no self to do any choosing.

If you can't choose what you're aware of, then what else is there to choose?
This is very profound and I can see that it's true but I am finding it a little difficult to get my head around it. So you’re basically saying that there is no choice whatsoever and that knowing knows everything before it even happens. Does that mean that every single detail of our lives are already mapped out by knowing including whether or not self realisation will happen for this being right here.



All the best

Ado

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Re: West Cork Ireland- asking for Kay

Postby forgetmenot » Thu Apr 11, 2019 12:18 am

Hello Ado,
That vimeo piece was fascinating and certainly proof that consciousness leads the way and not the mind
That clip wasn’t about experience (aka consciousness) leading the way. It was merely showing you that decisions are not made by a self. Decisions, which are nothing more than a thought appear when they appear, and thought comes in and claims the decision by suggesting that “I just made this decision’ or “I made that decision yesterday” etc. The label ‘decision’ is AE of thought and not AE of a decision.
Can you turn off seeing?
I certainly can’t turn seeing off seeing is just seeing and there is no control over what can and can’t be seen looking left, right and straight ahead with the eyes closed. Thought did try to tell me that if I was ‘thinking’ about something then I wouldn’t be seeing because I would be caught up in imagination but the seeing is still seen I just wouldn’t be present to it if I’m caught up in imagination. It's the same thing as not remembering parts of a car journey because of spacing out and not being present to the ongoing now but seeing still saw every detail of the car journey.
Yes…and spacing out on a car journey when you are the driver, also shows that there is no one controlling anything.
If you can't choose what you're aware of, then what else is there to choose?
This is very profound and I can see that it's true but I am finding it a little difficult to get my head around it.
Is it true that thought is trying to understand something, that it knows something, and that it is having a hard time digesting something? Or are thoughts simply repeating their story, with variations about something trying to figure out the story?
So you’re basically saying that there is no choice whatsoever and that knowing knows everything before it even happens. Does that mean that every single detail of our lives are already mapped out by knowing including whether or not self realisation will happen for this being right here.
No, I am not saying anything. It is via you looking that you find the answers.

Experience could never have any preferences or make decisions because experience doesn't think thoughts, it is simply aware of thoughts which appear in/as the show.

Is "knowing" (consciousness), separate from what is “known", or are they one and the same?
Can there be a 'knowing' without a 'known' or vice versa?


Where does a thought (known) end and the knowing of it begin? Is there a dividing line between the known and the knowing of it?

However, I have no idea how you made the leap that knowing knows everything before it happens! That is the assumption that separation exists and that there is something actually happening TO a someone or a something; and that time exists ie something becomes before or after something else.

Is there anything actually happening to smell, taste, sound, colour, thought and sensation, or are thoughts telling a story about something happening to smell, taste, sound etc ?

So where does "awareness" end and "awared" begin? If they cannot be separated in any way (and they can't), then what sense does a "choice" even make?


Kay
Nothing real can be threatened. Nothing unreal exists.
https://freedomalreadyis.com/

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Re: West Cork Ireland- asking for Kay

Postby Clashnacrona » Fri Apr 12, 2019 4:56 pm

Hi Kay,
Is "knowing" (consciousness), separate from what is “known", or are they one and the same?
Can there be a 'knowing' without a 'known' or vice versa?
Without a self, and without thought telling me there is a self, knowing and known are one and the same. There is no separateness or dividing line between them.
Where does a thought (known) end and the knowing of it begin? Is there a dividing line between the known and the knowing of it?
Again without the idea or concept of a separation there is no beginning or end to thought (known) and the knowing of thought. They come from the same source or are the same source and there is no dividing line between them.

Is there anything actually happening to smell, taste, sound, colour, thought and sensation, or are thoughts telling a story about something happening to smell, taste, sound etc ?
There is nothing happening to smell, taste, sound, colour, thought or sensation, they just are. It is only thought that tries to tell me that something is happening to them.
So where does "awareness" end and "awared" begin? If they cannot be separated in any way (and they can't), then what sense does a "choice" even make?
When you put it like that it makes complete sense that decisions just appear and happen before the conscious mind is even aware of them being made so therefore there is no choice and it all is just happening in consciousness/knowing. Thought will try and tell me that ‘I’ made the choice or decision but in fact it was already happening in consciousness before thought hijacked it and claimed it as its own.

Take Care

Ado

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Re: West Cork Ireland- asking for Kay

Postby forgetmenot » Fri Apr 12, 2019 10:57 pm

Good morning Ado,
Is "knowing" (consciousness), separate from what is “known", or are they one and the same?
Can there be a 'knowing' without a 'known' or vice versa?
Without a self, and without thought telling me there is a self, knowing and known are one and the same. There is no separateness or dividing line between them.
Exactly! So does it matter what thought says? Thought will continue to appear suggesting that there is a separate self and that there is subject/object split and that life is happening TO someone/something. Just because thought appears suggesting this…does it make it so?

