Clear space

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Ecalpemos
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Clear space

Postby Ecalpemos » Fri Feb 01, 2019 1:57 pm

LU is focused guiding for seeing there is no real, inherent 'self' - what do you understand by this?
In early 2018 'I' had a clear experiencing that the persona I believed myself to be does not exist. It is a knitting together of thoughts, experiences and beliefs which has a belief in itself and is constantly working to build, endorse, defend and support itself. What lies beyond this small busy thing is a vast spacious experiencing.

What are you looking for at LU?
Guidance towards a full, abiding experiencing of the truth. Since having a series of 'experiences' of clear seeing, the mind has rushed back in and it seems as though things have clouded over, though much in my life has simply fallen away and everything has changed. 'I' want to live clearly in the here and now, not getting sucked back into the traps and delusions of repetitive thoughts and the imaginary 'self'.

What do you expect from a guided conversation?
Pointers, clarity, showing me where my thoughts and beliefs are clouding my experiencing of the truth. A spacious teaching, not too intellectual. Suggestions and ideas of how I can deepen my practice. I am very clear that the answers cannot be found 'out there' with teachers / events / ashrams etc. It is only when I turn within that clarity can be experienced. I would like guided conversations to reflect this.

What is your experience in terms of spiritual practices, seeking and inquiry?
I had a series of clear 'seeing' experiences quickly (about 8 months), after discovering Eckhart Tolle, Rupert Spira, Adyshanti and others. Over the last year my whole life has changed. My 'practice' as such is every day awareness in everything I do. Am I present? What's my relationship to the present moment? Observing the jabbering of the mind and its patterns. I practice self-enquiry every day - who is upset? Who feels cold? What is cold? Who matters? Where is the upset? Who needs to be right? etc. I've joined a small local group run by a teacher who is quiet, humble and feels very naturally awake. We talk and meditate and meet a couple of times a month. I like reading stuff on the topic and watching occasional youtube videos.

On a scale from 1 to 10, how willing are you to question any currently held beliefs about 'self?
11

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Verananda
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Re: Clear space

Postby Verananda » Sat Feb 09, 2019 9:01 am

Hi Ecalpemos ,

welcome to Liberation Unleashed. Glad you made it here.
I'm Verananda and I can be your guide if that's okay with you.
Should I call you Ecalpemos or is there another name you would prefer?


Here are some arrangements we make to work together:
First I want to ask you to check out the Quote-Function. This will assist us in having a clear dialogue around the questions and answers. You can see here how it works: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-fAToDNh9hQ

During our conversation I will ask you a series of questions. For each, you will look at your own direct experience (DE) and answer with 100% honesty. I point. You look. You tell me what you see right there.

It is vital that you really do each “experiment” I provide, answer each question and look at your direct experience — in the present moment — instead of relying on analytical thought or memory.

During this guiding, please avoid any other teachings, spiritual books, writings, YouTube videos or talks. If you have a meditation practice, feel free to continue with it as usual. It is best to avoid analyzing, speculation and debate. The mind will try to create distraction.

Please make an effort to write here every day or at least every second. This works best if we keep a constant focus on looking. If you are unable to do this on occasion, or you need more time for looking just let me know. I'll do the same for you.

Do you agree with this?

Looking forward to our talk,
Verananda

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Ecalpemos
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Re: Clear space

Postby Ecalpemos » Sat Feb 09, 2019 10:25 am

Hi Verananda

Thanks for getting in touch. I’m happy for you to use the name Ecalpemos as it takes me out of my usual persona. I’ve watched the quote function video and am happy to forego other teachings during our process. I am fully committed to the process and am ready to start!

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Verananda
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Re: Clear space

Postby Verananda » Sat Feb 09, 2019 10:43 am

fine!

We are looking for what is true in direct experience.

When looking at the entire spectrum of present experience it can be described with the terms
the seen
the heard
the (bodily) sensed
the smelled
the tasted
and (observed) thought
Can you find something else, more or beyond those terms?
Wouldn't anything "else" be just a thought about such a thing?
If there is anything more, please describe what it is and how it is experienced!


Direct Pointing as used by LU is different from "Who I am" inquiery.
If you like you find more information in this LU article:
https://www.liberationunleashed.com/res ... implified/

Love Ve

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Ecalpemos
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Re: Clear space

Postby Ecalpemos » Sat Feb 09, 2019 5:33 pm

Hi Ve

My responses...
Can you find something else, more or beyond those terms?
A. Yes, the emotionally 'felt', and intuitive experiences. A sense of spaciousness, which is beyond the body and mind.
Wouldn't anything "else" be just a thought about such a thing?
A. Not initially, though thinking comes in almost immediately and makes it into a thought.
If there is anything more, please describe what it is and how it is experienced!
A. (Allowing for the duality of language). A clear awareness of the 'little me' as a hand-knitted, self-sustaining concept with no absolute reality to it. A totally different 'perspective'. A dropping of 'me'. A sense of limitless space. Stillness. These experiences are occasional, and not my permanent state.

