Long time seeker - No-one-wannabe

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Rayd8
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Long time seeker - No-one-wannabe

Postby Rayd8 » Tue Jan 08, 2019 10:06 am

LU is focused guiding for seeing there is no real, inherent 'self' - what do you understand by this?
I believe it was Osho that said that you don't really Live life, that life lives you.
I've had the temporary experience before of feeling like life just IS - that it doesn't matter at all what I (Ray) does, thinks or believes.

What are you looking for at LU?
I started reading the book "Gate less Gate crashers" and thought that I'd Really like to be guided through the realization that I am Not.
I also realized already how difficult it is for me to let go of all the "wisdom" and "knowledge" I've accumulated over my 52 year lifespan.
It's also difficult for me to accept that life is just happening without a "manager."
Although I don't believe in God as a Father or Sentient Being. I believe that there is an Underlying Universal Consciousness that is below it all. Like a dreamer that is dreaming all this... Once I had a really long and vivid Lucid Dream that I controlled easily, and what stuck with me is that my friends looked so real but it was I who made them all up in the dream even though they and I thought that each was a separate, unpredictable being.

What do you expect from a guided conversation?
I hope that someone can guide me through waking up from this dream so I can see the truth - which I'm led to belive that is the fact that I don't exist as a person, individual, or doer... I'm not really sure if it's possible though. But I really hope it can be.

What is your experience in terms of spiritual practices, seeking and inquiry?
I've been meditating for many years. I've been seeking the truth since I was 17 y/o, when I saw a friend die in front of me.
I've received and given past life regressions... I meditate regularly and am a Reiki "Master."
I've read everything I can on Zen, Taoism, read and listened to countless Osho books and lectures, and applied his technique of "Being the Witness" to everything I do in and out of sitting meditation.
I've also done Ayahuasca, San Pedro and other sacraments...
And many other things I can't remember at the time.
I really am willing to jump right in and lose it all.
I've tried it All! Hahaha - Yet Ray is Still here! WTF?

On a scale from 1 to 10, how willing are you to question any currently held beliefs about 'self?
11

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Rayd8
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Re: Long time seeker - No-one-wannabe

Postby Rayd8 » Wed Jan 09, 2019 12:14 am

Hello. I'm so glad to have been accepted to the forum!

I'd just like to add that aside from what I shared in my intro post, Alan Watts is another one of my favorite philosophers. He has an incredible way of explaining simply what is really beyond words.

Another all-time favorite of mine is Terence McKenna. He's incredible.

Peace to all.

Ray

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Anastacia42
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Re: Long time seeker - No-one-wannabe

Postby Anastacia42 » Wed Jan 09, 2019 5:30 pm

Hi Ray,

My name is Stacy and I can be your guide, if you would like. If so, please read the following and confirm you have read them, then please reply to the questions in blue, using the Quote Function.

What would you like for me to call you? What timezone and/or city/country are you in?

While I am very familiar with Alan Watts and Rajneesh/Osho, and have a passing knowledge of Terence McKenna, remember that you are to put aside others for the time of this inquiry. We have some recommended books listed, but even those can be distracting right now. Do keep reading Gateless Gatecrashers and/or Liberation Unleashed for examples of how this guiding works. All you have to do is LOOK.

If you haven't already read the disclaimer, please read it now and just confirm to me that you have read it. Here is the link.

http://liberationunleashed.com/disclaimer-2/

Also please read “Liberation Unleashed is not …” in the FAQ’s of LU. Here is the link.

http://liberationunleashed.com/about/faq/#faq-1041

Some housekeeping guidelines:

1. Post at least once a day, or every second day. If you need more time, or are unable to post for several days, just write a quick post on your thread to let me know please.

2. There is no one judging answers given, so please be 100% honest in your answers and inquiry.

3. This exploration is based on actual experience (AE) - smell, taste, sound, sensation, color and observed thoughts. Long-winded analytical and philosophical answers are best avoided and may even hinder progress. This is not a self-improvement process. There is no ‘self’ to improve.

4. Put aside all other teachings, philosophies, rituals, practices, books/reading and so on for the remainder of this investigation. Really put all your effort and attention in to seeing this reality, as it is. If you have a daily meditation practice, it is fine to continue that but is not necessary for this exploration.

IMPORTANT: Technology is not perfect and sometimes there is a glitch which can wipe out your responses. It is advisable that you copy and paste questions asked into Word, answer them there and then copy and paste them to your thread. Always save a copy of what you have done, it will save time in the long run!

To begin with, so that we both become aware of what your expectations are about this exploration. In your own words (not from actual experience, but just honest answers), could you please answer the 4 following questions:

How will life change?
How will you change?
What will be different?
What is missing?


Throughout this exploration I would like you to answer all questions that I have written in blue text. Please answer questions individually, remembering to use the Quote Function to highlight the question being answered.