When you saw that Santa Claus was not real….did life change? Maybe some expectations subsided because you knew there was no Santa Claus who left presents under the tree. However, life went on. Christmas still comes and goes, Santa is still seen at Christmas time and gifts are still exchanged! Did thoughts about Christmas, Santa Claus etc disappear? No, they still appear. Is there a choice to whether or not they appear? No. Life continues on but is happening to no one. So why is the separate self any different to Santa?
Where does a thought (known) end and the knowing of it begin? Is there a dividing line between the known and the knowing of it?
Again without the idea or concept of a separation there is no beginning or end to thought (known) and the knowing of thought. They come from the same source or are the same source and there is no dividing line between them.
Yes. Thought, as thought describes itself, is story. Experience is not divided…it is whole and seamless. It is only thought that describes itself and gives itself meaning and a seeming life of its own. Thought isn't known because of its appearance or its content (which is further thought)...it is known because it is experience/THIS (I AM). A thought is not an object which is known by a subject. It is known because it is experience itself which thought has divided and ‘labelled itself’ as thought.

The label ‘thought’ is AE, but the thoughts about what a thought is, what it does, what it means, what it is occurring to etc are content of that label/thought! So the content of thought is simply further thought. Thought, in and of itself does not contain any experience, if it did you would be able to taste the word ‘sweet’.
Is there anything actually happening to smell, taste, sound, colour, thought and sensation, or are thoughts telling a story about something happening to smell, taste, sound etc ?
There is nothing happening to smell, taste, sound, colour, thought or sensation, they just are. It is only thought that tries to tell me that something is happening to them.
What 'me'? There is no dividing line between what is known and the knowing of it, where is this 'me' that thought is telling something is happening to?

There is no colour AND sensation AND smell AND taste AND sound AND thought. There is no AND. The AND points to division. As soon as experience/THIS has been labelled it becomes divided. It becomes divided into 6 main categories: - sound AND smell AND thought AND colour AND taste AND sensation. If you take away the AND it is soundsmellthoughtcolourtastesensation which denotes that there is no division. However, the ‘thinking mind’ still sees even that as separate words pointing to experience having 6 different forms.
So let’s replace soundsmellthoughtcolourtastesensation with just X.
X = experience/THIS exactly as it is.
So where does "awareness" end and "awared" begin? If they cannot be separated in any way (and they can't), then what sense does a "choice" even make?
When you put it like that it makes complete sense that decisions just appear and happen before the conscious mind is even aware of them being made so therefore there is no choice and it all is just happening in consciousness/knowing. Thought will try and tell me that ‘I’ made the choice or decision but in fact it was already happening in consciousness before thought hijacked it and claimed it as its own.
There is no “conscious mind”. Where exactly is this “conscious mind”. What is the AE of “conscious mind”?

You are still referring to yourself as a person…a person with a conscious mind that something is happening to. That there is some entity or thing that is determining what thoughts you have and when you will have them. That there are things happening in some mystical unknown place, out of your awareness and are then ‘sent to or given to’ you!

Can a thought happen without you knowing of the thought? Where do these thoughts hide until the ‘conscious mind’ receives them? Is there a parking bay somewhere where thoughts wait until some sort of signal is given them and then they make their way into something called the subconscious mind so that you can then think them?

You are aware of the letters on the screen now, right? Are awareness and letters separate? Could these letters exist without you knowing of them? Would knowing of the letters exist without the letters?


You are not looking Ado. The youtube clip…shows how this is happening to a person.
What is the AE of a person?

Science has no basis in AE. The clip was just to show you that there is no one making decisions. Thoughts labelled as decisions…just simply arise like any other thought, because they are just another thought. The label ‘decision’ is just a label that thought appoints to other thoughts. They have no qualitative distinctions. There is no hierarchy of thought. One thought is not any different or more meaningful than another. It is thought that seeming labels thoughts as ‘judgemental thought’, ‘belief’, ‘decisions’, ‘positive thought’, negative thought’ etc. Thoughts have no more meaning than &$^T*&#Y(@^%*!! You can’t find where a thought comes from for one simple reason it’s not a thing!

Kay
Nothing real can be threatened. Nothing unreal exists.
https://freedomalreadyis.com/

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Re: West Cork Ireland- asking for Kay

Postby Clashnacrona » Sat Apr 13, 2019 1:17 pm

Hi Kay,

I have my girls with me for the weekend so I'll try and get to this later or at the latest tomorrow.

