Wanting help in creating & sustaining momentum

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Seek3r
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Re: Wanting help in creating & sustaining momentum

Postby Seek3r » Sun Feb 24, 2019 11:05 pm

Hey Jon,

I'm still grappling with how to explain my experience and I'll try to be as precise as I can.
Is there now, was there ever, will there be a separate self entity?
Currently, there is no perception/feeling of a self-entity dwelling in me. Was there ever a self entity? Yes and no. Certainly there was something, it doesn't seem right to say illusion. It seems more of a limited understanding, like you're seeing 3/5 of what is the truth.

I'll use a metaphor to help explain. Let's say a car makes 100hp in its stock configuration. I have managed to tune the ECU of the car to make 130hp - I didn't add or remove anything physically, I just optimized what was already there. The opportunity to make more power was always there.

I don't think there ever will be a separate self entity. I certainly have doubts, and I would be lying if those doubts didn't have the faintest of momentum. They do - I still feel fear and worry. I feel it will greater clarity than ever before. But its intensity is at an all-time low. The negative feedback loop of thinking then feeling badly (over and over again) can't seem to get traction because the self to reinforce it all can't bind to it. It's like water and oil. It tries over and over, its probably just conditioning.
Do 'you' make anything happen?
I don't know what I am. Sometimes it feels like I just am awareness or stillness, the intensity of which fluctuates throughout the day. I'm having fun trying to work it all out.

The self would like to take ownership of what has happened - and certainly it was tried to do that since Thursday. There used to be an undercurrent of self in everything that happens, even things like realisations (like when I almost forgot to get my keys before leaving the house) used to have a self-referential thought and used to take ownership of it. But now I see them separately.

The questions from my older posts like, who laughs? who had willpower? It feels right to say no-one. No-one takes ownership for it, they happen the way they happen.

I'm hoping I will be able to refine my descriptions better, but this'll do for now.

Sooo... what happens now? What should I do?

Regards,

Peter

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JonathanR
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Re: Wanting help in creating & sustaining momentum

Postby JonathanR » Mon Feb 25, 2019 10:58 pm

Hi Peter,
. I'm hoping I will be able to refine my descriptions better, but this'll do for now.

Sooo... what happens now? What should I do?
For now just keep looking for or at any apparent manifestation of self. It may even be that its obvious that no separate entity 'exists', in which case its hardly even a case of 'looking' as much as seeing that.

It would be worth a trip out into nature. Somewbere with trees and grass or maybe by the sea. If not these then a park maybe. When you get there notice everything that is going on around. Sky, clouds, sun, wind, grass, trees, animals, insects, birds, people, Sounds, smells. And even your own sensations and thoughts. Everything that is alive and happening immediately.

Now, look for a line or edge in the total experience behind which is 'you' and beyond which is 'everything else'. Is it possible to find such an edge?

Jon 😊

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Seek3r
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Re: Wanting help in creating & sustaining momentum

Postby Seek3r » Mon Feb 25, 2019 11:38 pm

Hey Jon,
It would be worth a trip out into nature
I'll do that, I'll report back and make another reply with my findings, along with a proper response to your question. Might take a little longer than usual if you don't mind.

Regards,

Peter

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JonathanR
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Re: Wanting help in creating & sustaining momentum

Postby JonathanR » Tue Feb 26, 2019 8:24 am

Hi Peter,

That's a good idea. Take the time needed.

Jon

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Re: Wanting help in creating & sustaining momentum

Postby Seek3r » Wed Feb 27, 2019 11:54 am

Hey Jon,

It seems whatever peak experience I had has faded. I find that I am still quasi-trapped in 'self', especially when talking to people I don't know (bit of anxiety), not sure if it's habitual-conditioning or that I'm caught in limbo. That's not to say that I'm back to square one - everything I do has an ease and grace I've never had before, I'm much more grounded to the present moment as well.

I've noticed some tension on the top of my head. It's like I'm holding on to something because I'm afraid whatever experience I have will vanish for good. It could be entirely possible that my mind is doing what it has always done, which is consult with the 'self' for advice.