How to Use the Quote Function:

viewtopic.php?f=4&t=660

Let me know if you have any questions.

Warmly,
~ Stacy

"Not to know there is an alternative to being lost
in thought is to be a kind of prisoner."

~ Sam Harris

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Rayd8
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Re: Long time seeker - No-one-wannabe

Postby Rayd8 » Wed Jan 09, 2019 6:09 pm

Hi Stacey,

Thank you for valunteering to be my guide! I really appreciate you taking the time to guide me through this process. The fact that you are freely valunteering to help me makes me think that this process has merit. I don't think you would do this if if hadn't helped you considerably.
What would you like for me to call you? What timezone and/or city/country are you in?
Ray is fine. I'm in Florida USA.
If you haven't already read the disclaimer, please read it now and just confirm to me that you have read it. Here is the link.
Done.
Also please read “Liberation Unleashed is not …” in the FAQ’s of LU. Here is the link.
Done.
Post at least once a day, or every second day.
Will do.
Put aside all other teachings, philosophies, rituals, practices, books/reading and so on for the remainder of this investigation.
I will do the best I can to leave all my preconceptions aside.

I understand that all ideas are a veil in the mind and the mind is yet another veil/illusion - it is not direct looking. My meditation practice is Mindfulness Meditation with an emphasis on being the Witness, the Observer - I don't visualize things or repeat mantras, so it should not affect this process.

I will try my best to just Look and please feel free to guide me away from any preconceptions and back on track if I do slip.
How will life change? 
I am open to a completely new process so I leave all expectations out of this.
How will you change? 
I have no idea.
What will be different?
I have no idea.
What is missing?
I have no idea.

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Anastacia42
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Re: Long time seeker - No-one-wannabe

Postby Anastacia42 » Wed Jan 16, 2019 12:47 am

Hi Ray,

I apologize for the delay in replying! It is my fault. If I attempted to "subscribe" to your topic, it did not take and I was not notified of your reply. If you'll forgive me, we can get going now. Thank you.

Next question:

What comes up when is read that there is no self, never has been, never will be? That "self" or "me" or "I" is just a made up fiction?

I'll be watching for a reply this time, although I believe I am now subscribed and should get the notices.

Warmly!
~ Stacy

"Not to know there is an alternative to being lost
in thought is to be a kind of prisoner."

~ Sam Harris

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Rayd8
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Re: Long time seeker - No-one-wannabe

Postby Rayd8 » Thu Jan 17, 2019 5:25 pm

Hi Stacey,

I was wondering what happened. Here we go...
What comes up when is read that there is no self, never has been, never will be? That "self" or "me" or "I" is just a made up fiction?
Intelectually, I think: "Makes sense. There is a Universal Consciousness behind and within everything and it certainly works through "me."

But... I can't "wrap my mind around" the fact that there is no "me/self" experiencing things. I am seeing, hearing, feeling my environment.

No emotion attached to it. Just how do I dispute that "I" am experiencing my environment? If not me, then who and how is this happening?

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Rayd8
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Re: Long time seeker - No-one-wannabe

Postby Rayd8 » Thu Jan 17, 2019 5:27 pm

Unless I AM that universal consciousness experiencing everything...

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Anastacia42
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Re: Long time seeker - No-one-wannabe

Postby Anastacia42 » Thu Jan 17, 2019 5:51 pm

Good morning, Ray!

Thank you for your answer.

What if there is neither a "me" nor a "Universal Consciousness?" What if it is seamless - just life life-ing? Awareness happening? No need to answer that right now, just something to ponder as we begin to do exercises. The exercises will point you to SEEING.

So, next I want you to understand clearly what is meant when you are given an exercise and asked to LOOK (not think) to reply. It is more of a meditation of allowing a response to arise than a test in school.

Colored Socks

There is a big difference between knowing that there is nothing to give up and seeing that there is nothing to give up. Here is an example to illustrate the difference:

If I ask you what color socks you are wearing right now you have two ways to come up with an answer:

• You can have a think about it, you can think back to this morning and try to remember putting your socks on, and you can probably tell me what color you think they are.

• Alternatively, you can take a quick look at your socks and tell me what color they actually are! Hopefully you would agree that you can only be 100% certain by looking. For the purpose of our dialogue together, it is going to be very important that you are clear about this difference.

Knowing is about knowledge which is all in the mind and we are not interested in that. We are only interested in looking at and seeing what is actually going on in your present moment to moment experience. We are only interested in your direct experience in the moment.

Please let me know if you are clear about this or if you would like any further clarification.


Warmly,
~ Stacy

"Not to know there is an alternative to being lost
in thought is to be a kind of prisoner."

