Clear space

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Ecalpemos
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Re: Clear space

Postby Ecalpemos » Mon May 20, 2019 10:41 pm

Hi Ve

What is realy the experience and what is a mental conclusion?
actual experience is sensation (with closed eyes), maybe also image / seeing.
try this out, what do you know for sure?


A. Actual experience of the body is sensations / movement, visual appearance and a tingling sense of aliveness. There's a sense of awareness / seeing the world being located somewhere behind my eyes. Within my experience there is an object here that is named 'the body'. It is arising within 'me' / awareness. Even without thoughts, there is still something arising in awareness that has a form to it.

is really known more than experiencing the sensation in this moment?
it would not mean "body has a material reality" is wrong.
it would mean it is part of thought.
We can certainly know if a thought is right or wrong?

A. Yes, the body is experienced as sensation in this moment. And a lot of the experiencing of 'my body' is then filtered through thoughts and the narrative about the body is created. But also, a lot of the time I'm not consciously aware of the body, it's just doing its thing without any narrative about it. There is still on some level an awareness of it, but no thoughts.


I've read statements about how the body is just an illusion, but I have no direct experiencing of this. I experience a body here and now. I no longer see / believe it as 'me' in the way I once did though.


Love Ecalpemos

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Verananda
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Re: Clear space

Postby Verananda » Wed May 22, 2019 7:58 am

Hi Ecalpemos
Actual experience of the body is sensations / movement, visual appearance and a tingling sense of aliveness. There's a sense of awareness / seeing the world being located somewhere behind my eyes. Within my experience there is an object here that is named 'the body'.
But also, a lot of the time I'm not consciously aware of the body, it's just doing its thing without any narrative about it. There is still on some level an awareness of it, but no thoughts.
Does the sensation itself suggest in any way that it is a body?
or only thoughts suggests it is a body?

The Actual experience of body = thought. Thought points to sensation and suggests/infers it is a body. Can a body be found in/as the sensation itself? Can an actual body be found IN colour, thought, smell, taste, sensation or sound...or are there only thoughts ABOUT a body, just as there are only thoughts ABOUT a me?

Love Ve

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Ecalpemos
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Re: Clear space

Postby Ecalpemos » Wed May 22, 2019 3:03 pm

Hi Ve

Does the sensation itself suggest in any way that it is a body?
or only thoughts suggests it is a body?
A. Sensation is simply sensation arising, it has no 'identity' as such. Thoughts decide if it's good/ bad and connect it to 'the body'.

The Actual experience of body = thought. Thought points to sensation and suggests/infers it is a body. Can a body be found in/as the sensation itself?

A. Sensation is a physical experience. Without the body there would be no sensation. If there's a pain in my leg, the pain doesn't create the leg, but it arises from the nerve endings within the leg. If I'm paralysed or have a local anaesthetic, the sensation goes, but the leg remains. I could be unconscious and have no awareness of it at all, but nursing staff could see it.

Can an actual body be found IN colour, thought, smell, taste, sensation or sound...or are there only thoughts ABOUT a body, just as there are only thoughts ABOUT a me?

A. There is a physical object here that is commonly referred to as 'my body'. Sometimes there's an awareness of it and sometimes not. But evidence shows that even when I'm not aware of it (e.g in deep sleep) it's still present in the room. The different sensations are not in and of themselves 'a body', but are part of the human experiencing of a body. I don't experience sound as a 'thought about the body' - I just experience sound arising and then I might think about it. The same with smell and taste - it's just experiencing arising, not always accompanied by thought.

There are only thoughts about ME, because 'me' is an idea, a shared concept. The body has objective reality - like a tree or a chair. Yes, it's constantly changing, but it's not just an idea within thought. If I was a dog or a fish I'd be experiencing the world differently, but the physical 'vehicle' affects the way life is experienced.


Love Ecalpemos

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Verananda
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Re: Clear space

Postby Verananda » Wed May 22, 2019 8:31 pm

Hi Ecalpemos
Sensation is simply sensation arising, it has no 'identity' as such. Thoughts decide if it's good/ bad and connect it to 'the body'.
So the experience is sensation and there is no first hand actual experience of "the body".
Wouldn't that mean that "connect to" and "the body" ist thought content?
How can you know about "the body" if its not in actual experience other than a "thought-based-knowing" (=content of thought) ?