Gary Weber has spoken about eliminating all 'blah blah' thoughts, is this a goal I should have too?
Now, look for a line or edge in the total experience behind which is 'you' and beyond which is 'everything else'. Is it possible to find such an edge?
I can't find an edge. But I don't feel a 'oneness' with everything at every moment. Sometimes I do, and it feels like life is in high resolution and my field of vision expands. Whatever that I touch has a lifeness to it. It's uncommon to feel this unless I'm alone or with people I know well. I find walking around in the daytime very pleasurable all of a sudden as well, haha.

With appreciation,

Peter

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JonathanR
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Re: Wanting help in creating & sustaining momentum

Postby JonathanR » Wed Feb 27, 2019 4:11 pm

Hi Peter,

It's entirely possible to start seeing through 'self' and to experience doubts about that. Not least because there are often descriptions of 'what it's supposed to be like'
or 'what we should be aiming for'.

Were interested in that ever so subtle shift to realising that thoughts take us for a ride, including the idea of 'me'. 'Me' in a past, 'me' in a future.
. It could be entirely possible that my mind is doing what it has always done, which is consult with the 'self' for advice.
Hee hee. You nailed it in one. By the way, what mind?

Is there mind outside of words that speak of one?

Is there mind independent of thoughts that are imagined to come from 'a mind'?


You're doing great BTW.

:-)

Jon

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Seek3r
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Re: Wanting help in creating & sustaining momentum

Postby Seek3r » Wed Feb 27, 2019 11:27 pm

Hey Jon,
Is there mind outside of words that speak of one?

Is there mind independent of thoughts that are imagined to come from 'a mind'?
There's no perceivable mind, just the knowledge of mind. Therefore there is only thought of the mind.

I've found that I've fallen into some of my bad habits because the power of 'self' to do the right thing has waned significantly (I'm much lazier). There's also little difference between my day-to-day putting around and my meditation sessions lately. I don't know what to make of this, lol.

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JonathanR
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Re: Wanting help in creating & sustaining momentum

Postby JonathanR » Thu Feb 28, 2019 9:25 am

Hi Peter,
. I've found that I've fallen into some of my bad habits because the power of 'self' to do the right thing has waned significantly (I'm much lazier). There's also little difference between my day-to-day putting around and my meditation sessions lately. I don't know what to make of this, lol.
This is not at all uncommon. Don't worry.

Considering no self for a moment, is this some kind of experience that could come and go like drifting clouds appearing and disappearing?

Or is it rather different? Could there have been a time in which there was a separate self entity? Or is it seen that 'self' has always been the believed idea of one?

Lets come at the inquiry from another angle too.

Notice any sensations that are happening right now. You don't have to make a special effort to notice every last sensation, just what's being experienced right now.

For instance, coldness is noticed around hands, sensations in legs area, screen with writing, birds making a racket just outside. This is all going on right now here.

Notice whatever is happening right now. If thoughts are also appearing that's part of it.

Is there anything else than what's happening right now?

Is there ever anything else than what's going on right now?

:-)
Jon

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Seek3r
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Re: Wanting help in creating & sustaining momentum

Postby Seek3r » Thu Feb 28, 2019 10:17 am

Hey Jon,
Or is it rather different? Could there have been a time in which there was a separate self entity? Or is it seen that 'self' has always been the believed idea of one?
There never was a separate self entity, just the belief in it.
Considering no self for a moment, is this some kind of experience that could come and go like drifting clouds appearing and disappearing?
The experience of it? I think so yeah. But the understanding/realisation of that truth? No.

I say this because today I was romantically rejected and had a sour experience for about half an hour. All my old defense mechanisms kicked on and whisked 'me' away, that is to say the 'self' came on quite strongly. I was dissociating, ruminating on poor social choices etc. But I could watch every bit of it with clarity and by no effort on my part was I able to be present/grounded for it all. It felt like I was in limbo - like I was caught between two worlds. I'm not even sure if I had any real suffering or if I'm just pretending.
Is there ever anything else than what's going on right now?
No. I've been outdoors, sitting, dropping in stillness a lot lately - everything that happens, happens right now. When I'm still enough, life has shimmer or vibratory flow. It's 'The still point of the turning world'.

