Clear space

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Verananda
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Re: Clear space

Postby Verananda » Sat Jun 01, 2019 10:51 pm

Hi Ecalpemos
A. yes, I see that I am categorising and dividing the world up into 'objects'...
yes, thats it. Its all ok. Its about seeing this. Seeing that thought divide the world up into 'objects'. Is it like this?
For practical reasons we give things names. But that implies that there are things to name. I look and in AE there is colour, texture, movement, sound, shape, smell - the mind labels it all. Without the mind it is just those elements being experienced directly
Thats the question. Can we realy know from AE that there is an object , a thing somewhere out there, that is labled (=thought)? Or are there sensation + colour/image + sound + smell +taste and thought "build" objects out of it and give lables?
lso, in AE things aren't 'arising in awareness' - that makes it sound like they suddenly pop up from somewhere else. In AE there is an immediacy and an intimacy to the world,
to the world? a separation between you and the world? Or an intimacy with all experience, with all that is?
thought separates 'me' from 'it' and makes things 'other'. In AE nothing is 'other' things simply are, here and now.
are you using "things" a a synonym of "objects" ? ;-)
or is it "experience simply is, here and now" - does it make a difference for you? Or is it same?
They are connected, but I wonder if experience is the arising of sensations, feelings, thoughts within the field of awareness...
Can you seperate both?

Love Ve

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Ecalpemos
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Re: Clear space

Postby Ecalpemos » Mon Jun 03, 2019 10:10 am

Hi Ve

a separation between you and the world? Or an intimacy with all experience, with all that is?

A. An intimacy with all experience. There is no 'me and the world' except as a thought. In AE there is what's being experienced now.

are you using "things" a a synonym of "objects" ? ;-)
or is it "experience simply is, here and now" - does it make a difference for you? Or is it same?

A. Yes, I'm using things as a synonym for objects. By that I mean the things we commonly refer to as things / objects - e.g. tree, dog, cup etc. Experience is simply here and now, but that includes the concepts of tree, dog, cup etc.


Can we realy know from AE that there is an object , a thing somewhere out there, that is labled (=thought)? Or are there sensation + colour/image + sound + smell +taste and thought "build" objects out of it and give lables?

A. I don't know how to answer this... my dog is real to me. she's here with form and shape and life. a tree is the same. I see that 'dog' is a label I give her, and she is unknowable to me really, I have no idea what she is, but i know that she is!

I guess it depends on what you mean by 'object' - what is an object? I have no idea!

Is it a way to categorise and chop up 'the world'? probably, but it has a practical use. If I saw the world as one great swirling mass, how would that be? How would we function? I have no idea, I can't imagine it. Is 'object' simply an idea we use for practical reasons? I look around and in AE I experience colour, shape, form, sound, texture etc. The mind / thoughts 'make's objects out of them. But that doesn't mean that a tree doesn't exist - does it?


Love Ecalpemos

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Verananda
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Re: Clear space

Postby Verananda » Mon Jun 03, 2019 2:55 pm

Hi Ecalpemos
Is it a way to categorise and chop up 'the world'? probably, but it has a practical use. If I saw the world as one great swirling mass, how would that be? How would we function? I have no idea, I can't imagine it. Is 'object' simply an idea we use for practical reasons?
well, for me it both has its truth. We are living within this illusion. And within there are objects, others, dogs and nuts. and at the same time. Ignoring all this and ignoring the fact that there is also this undescrible feeling of beeing alive/present we would end up in nihilism. but it is also true, looking in direct experience we find only experience and this is realy "raw data". There is no proof "that the world is real".
I guess it depends on what you mean by 'object' - what is an object? I have no idea!
well, you also use this term, as you said as a synonym for "things" such as tree, dog, cup, body and nut.
sounds like seperate entities that we can give a lable?
I look around and in AE I experience colour, shape, form, sound, texture etc.
If you look very closely you will see that shape, form, and texure are not dierct experience.
It is all colour (or sensation) ..... and shape, form , object ... all that is build / constructed a very little after.
You can do an experiment: maybe on a walk in nature. close your eyes, choose a new view / direction of looking then open your eyes. Be very curious about the very first moments after opening. If you are realy attentive you can see how "reality is constructed". Is this very first impression with shape and form? is it 2D or 3D?
Tell me about your experience!
The mind / thoughts 'make's objects out of them. But that doesn't mean that a tree doesn't exist - does it?
What does it mean for you "it exists"/"it don't exist"?

