Drawn to the gate

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Wildsprout
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Drawn to the gate

Postby Wildsprout » Tue Feb 05, 2019 7:02 pm

LU is focused guiding for seeing there is no real, inherent 'self' - what do you understand by this?

Everything just is... thoughts, feelings and sensations string together to create what seems to be a self but it does not exist.

What are you looking for at LU?

So frustrated, have caught glimpses yet the conditioned sense of self, the drive of the ego, are too strong and continue to renew themselves. I have tried several approaches but conditioning just takes over again. I want to see once and for all that I am not in charge, I don’t need to do anything or become anything. I am so tired of feeling dissatisfied and wanting wanting wanting more out of life including spiritual life. I want to see through this veil, see reality as it is and not as I have been conditioned to see. I want peace and freedom and stillness and to fall into the flow of life as it really is.

What do you expect from a guided conversation?

Pointers, questions, guidance to find the way to this veil and beyond it. I have read Gateless Gatecrashers and some of the forum so I understand the type of inquiry and that it is pointed and not philosophical or conceptual in nature.

What is your experience in terms of spiritual practices, seeking and inquiry?

Meditation and yoga for many years, the Presence Process 2x, many glimpses, I think, and a growing sense of urgency to release all of this frantic need to do, seek, become, and achieve.

On a scale from 1 to 10, how willing are you to question any currently held beliefs about 'self? 10

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Jadzia
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Re: Drawn to the gate

Postby Jadzia » Thu Feb 07, 2019 1:21 pm

Hi wildsprout,

If you like we can walk toghether for a while.
I want peace and freedom and stillness and to fall into the flow of life as it really is.
What if it isn't about this? About peace and freedom?
What else do you expect from realizing that self isn't an entity which is separate from everything else?

Love,
Jadzia

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Wildsprout
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Re: Drawn to the gate

Postby Wildsprout » Thu Feb 07, 2019 8:20 pm

If it is not about peace and freedom that is ok I suppose... I want to know the truth and it seems there will be some release from all the searching and trying and wondering that I am getting so frustrated about.

I have this mental concept of what I think I will find in the “other side of the gate”. I realize that it cannot be the way I imagine, but there is an idea that has come from some glimpses which may have been true glimpses or maybe they were just thoughts. The expectation is that there would be a perception of life as a flowing whole, more like being immersed in a movie rather than having a sense of being a separate entity walking around and relating to other separate objects. There would be less of a drive to always have to think and figure things out and know what to do, make decisions... there would be a letting go and knowledge that this letting go would allow life to flow as it was going to anyway but without all the stress and resistance. Also less of a sense of personal desires for my life and no need for fulfillment, instead a sense of being part of the flow and being exactly in the only right place that there is.

I feel a little silly writing that out but this is honestly what my expectations are... that those changes would then relieve me of this endless wanting and trying and pushing for fulfillment and peace.... just a release from all of that and to me that sounds like freedom.


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Wildsprout
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Re: Drawn to the gate

Postby Wildsprout » Thu Feb 07, 2019 8:23 pm

And Jadzia thank you, by the way, for your response and your time <3


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Jadzia
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Re: Drawn to the gate

Postby Jadzia » Thu Feb 07, 2019 10:13 pm

I have this mental concept of what I think I will find in the “other side of the gate”. I realize that it cannot be the way I imagine, but there is an idea that has come from some glimpses which may have been true glimpses or maybe they were just thoughts. The expectation is that there would be a perception of life as a flowing whole, more like being immersed in a movie rather than having a sense of being a separate entity walking around and relating to other separate objects. There would be less of a drive to always have to think and figure things out and know what to do, make decisions... there would be a letting go and knowledge that this letting go would allow life to flow as it was going to anyway but without all the stress and resistance. Also less of a sense of personal desires for my life and no need for fulfillment, instead a sense of being part of the flow and being exactly in the only right place that there is.
No need to feel silly about any of this. This expectations are pretty much realistic and describe very well what will happen after gating, eventually. Usually it won't be a big bang and 'poof' it will be like that, but it will develope into this direction over the time.
Seems like you had nice glimpses. :-)

What gives information that there isn't peace and freedom right now? What seems to disturb it, is it true?
Does the sense of self has to disappear to show one gated, or might it stay on? Would it be a problem?
Has the self ever been the separate entity, doing the thinking and figuring out, making the choices and decisions? Really?
What gives information about the self?