And that is exactly what you did: Your answeres to the other questions are logical mental conlusions (=content of thought).
Do you see this?
Have a look back to your last post: What is left when you just take actual experience for what is realy known?

.
.
.

I also like to invite you to investigate a different set of questions concerning this "body"-stuff:
Do you realy want to find out truth about this "body-questions", no matter what it costs "you"?
If so ... go ahead:
when you read this and take it for a moment 100% that it is true (just as an experiment):
actual experience is colour, sound, smell, taste, sensation and thought (but not content of thought). everything else like "I/me/self" and all objects (including "the body", others, tree and chair, ...) is NOT actual experience. It is part of the illusion. It is thought content.
what comes up ? emotions? thought? please share!
Sometimes fear comes up in such an investiagtion. I remember you told me about your children and your love for them. Thats why I ask. If it is the case it would be good to adress this first.


you are realy persevering in this investigation, thats realy lovely!
Love Ve

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Ecalpemos
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Re: Clear space

Postby Ecalpemos » Thu May 23, 2019 7:43 am

Thanks for persevering with me!

I’ll work with this over the next few days and be back in touch soon.

Love Ecalpemos


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Ecalpemos
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Re: Clear space

Postby Ecalpemos » Mon May 27, 2019 12:09 am

Hi Ve

I've been exploring this...

So the experience is sensation and there is no first hand actual experience of "the body".

A. Sensation is first hand experience of the body. There's no inherent 'me / person' within that, but it's a body that is experienced and it is as 'real' as anything else in the world. My experience of the whole world is sensation, the body is part of that.

Do you realy want to find out truth about this "body-questions", no matter what it costs "you"?
A. yes - i really do!

what comes up ? emotions? thought? please share!

A. I feel confused and a bit frustrated, I just don't 'get it'. It doesn't make sense to me as there's so obviously a body here. I'm not afraid and I am not aware of any resistance to letting go of my body. It just seems to be obviously not true, so I hit a brick wall with it.

It feels like I'm supposed to 'get' the idea that nothing really exists, but when I look that is not what I experience.

You're right that my previous answers were logical mental conclusions. I'm not sure how else to 'look' at this, so I go to my mind.

Love Ecalpemos

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Verananda
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Re: Clear space

Postby Verananda » Mon May 27, 2019 11:51 am

Hi Ecalpemos,
Sensation is first hand experience of the body.
so here is the "magic point" where the illusion happens ....
A sensation is NOT the first hand / actual experience 'body', but the actual experience (AE) of SENSATION.

so lets go through a more detailed investigation:
A so called 'visual image' that is labelled by thought 'body' is NOT the AE of 'body', but the AE of COLOUR/IMAGE Is this clear?

A so called 'mental image' that is labelled by thought 'body' is NOT the AE of 'body', but the AE of THOUGHT Is this clear?

A sound that is labelled by thought as 'body' is NOT the AE of 'body', but the AE of SOUND. Is this clear?

A smell that is labelled by thought as 'body' is NOT the AE of 'body', but the AE of SMELL. Is this clear?

The thought/label 'body' is NOT the AE of 'body', but the AE of THOUGHT. Is this clear?

The thoughts about a body ie the story about a body and what it is, what it does etc are NOT the AE of ‘body’, but the AE of THOUGHT Is this clear?

A sensation is NOT the first hand / actual experience 'body', but the actual experience (AE) of SENSATION. Is this clear? (if not - what would be differnt here than with the questions/looking above)?

So what is actually known because they are AE is sensation + colour/image + sound + smell + label/thoughts. Is a body actually known? In other words, is the AE and if not, does it exist?


So tell me what you find!