Love Ve

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Ecalpemos
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Re: Clear space

Postby Ecalpemos » Wed Jun 05, 2019 9:37 pm

Hi Ve

I find I'm too much in my head with it again, so will step back and return to basics for a few days. I'm about to go travelling for a couple of months and internet access may be inconsistent, but I will be back in touch soon, and intend to use much of the time to focus on this.

Love Ecalpemos

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Verananda
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Re: Clear space

Postby Verananda » Thu Jun 06, 2019 8:05 pm

Fine!

I'm looking forward to hear from you
Love ve

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Ecalpemos
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Re: Clear space

Postby Ecalpemos » Sat Jun 15, 2019 5:42 pm

Hi Ve

I'm still here :-)

Currently travelling round France in campervan with dog. Was hoping that this time would give me space and solitude to focus on this, but it doesn't seem to be so. I know that is just an expectation, life simply flows. I feel like I've hit a wall with it and nothing makes sense any more, so am going to start from the beginning and work through our conversations.

I'll be in touch again soon...

Love Ecalpemos

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Verananda
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Re: Clear space

Postby Verananda » Mon Jun 17, 2019 10:27 am

Hi Escalpemos,

nice to hear from you!
Currently travelling round France in campervan with dog. Was hoping that this time would give me space and solitude to focus on this, but it doesn't seem to be so.
Life is wonderfull to investigate here and now. We don't need special meditation investigation time slots. It is flowing as you said.
I feel like I've hit a wall with it and nothing makes sense any more ....
would you explore this a bit?

the feeling of "hit a wall" and "I did not understand anything and I have to start from beginning" is a good sign ..... something new evolves ..... it is part of the process ....

Love Ve

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Ecalpemos
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Re: Clear space

Postby Ecalpemos » Mon Jun 17, 2019 8:37 pm

Hi Ve

Thanks for your encouraging message :-)

I've read through all our conversations and whilst it all makes sense it somehow seems flat and dull now. It is just words on a screen. So I guess I'm somewhere else, though there is only here, of course ;-)

I've been feeling wretched and sick of the endless jabbering thoughts. Thoughts say I've gone backwards, and I think I'll never 'get it' etc. blah, blah ... yes, just more thoughts.

Your previous post had this question -

The mind / thoughts 'make's objects out of them. But that doesn't mean that a tree doesn't exist - does it?
What does it mean for you "it exists"/"it don't exist"?

A. It is meaningless whether 'I' believe that the tree does / doesn't exist, because here it is! Exist /not exist are just thoughts anyway, and they don't alter my AE of 'tree' here and now. I have read the Zen Buddhist story of 'just tree' - and that's it! Irrelevant of labels / ideas / thoughts there is colour, shape and movement happening now.



Love Ecalpemos

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Ecalpemos
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Re: Clear space

Postby Ecalpemos » Tue Jun 18, 2019 9:06 pm

Hi Ve

I've been reading through all my journalling notes. There was a quote from the LU book - "self-centred humans always feel like something is wrong with them." This is it. I feel like there's something 'wrong' - but I don't know what that even means. When I look for myself I can't find anything. I can imagine 'me' - a woman with a familiar face, walking her dog, driving her van, and there's a body here, but I don't know where I am anymore. it's frightening and disorientating. I think I'm hiding from it because I dont' know what to do and there's strong preservation drive to hold things together. I think I'm afraid of going mad and being completely lost and gone.

Love Ecalpemos

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Verananda
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Re: Clear space

Postby Verananda » Tue Jun 18, 2019 10:29 pm

Hi Escalpemos,

I've read through all our conversations and whilst it all makes sense it somehow seems flat and dull now. It is just words on a screen. So I guess I'm somewhere else, though there is only here, of course ;-)
I'm happy about that! I wanted to say to you, that it does not make sense for me to read the old stuff .... so its fine that you see it ....
I feel like there's something 'wrong' - but I don't know what that even means. When I look for myself I can't find anything.
Is it realy a feeling? an actual experience? or is it more a thought that there is something wrong ... and maybe a experience / unpleasent feeling is following the thought? Observe this for a while!
I don't know where I am anymore. it's frightening and disorientating. I think I'm hiding from it because I dont' know what to do and there's strong preservation drive to hold things together. I think I'm afraid of going mad and being completely lost and gone.
here is the same: see what is "thought made" and what is actual experience?
can you feel this sense of aliveness, beeing here? is that touched / limited / decreased / increased by anything ? Is this aliveness ever not there?