All the best

Ado

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Re: West Cork Ireland- asking for Kay

Postby Clashnacrona » Sun Apr 14, 2019 9:51 pm

Hi Kay,

As I mentioned in my e-mail to you there has been a lot of yo yoing back and forth between the seeing that there is no separate self to being right back into fully believing the I thought again especially when there is difficult emotions coming up around my daughters. This is a natural part of this investigation process and the feelings definitely aren’t sticking as much as before.

Exactly! So does it matter what thought says? Thought will continue to appear suggesting that there is a separate self and that there is subject/object split and that life is happening TO someone/something. Just because thought appears suggesting this…does it make it so?
I know this is true but I am finding it incredible hard to stay with that truth….. thought has taken a strong hold again and I find myself being sucked into it again. My girls were very emotional and upset earlier and I'm finding it very hard to see it as just thought and emotion that just needs to pass through. No there is no self without thought appearing to suggest it is there is an I.
What 'me'? There is no dividing line between what is known and the knowing of it, where is this 'me' that thought is telling something is happening to?


The me is only there in thought and imagination but the last couple of days have been really emotional and the I thought has been very strong. It is 3 steps forward and 2 back with this process and it feels like I have taken 2 steps back these few days.
There is no “conscious mind”. Where exactly is this “conscious mind”. What is the AE of “conscious mind”?
The AE is conscious mind is only a thought. There is no conscious mind that is separate from knowing without the I thought.
Can a thought happen without you knowing of the thought?
Thought just appears so the knowing of it and the appearance of it happen simultaneously.
Where do these thoughts hide until the ‘conscious mind’ receives them?
They don’t hide anywhere they just appear. The ‘concoius mind’ is just another thought, idea or concept which are all thoughts.

Is there a parking bay somewhere where thoughts wait until some sort of signal is given them and then they make their way into something called the subconscious mind so that you can then think them?
No there is no parking bay for thoughts they just appear and move on there is no subconscious mind controlling when thoughts appear or manifest. They just are.
You are aware of the letters on the screen now, right?
Yes
Are awareness and letters separate? Could these letters exist without you knowing of them? Would knowing of the letters exist without the letters?
Letters and awareness of them are one and the same thing. One cannot exist without the other since everything is already in knowing.
You are not looking Ado. The youtube clip…shows how this is happening to a person.
What is the AE of a person?
The AE of a person is the AE of thought, the AE of specifically the I thought.

All the best

Ado

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Re: West Cork Ireland- asking for Kay

Postby forgetmenot » Mon Apr 15, 2019 9:12 am

Hey Ado,
Exactly! So does it matter what thought says? Thought will continue to appear suggesting that there is a separate self and that there is subject/object split and that life is happening TO someone/something. Just because thought appears suggesting this…does it make it so?
I know this is true but I am finding it incredible hard to stay with that truth….. thought has taken a strong hold again and I find myself being sucked into it again.
This is just a thought as well.

A thought appears and is hooked into, and with that, the re-identification of a separate self appears. This then SEEMS to give rise to increased body reactions and increased thoughts about those body reactions! It is this looping that builds momentum and the story of a ‘me’ comes, once again to life. Even when the thoughts seems to be strong...looking to see if you can find anyone or anything that is getting 'sucked in' by the thoughts is important.
Can a thought happen without you knowing of the thought?
Thought just appears so the knowing of it and the appearance of it happen simultaneously.
Yes...they happen as one - not so much simultaneously as that points to two. They are one and the same thing.
You are not looking Ado. The youtube clip…shows how this is happening to a person.
What is the AE of a person?
The AE of a person is the AE of thought, the AE of specifically the I thought.
Yes, the AE of a person is thought.

The label 'person' is AE of thought and not AE of a person
Sensation labelled as 'person' is AE of sensation and not AE of person
Image labelled as 'person' is AE of colour and not AE of a person
The thoughts about a person (the content of the thought 'person') is AE of thought and not AE of a person.

So can colour or label or sensation or thought know when a decision has been made?

A thought, in and of itself is like a container.
The content of a thought is what a thought is ABOUT

When a thought is seen only as a container, and the content of a thought (what it’s about) is being ignored - this is what is called actual experience of a thought. Do you see the difference?

So, we can say, that in actual experience, the arising of a thought (the container) is real, but what it’s ABOUT, the content, is not. The thought (as container) is there in reality, but the content of a thought is fiction. Do you see the difference?


When it comes to labels, there is a belief that labels have a one-to-one correspondence with ‘reality’. But there isn’t. It is a generally accepted belief that labels like ‘good’ and ‘bad’ are inherent characteristics of ‘things’. But actually, they are not.