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JonathanR
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Re: Wanting help in creating & sustaining momentum

Postby JonathanR » Thu Feb 28, 2019 10:46 pm

Hi Peter
. There never was a separate self entity, just the belief in it.
Nice clear statement.
. The experience of it? I think so yeah. But the understanding/realisation of that truth? No.
Do you mean that the understanding / realisation is more like something unchanging?
. I say this because today I was romantically rejected and had a sour experience for about half an hour. All my old defense mechanisms kicked on and whisked 'me' away, that is to say the 'self' came on quite strongly. I was dissociating, ruminating on poor social choices etc. But I could watch every bit of it with clarity and by no effort on my part was I able to be present/grounded for it all. It felt like I was in limbo - like I was caught between two worlds. I'm not even sure if I had any real suffering or if I'm just pretending.
Wonderful. Very different from the more meditative experience of a few days ago but still, somehow the clarity is there without effort. You may find that 'unplesant' experiences are more like this now that it's seen what's going on and that 'self' is a narrative.

It can really seem that someone is swept away buy things that happen and old beliefs are temporarily believed again and seem like 'reality' but then, without any effort its seen through. Notice this kind of thing happening, if it does.
. I've been outdoors, sitting, dropping in stillness a lot lately - everything that happens, happens right now. When I'm still enough, life has shimmer or vibratory flow. It's 'The still point of the turning world'
That sounds beautiful.

Jon

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Seek3r
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Re: Wanting help in creating & sustaining momentum

Postby Seek3r » Thu Feb 28, 2019 11:58 pm

Hey Jon,
Do you mean that the understanding / realisation is more like something unchanging?
That's right. What is known cannot be unknown. Unless I get amnesia or something.

I'd also like to explore more about freewill if you don't mind, but I don't know where to start.

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JonathanR
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Re: Wanting help in creating & sustaining momentum

Postby JonathanR » Fri Mar 01, 2019 7:35 am

Hi Peter
. I'd also like to explore more about freewill if you don't mind, but I don't know where to start.
Sure. A very good idea.

Other ideas associated with the notion of free will are 'control.' 'choice' and 'decision'. There's an idea that there's a decider and chooser,

Looking at 'choice", place both hands palm down on a table in front of you. In a few moments one hand will be raised into the air whilst the other one will stay on the table.

During this exercise, if there's free will, there ought to come a moment of' choosing' between alternatives. The thing to notice is the choice being made. The choice-point. Can an exact moment of choosing be found?

Another great exercise investigates 'decisions'. But let me know how it goes with 'choice' first?

🙂
Jon

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Seek3r
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Re: Wanting help in creating & sustaining momentum

Postby Seek3r » Fri Mar 01, 2019 11:49 am

Hey Jon,
Can an exact moment of choosing be found?
I can feel the moment of movement, to the point where it feels like I'm shutting whatever nerve signal priming my muscle to move, right before the movement of my hand. I cannot detect what initiates or precedes this. I cannot feel a moment of choosing. There is thought about 'self' choosing, but its 'influence' is a non-issue.

It's very hard to wrap my head around this, it feels very confronting. I would be lying if I said I wasn't feeling suspenseful, even scared about this.

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Re: Wanting help in creating & sustaining momentum

Postby JonathanR » Sat Mar 02, 2019 9:36 am

Hi Peter
I can feel the moment of movement, to the point where it feels like I'm shutting whatever nerve signal priming my muscle to move, right before the movement of my hand. I cannot detect what initiates or precedes this. I cannot feel a moment of choosing. There is thought about 'self' choosing, but its 'influence' is a non-issue.

It's very hard to wrap my head around this, it feels very confronting. I would be lying if I said I wasn't feeling suspenseful, even scared about this.
I understand and some fear is very common as this is seen but it's worth noting that nothing has actually changed except for a way of seeing things. Everything works as it always has done. 'Choices' get made, somehow, just not by any sort of separated off 'me'.

Head may well try to wrap around this but somehow what's NOT going on ('me choosing') is seen to not be happening the way it was always assumed. It's a perspective shift.

Let me know how it's going and if the fear has reduced or not?

Jon

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Seek3r
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Re: Wanting help in creating & sustaining momentum

Postby Seek3r » Sat Mar 02, 2019 10:30 am

Hey Jon,

The fear/suspense will resume once I start work on this again I'm sure. Next time I'll observe it for what it is rather than trying to make sense of it through more thinking.

It's definitely become harder to watch every instance of 'self' arising. Sometimes throughout the day I'm simply caught in 'self' - stuck in my head. Feels like It'll take forever to undo this habit.


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