I feel confused and a bit frustrated, I just don't 'get it'.
It is realy good that you are very honest and don't pretend what you can't see!
Time is not important ....
You're right that my previous answers were logical mental conclusions. I'm not sure how else to 'look' at this, so I go to my mind.
Thats the important point: when you look and you find nothing or just pure raw experience eg of sensation .... stay with that .... and be open for emotions coming up. Thats the point where often fear arises. It don't has to but it can be. So be open. Going to mind and looking for explanation is the "old path" of deepening old beliefs again. You will not find new stuff there ;-)

Love Ve

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Ecalpemos
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Re: Clear space

Postby Ecalpemos » Mon May 27, 2019 7:19 pm

Hi Ve

A so called 'visual image' that is labelled by thought 'body' is NOT the AE of 'body', but the AE of COLOUR/IMAGE Is this clear?
A so called 'mental image' that is labelled by thought 'body' is NOT the AE of 'body', but the AE of THOUGHT Is this clear?
A sound that is labelled by thought as 'body' is NOT the AE of 'body', but the AE of SOUND. Is this clear?
A smell that is labelled by thought as 'body' is NOT the AE of 'body', but the AE of SMELL. Is this clear?
The thought/label 'body' is NOT the AE of 'body', but the AE of THOUGHT. Is this clear?
The thoughts about a body ie the story about a body and what it is, what it does etc are NOT the AE of ‘body’, but the AE of THOUGHT Is this clear?

A. Yes, all these statements are clear to me.
A sensation is NOT the first hand / actual experience 'body', but the actual experience (AE) of SENSATION. Is this clear? (if not - what would be differnt here than with the questions/looking above)?

A. Yes, this is clear.

So what is actually known because they are AE is sensation + colour/image + sound + smell + label/thoughts. Is a body actually known? In other words, is the AE and if not, does it exist?

A. I'm baffled by this! I can answer 'yes' to all the questions above, but it feels like a clever intellectual game that ignores the undeniable fact that there's an object that I call 'body' here, which is a collection of shapes, colours, sensations, smells and sounds. I see that the body can't be 'removed' from the sensations as a stand alone thing.

So what IS 'body'? Is it just a mental label for a series of visual and sensory experiences?

I just did this experiment eating some spicy nuts. I went through all your questions in relation to the nuts, and they made complete sense. 'Nut' is a mental label for a number of visual and sensory experiences - taste, shape, colour, texture, crunch, sensations. The big difference is that I don't have a lifetime of beliefs that I am a nut! well... maybe a little bit :-)

But if it is true for one, it has to be true for the other.

To be clear - are you suggesting that there's no physical object here at all? Or that the idea of 'body' is simply an idea, and in AE there is not a 'body' per se, but a series of sensations and thoughts arising within awareness?



Love Ecalpemos

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Verananda
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Re: Clear space

Postby Verananda » Mon May 27, 2019 9:23 pm

Hi Ecalpemos

:-)))
I just did this experiment eating some spicy nuts.....
...
But if it is true for one, it has to be true for the other.
:-)
wunderful!!!

To be clear - are you suggesting that there's no physical object here at all?
"there's no physical object here at all" is also a thought. Maybe a new one - but not better than the old one. ;-)
There is experience her and now (sensation + colour/image + sound + smell + label/thoughts).
I do not know anything beyond that.
Sometimes its about enduring the not-knowing.
Or that the idea of 'body' is simply an idea, and in AE there is not a 'body' per se, but a series of sensations and thoughts arising within awareness?
Yes body is an idea = thought.

In direct experience can it be said "this is inside me/my body" or "it is outside"?
Does inside and outside exist?
Or would this be a thought?

In direct experience does past and future / time exist?
Or would this be a thought?

Love Ve

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Ecalpemos
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Re: Clear space

Postby Ecalpemos » Mon May 27, 2019 10:01 pm

Hi Ve...

Sometimes its about enduring the not-knowing.

Things fall into place in their own time ... I'm happy with accepting not knowing and prefer that to trying to struggle over it.


In direct experience can it be said "this is inside me/my body" or "it is outside"?
Does inside and outside exist?
Or would this be a thought?

A. There's a clear knowing that there is no inside / outside. These are relative terms with a practical use (e.g. the tea is in the cup), but nothing can ever be 'outside' - things are simply where they are and they are always here. Those kinds of comparisons and spacial judgments are just thoughts.


In direct experience does past and future / time exist?
Or would this be a thought?

A. In direct experience there is only ever now. Past and future are ideas / thoughts. Memories are thoughts and can only exist in the now, the same with thoughts about an imaginary future. Any thought about time, including thoughts about 'now' are by their nature not actual experiencing, but thoughts about it. It is impossible to think about 'now', it can only be experienced directly.
When the focus on thoughts falls away, life is timeless, spacious, present and peaceful.