Love,
Jadzia

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Wildsprout
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Re: Drawn to the gate

Postby Wildsprout » Thu Feb 07, 2019 10:36 pm

What gives information that there isn't peace and freedom right now? What seems to disturb it, is it true?
There is peace and freedom right now, but it feels as though I can very rarely feel it because it seems covered up by noisy thoughts, desires, judgments. If those were not there all the time, or if somehow they could be ignored or given less importance, then the peace and freedom would be felt. There are times I can access this briefly, but then things come along and I get caught up again in everything. Lately, there is an added layer of frustration and judgment about the fact that I have had these glimpses of realization and it feels like something has really shifted, and then a moment later it is back to the same racket as usual.
Does the sense of self has to disappear to show one gated, or might it stay on? Would it be a problem?
There could still be a sense of self, I think there would still be some sense of self because that is the way to relate to experience and continue to interact with life. The sense of self would not be a problem if it were seen to be just a 'sense' and not believed to be solid and true.
Has the self ever been the separate entity, doing the thinking and figuring out, making the choices and decisions? Really?
Mentally, I understand and believe that the self has never been a separate entity doing the thinking, making the choices. However, in experience, it still feels very much most of the time that yes, I am an entity with free will, I have the responsibility to make choices and guide my life in a certain direction, and it is such a heavy burden. Again, there have been glimpses of the absence of 'me'... glimpses of the emptiness, the space where there is nothing solid and nothing holding together all of these thoughts and concepts about who I am and what my life was, is, and will be.... but day to day, it usually feels still very solid and convincing that there is something enduring that is 'me' living in this world.
What gives information about the self?
I suppose what gives information about the self is just thoughts about self... also, what is experienced to be interaction with others in the world who call me by my name, and seem to know me. I have a child, he loves me and calls me 'mommy'... this gives a strong sense that there is a self here interacting with him, and of course that kind of thing happens all the time. In between though, the only thing that ties it all together are thoughts about myself and who I am and who I want to be.

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Jadzia
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Re: Drawn to the gate

Postby Jadzia » Fri Feb 08, 2019 6:27 am

There are times I can access this briefly, but then things come along and I get caught up again in everything. Lately, there is an added layer of frustration and judgment about the fact that I have had these glimpses of realization and it feels like something has really shifted, and then a moment later it is back to the same racket as usual.
Peace and freedom is always. Same racket as usual is always, too.
Do you know 3 D pictures? The ones you see lots of little pieces of cheese first and when you relax the background of your eyes the picture changes and suddenly you see a mouse eating cheese?
All these little pieces of cheese and the mouse are there at the same time, being the same picture.
So what gives the idea that one is more important, wonderful or more worth as the other?
There could still be a sense of self, I think there would still be some sense of self because that is the way to relate to experience and continue to interact with life. The sense of self would not be a problem if it were seen to be just a 'sense' and not believed to be solid and true.
Exactly.
I suppose what gives information about the self is just thoughts about self...
Where else could the I, the separate self be found? Have a look.
Can you find it when you use your senses? Can you hear it, see it, smell it, taste it, feel it (like in a physical sensation)?
Does it have a weight or a form?
Take your time and look everywhere.

Love,
Jadzia

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Wildsprout
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Re: Drawn to the gate

Postby Wildsprout » Fri Feb 08, 2019 10:51 pm

Hi Jadzia,

Thanks for the reply... have been looking for the answers to these questions...
Where else could the I, the separate self be found? Have a look.
Can you find it when you use your senses? Can you hear it, see it, smell it, taste it, feel it (like in a physical sensation)?
Does it have a weight or a form?
Take your time and look everywhere.
I can't find the separate self with any senses. There is no place where it can be found. There are some sensations of density that seem to be in the body, but that's not really the sense of self.... just sensations that seem to be "me". There are sights, sounds, feelings.... none of them are of a self really. There is a feeling of self that is based in perspective on the world.... it is just a perspective, not anything of substance.