~ Sam Harris

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Anastacia42
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Re: Long time seeker - No-one-wannabe

Postby Anastacia42 » Sat Jan 19, 2019 5:38 am

Hi,

Just a quick note that the LU Web site has been experiencing high traffic due to bots or something. At times it may be down or slow while this is fixed.

Thanks,
~ Stacy

"Not to know there is an alternative to being lost
in thought is to be a kind of prisoner."

~ Sam Harris

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Anastacia42
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Re: Long time seeker - No-one-wannabe

Postby Anastacia42 » Sun Jan 20, 2019 5:19 pm

Hi Ray,

Sorry again for the slow start, but posting every day is needed.

Site still timing out, so maybe that is what is happening.

SAVE A COPY of your reply somewhere else before posting!

Warmly,
~ Stacy

"Not to know there is an alternative to being lost
in thought is to be a kind of prisoner."

~ Sam Harris

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Anastacia42
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Re: Long time seeker - No-one-wannabe

Postby Anastacia42 » Mon Jan 21, 2019 10:22 pm

Hi Ray,

You may have tried to get in when it was down. Are you still here? Still want to continue?

See previous post for your next question.

Much love,
~ Stacy

"Not to know there is an alternative to being lost
in thought is to be a kind of prisoner."

~ Sam Harris

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forgetmenot
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Re: Long time seeker - No-one-wannabe

Postby forgetmenot » Sat Apr 20, 2019 1:03 am

Hello Ray,

This is Kay and I am happy to continue to guide you. At LU we are described as guides - not teachers - as our role is to directly point to what IS, through the use of exercises and questions. Your role is to LOOK carefully to what is being pointed at. It is this simple LOOKING (not thinking) that brings the realisation that there is no separate self and never has been. This is an experiential based guiding and is not a discussion or a debate.

I see that Anastacia has already given you the links to read and confirm, with some housekeeping guidelines.

Anastacia also gave you the following 4 questions and you did not really answer them. Everyone has expectations, hopes and desires of what will change when they realise there is no separate self. So please be 100% honest here and write what it is you would like to see change. There is no one judging you here...there is only the desire to be of assistance and to do that I need your honesty and openness throughout this exploration.

The purpose of the questions are for you and I to become aware of any expectations you may have of what having the realisation may look like or feel like. Expectations have a habit of getting in the way of the exploration and even blind siding the fact that the realisation has happened. There is nothing to be done with expectations other than to be aware of them and any others that appear as we move through this exploration. Also be aware that when desired expectations are not met, fear, anger, resistance, resentment, frustration can arise. Let me know if and when this happens so we can look at them together.

How will life change?
How will you change?
What will be different?
What is missing?


Kay
Nothing real can be threatened. Nothing unreal exists.
https://freedomalreadyis.com/

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Rayd8
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Re: Long time seeker - No-one-wannabe

Postby Rayd8 » Sat Apr 20, 2019 1:41 am

Hi Kay!

Thank you for helping me!

OK, some time has passed since I was last on here. Much has changed, much has not!

I understand about Seeing vs Thinking completely clearly now - I think! haha

But you have my permission to clonk me over the head any time you feel you need to! No hard feelings at all. Keep me on my toes and on point!

I'll do my best to answer the questions I skirted last time...
How will life change?
If I understand the end result of being Guided through this process, Life will be much more peaceful because I (the individual) will no longer be trying to change things into what my very limited viewpoint and understanding. Life will live itself...

I can't really envision how this will be though. I bet that it'll be much different than I can imagine right now. If Iknew exactly, I'd already be there right?
How will you change?
- I will not worry about the future nor dwell on the past.
- I will not be trying to fix things to what I think they should be.
- I will live peacefully.
- I will be much better at helping others.
- If all goes well, I would Love to help Guide others to attain the same. Eventually, If I can handle that.
- And if all goes as planned, I will no longer exist!
What will be different?
From my experience, I think it will be different but the same... Now, during the day, sometimes everything seems different, but the same, but it's like I'm looking at things from another viewpoint. Like when you're fully immersed watching a movie, and someone calls you, and when you look back at the screen, you're no longer immersed. Same movie, but it looks different because you're looking at it differently...

So the same, but different...
What is missing?
Hmmmmm... This one is not easy...

I have this feeling that something is missing... Like I'm not looking at things in the right way. Like there's a Veil that needs to be lifted... Like I'm looking at life through dirty glasses and I don't know how to clean them, or more like, I don't even know that I'm wearing any glasses or that they're even dirty!
...

OK, let me have it. Lets get this over with. Hit me over the head! I can take it! hahaha

I hope my answers make sense Kay.

Thank you.