Love Ecalpemos

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Verananda
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Re: Clear space

Postby Verananda » Mon May 27, 2019 10:43 pm

A. There's a clear knowing that there is no inside / outside.
Is it known by thinking or by looking in direct experience?
things are simply where they are and they are always here.
are you talking about "things" like spicy nuts, bodies and other "objects"?
;-)
how is your answer from direct experience?

Love Ve

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Ecalpemos
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Re: Clear space

Postby Ecalpemos » Tue May 28, 2019 9:38 am

Hi Ve...

A. There's a clear knowing that there is no inside / outside.
Is it known by thinking or by looking in direct experience?
A. It's known by direct experience. If I look out of my window at the tree I can say 'the tree is outside', but that is just a thought/concept, in DE the tree is simply being experienced here and now.

things are simply where they are and they are always here.
are you talking about "things" like spicy nuts, bodies and other "objects"?
;-)
how is your answer from direct experience?

A. I've eaten all the spicy nuts, so I could say that they are 'inside' me! :-) But in direct experience they are no longer here except as a thought. When I say 'things' I mean objects arising in awareness.


Love Ecalpemos

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Verananda
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Re: Clear space

Postby Verananda » Tue May 28, 2019 11:39 am

Hi Ecalpemos
A. I've eaten all the spicy nuts, so I could say that they are 'inside' me! :-) But in direct experience they are no longer here except as a thought. When I say 'things' I mean objects arising in awareness.
this is, where we look at as we did with "the body"
are there objects (body, nut, tree, .....) arising in awareness?
or is it just experience of sensation + colour/image + sound + smell + label/thoughts?
so "body", "nut", "tree", "object" is a label/thought?

is there "something" that arises in awareness?
what is the difference between awareness and experience?

Love Ve

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Ecalpemos
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Re: Clear space

Postby Ecalpemos » Tue May 28, 2019 6:30 pm

Hi Ve
are there objects (body, nut, tree, .....) arising in awareness?
or is it just experience of sensation + colour/image + sound + smell + label/thoughts?
so "body", "nut", "tree", "object" is a label/thought?
is there "something" that arises in awareness?

A. yes, I see that I am categorising and dividing the world up into 'objects'... I need some time to work through this.

what is the difference between awareness and experience?

A. Experience is awareness 'being' life. It is the verbing of awareness, but they are aspects of the same thing.


I will ponder the first point for a few days and get back to you.

Thanks!

Love, Ecalpemos

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Ecalpemos
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Re: Clear space

Postby Ecalpemos » Fri May 31, 2019 10:22 am

Hi Ve

are there objects (body, nut, tree, .....) arising in awareness?
or is it just experience of sensation + colour/image + sound + smell + label/thoughts?
so "body", "nut", "tree", "object" is a label/thought?


A. Suddenly it seems obvious that 'body', 'nut', tree etc are just labels. There's no 'thing' that is inherently 'nut'. Nut is just the label we give it. but what is 'it'? Is it a separate object? Separate from what? You can't have the idea of separate without another 'thing' for it to be separate from... There's nothing for it to be separate from, so in AE it makes no sense at all. The mind labels and categorises constantly. For practical reasons we give things names. But that implies that there are things to name. I look and in AE there is colour, texture, movement, sound, shape, smell - the mind labels it all. Without the mind it is just those elements being experienced directly. We all experience things differently too, so there can be no absolute 'true' experiencing of anything. It's all just ideas and judgments (i.e. thoughts.) And even the labels - smell, taste, shape etc, are just labels, which are not the same as the actual experiencing of them; in the same way that the map is not the terrain.

Also, in AE things aren't 'arising in awareness' - that makes it sound like they suddenly pop up from somewhere else. In AE there is an immediacy and an intimacy to the world, thought separates 'me' from 'it' and makes things 'other'. In AE nothing is 'other' things simply are, here and now.

what is the difference between awareness and experience?

A. You've asked me this before, and previously it's felt clear, but now I'm not so sure. They are connected, but I wonder if experience is the arising of sensations, feelings, thoughts within the field of awareness...


I shall continue to contemplate.... :-)


Love Ecalpemos


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