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Jadzia
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Re: Drawn to the gate

Postby Jadzia » Sat Feb 09, 2019 9:11 am

I can't find the separate self with any senses. There is no place where it can be found.
Right. It cannot be found via senses, so where is it found?
There are some sensations of density that seem to be in the body, but that's not really the sense of self.... just sensations that seem to be "me".
What gives the information that the sensation is density? That seems to be in a body`?
What gives information that there is a something which is a me?
There is a feeling of self that is based in perspective on the world.... it is just a perspective, not anything of substance.
What gives the perspective, what offers the narrative, the story?

The sense of self is a sense of being alive, right? A sense of being? Does it need a name? What if it would be called, tomato, or Isdraig, would that make any difference?

Love,
Jadzia

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Wildsprout
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Re: Drawn to the gate

Postby Wildsprout » Sat Feb 09, 2019 9:40 pm

It cannot be found via senses, so where is it found?
When I look, I don't find it. Yet, it seems to be there. It seems to be there I think only because I have always thought it was there, and acted if it was there, and the world seems to behave as if it were there.
What gives the information that the sensation is density? That seems to be in a body`?
What gives information that there is a something which is a me?
I don't know how to answer... it feels as if something is there. Is it just because I have always assumed it is there? I feel sensations that seem to be localized in the body. Those feelings and sensations often come up, and they always seem to be occurring in the same places, the places that are labeled the body. When I pay attention I can feel those sensations as the body and this gives the information that I am somehow in the body.
What gives the perspective, what offers the narrative, the story?
The perspective comes from the senses - there is seeing that always appears to be seeing from the perspective of these eyes, with corresponding smells, tastes, sensations - they all seem to come from the perspective of this body, this is basically the same body all the time, the body of "me" though it changes slowly, grows older - there is a continuity to the body and the story of the life which is made up of thoughts, feelings, sensations, memories (thoughts)...
The sense of self is a sense of being alive, right? A sense of being? Does it need a name? What if it would be called, tomato, or Isdraig, would that make any difference?
The sense of self is a sense of being alive, and it is also the perspective of always being alive from the point of view of this one body, with continuity in this one part of the universe, 'my life'...

I have had a thread on this forum before, a year ago or so. I am having the same feeling now that I had then... that when I try to answer these questions, I just feel frustrated and it feels as though struggling to answer is taking me further away from any kind of understanding rather than closer to it. I am not sure if that is just resistance, if it is because this is not the right path, or what. There is frustration and sadness as it feels that this is an exercise in futility, another way of seeking and trying to get somewhere when it is all right here anyway... no offense to you or your questions at all Jadzia... this is a reflection of the frustration I was already feeling with the whole act of seeking. <3

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Jadzia
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Re: Drawn to the gate

Postby Jadzia » Sat Feb 09, 2019 10:06 pm

There is frustration and sadness as it feels that this is an exercise in futility, another way of seeking and trying to get somewhere when it is all right here anyway…..
This is part of the thought story, telling about the you, you are, what you are like and what your life or your experience is like.
Yes, it is right here to see – the truth – and yet, there is a conditioning to overcome to achieve/reach another overview, . The habit of believing the I to be something solid, real is strong, since thoughts tell long closely knitted stories which seemingly play from a singular, separate perspective.

Let us try a more step by step approach so that you can grow into the new overview.

What we use at LU is direct looking as opposed to relying on knowledge. One is looking and the other is thinking about.
Here is an example to illustrate the difference:
If I ask you what colour socks you are wearing right now you have two ways to come up with an answer:
• You can have a think about it, you can think back to this morning and try to remember putting your socks on, and you can probably tell me what colour you think they are.
• Alternatively, you can take a quick look at your socks and tell me what colour they actually are!