Love Ecalpemos

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Verananda
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Re: Clear space

Postby Verananda » Sat Feb 09, 2019 6:14 pm

Hi Ecalpemos
emotionally 'felt',
is this more than sensation and thought?
and intuitive experiences
what is this?
A sense of spaciousness
the space in which everything appears?
so this is not "something" right?
Not initially, though thinking comes in almost immediately and makes it into a thought.
So we will look if before thought come in we find anything else than the seen, heard, smelled, tasted als bodily sensed.
... if we find anything other than the perception with the senses
A clear awareness of the 'little me' as a hand-knitted, self-sustaining concept with no absolute reality to it. A totally different 'perspective'. A dropping of 'me'. A sense of limitless space. Stillness. These experiences are occasional, and not my permanent state.
is it 100% sure that this 'little me' , this "I", is nothing else than a concept?
can "story of me" be beliefed again?
does it need a permantent state to know this?

love ve

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Ecalpemos
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Re: Clear space

Postby Ecalpemos » Sat Feb 09, 2019 6:44 pm

Thanks Ve!

My responses...
is this more than sensation and thought?

A. It's more than thought. It doesn't feel like it's included in the list of 6 bodily senses. More of an emotional sensing - perhaps that would be included in bodily sensations? I'm not sure.
what is this
A. by intuitive experiences, I mean a sense of something that feels more animal than human. e.g. walking home and crossing the street to avoid something, without knowing what. A sense of attraction / repulsion to certain people and places, again, without any obvious reason. It doesn't feel to me like these things happen in the mind or in my body per se. But as a sensing around me. I don't really believe in auras, but it's that kind of thing. Animals have a 6th sense, and they say we did 1000s of years ago (don't know if that's true or not). maybe it's that.
the space in which everything appears?
so this is not "something" right?
A. No, this isn't a thing / something.
So we will look if before thought come in we find anything else than the seen, heard, smelled, tasted als bodily sensed.
... if we find anything other than the perception with the senses
A. Before thought comes in it's not about the senses or perception with the senses. It's about space and stillness and 'seeing'. It's almost impossible to put into words!
is it 100% sure that this 'little me' , this "I", is nothing else than a concept?
can "story of me" be beliefed again?
does it need a permantent state to know this?
A. There is 100% certainty that the the little me is only a concept. There has been a clear experiencing of this. It doesn't need a permanent state to know this. It's simply what is. it's as though i've been playing the 'role' for so many years I'm hard-wired into it. On a fundamental level there's no longer a belief in it, but I keep going through the motions because the person doesn't know what else to do. I spend a lot of time on my own now, as I like the peace and freedom of being no one. In social situations I can find myself going back into the persona and 'performing' for people in a way that feels weird and exhausting afterwards.

I greatly appreciate the opportunity to work through these things with you : )

Love Ecalpemos

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Verananda
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Re: Clear space

Postby Verananda » Sat Feb 09, 2019 7:31 pm

A. It's more than thought. It doesn't feel like it's included in the list of 6 bodily senses. More of an emotional sensing - perhaps that would be included in bodily sensations? I'm not sure.
ok, so next time there is an emotion look in direct experience what you can find. bodily sensation? thougt? both? anything else?
by intuitive experiences, I mean a sense of something that feels more animal than human. e.g. walking home and crossing the street to avoid something, without knowing what.
thats interesting. :-) -
we will look at that.
first we do an experiment:
1. Hold a hand in front of you; palm turned down.
2. Now turn the palm up. And down...and up and so on.
Watch like a hawk.
Don't go to thoughts – examine your direct experience. Do this as many times as you like,
and each time inquire:-
How is the movement controlled?
Does a thought control it?
Can a ‘controller’ of any description be located?
How is the decision made to turn the hand over? Track any decision point when a thought
MADE THE DECISION to turn the hand over and the hand turns over immediately.
Who or what chose which hand - the left or right hand for the exercise?
Can you find a separate individual or anything that is choosing when to turn the palm up or
down?
I greatly appreciate the opportunity to work through these things with you : )
its a pleasure for me too!
... but I'm not quite sure what has to be worked through?
you sound very clear: "There is 100% certainty that the the little me is only a concept and It doesn't need a permanent state to know this." There is time alone and time with others. There are happy times and others are weird and exhausting and I guess some more variations and tastes of life. Thats life.
What has to be different?
Who is that who wants to change something?