Love Ve

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Verananda
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Re: Clear space

Postby Verananda » Wed Jun 19, 2019 11:18 am

Hi Escalpemos,

there is one more I want to share with you
but I don't know where I am anymore. it's frightening and disorientating. I think I'm hiding from it because I dont' know what to do and there's strong preservation drive to hold things together. I think I'm afraid of going mad and being completely lost and gone.
It is realy normal to go through such a period of disorientation. It shows that the change happened is not an pure intellectual on. It touches the whole system. It is helpfull in this period just to be with life as it is. Experiencing life, no matter if it is pleasent or unpleasent, seeing thoughts popping up and disappear. Be open to be touched by all of this.There is nothing to do with it.

Usually there will be a reengaging with life sometime later, often with new (or old) interests emerging. Everything can be seen as both real and unreal at the same time, and there is a realisation that life is there to be played.

much love Ve

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Ecalpemos
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Re: Clear space

Postby Ecalpemos » Wed Jun 19, 2019 3:58 pm

Thanks Ve

Your guidance is much appreciated and helps me a lot. I'll be in touch again soon.


Love Ecalpemos.

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Ecalpemos
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Re: Clear space

Postby Ecalpemos » Mon Jul 01, 2019 9:32 pm

Hi Ve

I hope all is well with you? Here's an update...

I was away travelling and have returned a couple of weeks earlier than planned. Once I would have said 'I changed my mind', but it was clear that there was no I changing its mind, no deciding process as such. Simply the mind had different thoughts. The change was sudden and not for any particular reason. It was interesting to observe the process, as my mind scrabbled around trying to make a 'story' out of it. But simply, thoughts were different and I came home. It felt simple and clear and I've not given it much thought since I returned.

I've always believed I make decisions, but this has been a clear experiencing of how it doesn't really work like that. I've put the van up for sale, and I notice there are anxious thoughts about wanting to sell it, what if it doesn't sell etc. Also ideas that once I've sold the van it will be ok. I notice that I have quite a lot of those 'when this happens, it will be fine' thoughts. All of which take me out of the now into some imaginary future.


Love Ecalpemos

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Verananda
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Re: Clear space

Postby Verananda » Fri Jul 05, 2019 8:13 am

Hi Escalpemos,

nice to hear you!
I was on a business trip, so sorry for my late answer.

Sound as "life is happenening"? :-)
I notice that I have quite a lot of those 'when this happens, it will be fine' thoughts. All of which take me out of the now into some imaginary future.
How is it to be with those thoughts? Are there other thoughts that say "I don't want these thoughts / I want to get ride of them / there is some more work to do for them to dissapear"? Or is it more a "sseing was is"? Maybe with some curiosity?

Is there still a searching for something? or more a curiosity about life?

Love Ve

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Ecalpemos
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Re: Clear space

Postby Ecalpemos » Sat Jul 06, 2019 10:44 am

Hi Ve
How is it to be with those thoughts? Are there other thoughts that say "I don't want these thoughts / I want to get ride of them / there is some more work to do for them to dissapear"? Or is it more a "sseing was is"? Maybe with some curiosity?

A. I still have thoughts about wanting to get rid of thoughts, but I can see it now. Sometimes curious, sometimes frustrating! There are thoughts that imagine some future point when 'I'm awake' and everything is always cool - but also a knowing that this is just a thought and a dream. There's no suffering without thought is understood, but thoughts still play out. Sometimes fearful thoughts arise and begin to spiral, but they are seen quickly now so tend to be observed and pass through.

Is there still a searching for something? or more a curiosity about life?

A. There's a bit of both. Lately, the spaciousness has been more apparent again and the connection with things. There are still thoughts about 'waking up' and imagining some point in the future, but they're not 'me' in the way they once seemed to be.


I go back to the 5 questions occasionally.
1) Is there a separate entity 'self', 'me' 'I', at all, anywhere, in any way, shape or form?
Was there ever?


When I look at the first question there's a peaceful space here. it's like i've run out of thinking! (which is probably a good thing). There's a sense of I / awareness here, but when I look everything arises equally and it's only a thought that says this is me / this isn't.

however, when i move on to the next questions there's no clarity to answer them with. only the mind trying to find the 'right' answers, not a clear seeing. I will continue to look!

Thanks for your ongoing guidance.


Love Ecalpemos


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