Hopefully you would agree that you can only be 100% certain by looking.
Here we are only interested in looking at and seeing what is actually going on in your present moment to moment experience. We are only interested in your direct experience in the moment.

Please let me know if you are clear about this or if you would like any further clarification.

Love,
Jadzia

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Wildsprout
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Re: Drawn to the gate

Postby Wildsprout » Sat Feb 09, 2019 10:36 pm

Ok, yes this is clear. I see that the frustration is part of the story... the story is so compelling and seems so real. I do want to see through it. I will do my best to stay with the direct looking at what is here right now... thank you

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Jadzia
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Re: Drawn to the gate

Postby Jadzia » Sun Feb 10, 2019 7:57 am

I see that the frustration is part of the story... the story is so compelling and seems so real.
Oh yes, there must be a reason why the story of separation/the separate self is so common, right? The story is compelling in that it seems to be seemless, which isn’t true but we get to that and that it is rattling on for the whole time. This makes the story pretty convincing. Nevertheless on closer look one can see the holes and gaps………….

As repetition: what is actual experience (AE)?
This is everything which can be experienced by senses right now at this moment.
So have a look at everything you can experience right now, can you experience something different than colour/shape (seeing), sound (hearing), smells, tastes, bodily sensations or appearing thoughts?
Does this sum it up? Check carefully.

Could one say that everything which isn’t smelled, tasted, heard, seen or felt in the sense of physical sensation is thought which appeared with a content?
I do want to see through it.
Step by step…..
Good news: the size of the steps isn’t important. It is the persistence and the persistent looking in a light hearted manner - too much effort actually makes it more difficult, so think of the lightness of a butterfly.

Love,
Jadzia

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Wildsprout
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Re: Drawn to the gate

Postby Wildsprout » Sun Feb 10, 2019 1:54 pm

Yes... the story really does seem to be seamless. Interested to see where the gaps are... will trust your guidance and take it step by step.
So have a look at everything you can experience right now, can you experience something different than colour/shape (seeing), sound (hearing), smells, tastes, bodily sensations or appearing thoughts?
Does this sum it up? Check carefully.
Right now: color and shape, sensations of touch, sound, taste, smell.... also thoughts and inner bodily sensation. Sensations, thoughts, and perceptions - that is all that is here right now.
Could one say that everything which isn’t smelled, tasted, heard, seen or felt in the sense of physical sensation is thought which appeared with a content?
So yes, everything that isn't a sensation - smell/taste/feeling/sound/sight - is a thought. Thoughts are here in the same space where the 5 senses are perceived, but when a thought is present it takes attention away from the perception of the 5 senses.

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Jadzia
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Re: Drawn to the gate

Postby Jadzia » Sun Feb 10, 2019 2:28 pm

Right now: color and shape, sensations of touch, sound, taste, smell.... also thoughts and inner bodily sensation. Sensations, thoughts, and perceptions - that is all that is here right now.
Here we have to be verrrry precise for the sake of understanding each other.
Five senses:
Seeing= colour/form
Hearing= sound
Smelling= smell
Tasting= taste
Feeling = physical sensation as in any perception in or outside of the body, bowel momement as well as sensation of touch.
and
Thought

This is the raw Actual Experience. We can only break it down this far since we still want to use words. ;-)
OK?

Now, the break everything around you, what you do ect down to the actual experience of it. You might have done this before but jump into it and have a bit of fun with it.
Here is an example using drinking a coffee:
So for example, when having breakfast, become aware of:-
Seeing a cup, simply= image/colour
Smelling coffee, simply = smell
Feeling the warmth of the coffee cup, simply = sensation
Tasting the coffee, simply = taste
Hearing the spoon stirring the coffee, simply = sound
Thought about drinking the coffee, simply = thought

Break your experience down like this to the raw experience (AE) and at observe what happens to the AE by thought.

When done share with me some of your examples and what you found.

Love,
Jadzia


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