Love Ve

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Ecalpemos
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Re: Clear space

Postby Ecalpemos » Sun Feb 10, 2019 1:15 am

Hi Ve
What has to be different?
A. I know I'm not what I thought I was, but that's not been 'replaced' by anything clear. I feel like I'm in a weird kind of limbo most of the time. I'm not particularly happy, I have few interests or friendships now. I feel tired and flat most of the time with little motivation to do anything. So much has fallen away - I rarely worry, or think of the past or the future, but it's left me in a dull no man's land. I haven't entered any kind of clear peaceful state, but I'm not agitated either. I still have a strong sense of my human existence, just not with the person I always believed myself to be. I'd like some guidance in how to move through this state. Or perhaps I'm supposed to simply accept it.
Who is that who wants to change something?
A. I don't know. Not the person I thought i was, but there's still something here that would like to move through this twilight state and start to feel alive again.

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Ecalpemos
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Re: Clear space

Postby Ecalpemos » Sun Feb 10, 2019 1:31 am

Hi Ve

Sorry! I missed out half of my answer to you!

The hand experiment...
I moved my right hand, probably because I'm right handed and it's my default setting.
I read your instructions and before I knew it my hand was up and moving! I guess I could have thought 'this is pointless' and not done it, but I didn't. I wanted to do it. Who wanted to do it? I have no idea. I know that my 'person' wants to do it as I'm interested in it and want to move through my current malaise.
But watching the hand almost didn't feel like it was 'my hand' anymore. Just observing a hand moving in space. The hand seemed like a hand, not really anything to do with 'me', if that makes sense.
I cannot find a separate controller. I don't really know how it's happening now!

love Ecalpemos.

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Verananda
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Re: Clear space

Postby Verananda » Sun Feb 10, 2019 10:30 am

The hand experiment...
very good! :-)
Just observing a hand moving in space.
I cannot find a separate controller.
It seems like this: It just happens ..... and after that thoughts just babble about what has already happened and try to explain why it is as it is ("probably because I'm right handed and it's my default setting.", .....)
is it like this?
observe this a bit more in daily life.
going to fridge getting milk, "deciding" to drink tee or coffee, ......
what is "just happening"?, who decides? and what is added by thought?
please reposrt about!
I still have a strong sense of my human existence, just not with the person I always believed myself to be.
thats normal. like a fata mogana. the illusion is still there but it is known as illusion. that makes the difference!
I'd like some guidance in how to move through this state.
ok, we will do!
I know that my 'person' wants to do it as I'm interested in it and want to move through my current malaise.
it sounds a bit like a hidden "someone" and the observed "person"?
can this someone, this "owner" or "user" of the person be found?
would like to move through this twilight state and start to feel alive again.
How would you know that you feel alive again?
what is "feeling alive"?

love ve

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Ecalpemos
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Re: Clear space

Postby Ecalpemos » Mon Feb 11, 2019 12:02 am

Hi Ve

thanks so much for your thoughts. I'm going to contemplate them over the next day and will respond tomorrow evening.

Love Ecalpemos

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Ecalpemos
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Re: Clear space

Postby Ecalpemos » Tue Feb 12, 2019 12:09 am

Hi Ve
observe this a bit more in daily life.
going to fridge getting milk, "deciding" to drink tee or coffee, ......
what is "just happening"?, who decides? and what is added by thought?
please report about!
A. I have been observing this for a while, and with greater focus since you set the task. Much seems so random and unplanned. Occasionally I find myself getting sucked in to social media (which I don't even particularly like) for hours on end. Suddenly I'm simply doing that. It's not anything that I gain anything of value from, but I seem to just 'do it' sometimes. I don't think 'I'd like to do this now', I find myself doing it, and then get sucked into a vortex of opinion and judgement (which are simply negative thoughts); emerging later feeling groggy and like I've 'wasted time'. It feels like my mind is trying to escape from itself, or maybe feed itself. All the thinking around this is unhelpful and negative.

Then there are things that are 'planned' - e.g. going to work, doctor's appointment - these have a time and a place assigned to them and I decide ahead of time to do them. Thought feels like an important element to these things as other things may be taken into account, planning etc. I don't tend to have judgmental or negative thoughts around these things, I just get on with them.

Then there's the stuff in between, like walking the dog, making tea, cleaning my teeth. I don't really 'think' about these things, but I do them regularly, like a habit. It doesn't feel like much thought goes into any of these things.
it sounds a bit like a hidden "someone" and the observed "person"?
can this someone, this "owner" or "user" of the person be found?
A. I will try to explain this as best I can! I get a sense of moving downwards and forwards 'into' thinking and 'the person'. If attention is brought upwards and 'back' from this there is a sense of spacious awareness and quiet. I cannot find a user or person as such, but there's a sense of slipping in and out of being that.
How would you know that you feel alive again?
what is "feeling alive"?
A. There would be energy, enthusiasm for life, wonder, interest in everything around me. A deeper sense of connection to the world and others.