When you look at the word label ‘GREEN’, what is the actual experience?
Is the colour red experienced, or is the colour green experienced as the label suggests?
Do the labels have a one-to-one correspondence with ‘reality’?
Or do the labels suggest something else other than what is here and now (red colour)?
Is green-ness inherent attributes of the experience of the colour red, or is green just a word label on the experience of the colour red?

If the label
‘GREEN’ is replaced with the label ‘GOOD’ or ‘BAD’, is the redness affected in any way as the labels suggests?
Does redness become ‘good’ or ‘bad’, or do the labels have no effect whatsoever on ‘reality’?


I sent you a PM…do that exercise for a couple of days and let me know how you go.

Kay
Nothing real can be threatened. Nothing unreal exists.
https://freedomalreadyis.com/

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Re: West Cork Ireland- asking for Kay

Postby Clashnacrona » Mon Apr 15, 2019 5:39 pm

Hi Kay,

Here are the responses to your post.
So can colour or label or sensation or thought know when a decision has been made?


No

When a thought is seen only as a container, and the content of a thought (what it’s about) is being ignored - this is what is called actual experience of a thought. Do you see the difference?
So, we can say, that in actual experience, the arising of a thought (the container) is real, but what it’s ABOUT, the content, is not. The thought (as container) is there in reality, but the content of a thought is fiction. Do you see the difference?
Yes that makes complete sense so the container or vessel of thought is known but the contents are a complete fabrication.

When you look at the word label ‘GREEN’, what is the actual experience?
Is the colour red experienced, or is the colour green experienced as the label suggests?
Again this also makes total sense that the even thought the work green is typed in a red colour the AE of the word is red since that is what is seen. The label green is only a suggestion but what is known is the work green is typed in a red font.
Do the labels have a one-to-one correspondence with ‘reality’?
No.
Or do the labels suggest something else other than what is here and now (red colour)?
Is green-ness inherent attributes of the experience of the colour red, or is green just a word label on the experience of the colour red
?

AS I have mentioned above the AE of the word green typed in red font is the colour red and the fact that the actual typed word is green and as you say it is only a word label on the colour red.

If the label ‘GREEN’ is replaced with the label ‘GOOD’ or ‘BAD’, is the redness affected in any way as the labels suggests?
Does redness become ‘good’ or ‘bad’, or do the labels have no effect whatsoever on ‘reality’?
They are all just labels and can’t possibly have any effect on reality because a label is just another thought or more precisely the content of a thought container which means nothing in reality.

All the best

Ado

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Re: West Cork Ireland- asking for Kay

Postby forgetmenot » Tue Apr 16, 2019 12:45 am

Hello Ado,

This might be a good time for you to reread your thread from beginning to end. Redo exercises that you feel to do again. Read your thread thoroughly by taking your time doing so. This will take you several days. Report back what you notice once you have read it through carefully.

Kay
Nothing real can be threatened. Nothing unreal exists.
https://freedomalreadyis.com/

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Re: West Cork Ireland- asking for Kay

Postby Clashnacrona » Tue Apr 16, 2019 11:19 am

Hi Kay,

I'm on nights from tomorrow evening until the following Monday morning so I'll have a read of the thread over the next few nights but I probably won't get to post a respond until I finish nights.

All the best

Ado

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Re: West Cork Ireland- asking for Kay

Postby forgetmenot » Tue Apr 16, 2019 5:08 pm

Hey Ado, that's okay. Just remember to do the looking each day when emotions appear. It is important to be consistent with looking on a daily basis.

Kay
Nothing real can be threatened. Nothing unreal exists.
https://freedomalreadyis.com/

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Re: West Cork Ireland- asking for Kay

Postby Clashnacrona » Sat May 04, 2019 7:23 pm

Hi Kay,

I left a pm for you a few days ago not sure if you've seen it yet. I'm going through my thread very slowly as I have the girls with me till tomorrow evening then I'll have more time to get it finished.

Take Care

Ado

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Re: West Cork Ireland- asking for Kay

Postby forgetmenot » Sat May 04, 2019 11:15 pm

No PM received. When sending PM's you have to check that you have a subject line, otherwise it doesn't send it.

Kay
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https://freedomalreadyis.com/

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Re: West Cork Ireland- asking for Kay

Postby Clashnacrona » Mon May 06, 2019 9:59 am

Hi Kay,

There seems to be a lot of procrastination happening re getting my thread review finished so I could do with some guidance on where to go from here. There are lots of thoughts of resistance and while I know they are only thoughts there's a feeling of walking through sludge with very little want or motivation to keep moving forward with the inquiring. I have been doing the emotion releasing exercise and it is effective but I could do with some more help so any suggestions would be greatly appreciated.

Take Care

Ado


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