Thanks! Love, Ecalpemos.

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Verananda
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Re: Clear space

Postby Verananda » Tue Feb 12, 2019 2:55 pm

great!
Then there are things that are 'planned' - e.g. going to work, doctor's appointment - these have a time and a place assigned to them and I decide ahead of time to do them. Thought feels like an important element to these things as other things may be taken into account, planning etc. I don't tend to have judgmental or negative thoughts around these things, I just get on with them.
there are thought about plans, about things to do.
are you doing everything as you planned it?
Can you find a connection in direct experience between thought "I will do that" and action happening?
Or is it just "thought" and "action" and "I did it becaause I planned it" is just another thought?
I get a sense of moving downwards and forwards 'into' thinking and 'the person'. If attention is brought upwards and 'back' from this there is a sense of spacious awareness and quiet. I cannot find a user or person as such, but there's a sense of slipping in and out of being that.
When "slipping in" it seems there are a lot of thougths. Can you find this person beyond thought? Or does thought build the illusion of person? What exactly is this "sense of beeing that"? What can be found in direct experience?
How would you know that you feel alive again?
what is "feeling alive"?
A. There would be energy, enthusiasm for life, wonder, interest in everything around me.
:-)
we all love this good feelings!
:-)
but also anger and fear are pure life energies!?
anger is full of energy and fear makes you running faster than you ever thought you could
its all part of life ..... freedom comes when we agree to all this happening instead of willing things to be different .....
A deeper sense of connection to the world and others.
... we will see if these borders are an illusion made out of thought ....
if there is a world and others "outside" .....

love ve

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Ecalpemos
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Re: Clear space

Postby Ecalpemos » Wed Feb 13, 2019 12:15 am

Hi Ve
are you doing everything as you planned it?
Can you find a connection in direct experience between thought "I will do that" and action happening?
Or is it just "thought" and "action" and "I did it becaause I planned it" is just another thought?
A. I'm not always doing everything as I planned it, as often other circumstances arise which I couldn't have planned for. Ultimately, what happens, happens - irrelevant of what I've planned or thought would happen.
There seems to be a connection between 'I will do that' and action happening. e.g. I will make a cup of tea, then I get up and do it. I'm not sure I'd make a cup of tea without the idea of it arising in my mind first. I think about making a cup of tea, then I go and do it, then I may have thoughts about what a nice cup of tea I've made. It's all thoughts interwoven with actions. However, sometimes I do or say stuff and am not sure where it came from! for example, I often find myself singing a random song, and not sure how or why. Sometimes I say things out loud to myself :)
When "slipping in" it seems there are a lot of thougths. Can you find this person beyond thought? Or does thought build the illusion of person? What exactly is this "sense of beeing that"? What can be found in direct experience?

A. When I'm 'slipping in' there are lots of thoughts and it's hard to untangle myself from it. This person doesn't exist beyond thought. Thought builds the illusion of the person, the person is a complex grouping of thoughts and beliefs. Since experiencing the inherent illusion of this, I find myself getting more and more frustrated with thought patterns, and sometimes really hooked into opinions of things. This happens much less than it did, but it seems to be harder to shake when it does. 'I' realise that this is simply the mind getting annoyed with the mind, and telling stories to the mind about how the mind shouldn't be doing it! The fact that I don't really believe in the thoughts any more doesn't make them any less annoying! My practice has been that as soon as I notice I'm in the swamp, to pull my attention to the present moment, perhaps with a focus on one particular thing e.g. a tree, passing clouds. I find this helps.
we all love this good feelings!
:-)
but also anger and fear are pure life energies!?
A. Yes! we love good feelings, as you say : ) I rarely get fearful or angry with things now. Since the shift in me, I tend to observe and accept things which would have previously made me angry. I do get frustrated with myself sometimes (as described above). Since the experiencing, all my feelings have become very numbed down, like the dial has been turned down to 2 on everything. None of my emotions are operating like they used to including - fear, embarrassment, love, jealousy, excitement, despair, joy. I'm just not that bothered about what happens, what people think, my opinion of myself anymore. I used to think of myself as bright and energetic and passionate about things; all that has gone. I don't particularly miss it. I don't miss anything that's gone. It's just gone and that's that. This sounds a bit nihilistic and depressed, but I don't believe I'm depressed. Something huge has fallen away (my fundamental sense of self) and I guess this is a process of readjustment.

Love, Ecalpemos


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