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Re: Long time seeker - No-one-wannabe

Postby forgetmenot » Sat Apr 20, 2019 2:32 am

Hello Ray,

Please be aware that I am guiding others on the forum as well, so I won’t be able to respond immediately to your posts. This exploration is not about how quickly you can respond to try and get to some sort of imagined goal post. It is about LOOKING diligently to what is being pointed at and doing every exercise very carefully and as many times as needed.
But you have my permission to clonk me over the head any time you feel you need to! No hard feelings at all. Keep me on my toes and on point!
I have been known to bring out the zen stick when looking isn't happening and intellectual answers are used! :)

Okay…as I said in my previous post, these questions were about becoming aware of expectations because they can hinder the exploration and blindside the fact when realisation of there being no separate self happens.

I want you to be aware of what arises for you when you read my responses. There may be fear, resistance, anger, relief, etc…just let me know.
How will life change?
If I understand the end result of being Guided through this process, Life will be much more peaceful because I (the individual) will no longer be trying to change things into what my very limited viewpoint and understanding. Life will live itself...
There is no “I” now that is trying to fix or change anything. There has NEVER been a separate self…EVER.

This exploration is only a beginning and not an ending. Please have this at the back of your mind as we move through this exploration. Realising 'no self' happens, but there will also be periods of checking, and doubting, and rechecking, and that is all normal. There will still be beliefs and patterns that are rooted in the idea of being a separate self, after the realisation, that will need clearing, as not everything gets rewritten in one big hit...so yo-yoing happens and suffering does not end in one fowl swoop. Seeking is what does fall away though.

The realisation is not about there being no such entity as ‘no self’ - there has never been one…so how can an absence of a ‘no self’ be experienced? It is simply the noting of an absence of a self. So it is not about "Oh look, there is the experience of no self"; it is realising that any sense of self is seen to be not real, that on scrutiny, there is no substance of self that underlies the object or thought.
I can't really envision how this will be though. I bet that it'll be much different than I can imagine right now. If Iknew exactly, I'd already be there right?
There is no ‘you’ to “already be there”. There already IS. It is only a thought system that tells the story of there being a separate self that is seeking enlightenment and what enlightenment gives. If there really is no inherent self, how would the experience be different from what already is?
How will you change?
- I will not worry about the future nor dwell on the past.
- I will not be trying to fix things to what I think they should be.
- I will live peacefully.
- I will be much better at helping others.
- If all goes well, I would Love to help Guide others to attain the same. Eventually, If I can handle that.
- And if all goes as planned, I will no longer exist!
These seem to be the byproduct of realising no self, however they are not guaranteed in any way. There is no one/no thing that is controlling anything, including life, or how the SEEMING character behaves. The idea of a separate self labelled as "I" has always appeared...why would that change?

Seeing through the illusion of “I” doesn’t mean you will lose the “I” and with it your whole identity. The “I” doesn’t exist, not even now as you are reading these lines.
What is missing?
Hmmmmm... This one is not easy...

I have this feeling that something is missing... Like I'm not looking at things in the right way. Like there's a Veil that needs to be lifted... Like I'm looking at life through dirty glasses and I don't know how to clean them, or more like, I don't even know that I'm wearing any glasses or that they're even dirty!
There can never be anything missing, no matter how many times thoughts appear saying there is something missing, or that idea of there being something missing appears.

Okay, now we become aware of actual experience (AE) and what LOOKING is.
‘Looking’ is just plain looking at actual/direct experience (AE), which is simply colour (image), sound, smell, sensation, taste and the simple knowing of thought at face value that is appearing right now in the moment. You are looking at the raw experience of AE and noticing the labels and thoughts ABOUT the raw experience. The key to this exploration is the careful LOOKING. Why? Because it’s the act of actually LOOKING and not finding an “I” that brings about the realisation of there being no separate self and that there has never been a separate self.

So first we become aware of what AE is and how it is used to ‘look’.

I would like you to sit quietly and close your eyes and just listen to the sounds for a few minutes that can be heard both inside and outside of the room. Really hear them.

Tell me ONE sound that you heard when doing this? (Make sure it is a sound that you will be able to hear again for part 2 of this exercise).


Kay
Nothing real can be threatened. Nothing unreal exists.
https://freedomalreadyis.com/

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Rayd8
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Re: Long time seeker - No-one-wannabe

Postby Rayd8 » Sat Apr 20, 2019 3:18 am

OK, I'm not trying to answer quick. I just wanted to get this one done before going to bed. That way, I can work on the next one tomorrow.
I want you to be aware of what arises for you when you read my responses. There may be fear, resistance, anger, relief, etc…just let me know.
No strong emotions other than a low but constant low level fear in the background...

Then I read this:
There is no “I” now that is trying to fix or change anything. There has NEVER been a separate self…EVER.
and I thought, "OK, here we go! There will be no way for me to bullshit my way around this...

Then I read this:
Seeing through the illusion of “I” doesn’t mean you will lose the “I” and with it your whole identity. The “I” doesn’t exist, not even now as you are reading these lines.
Then I really shit my pants!

I felt a real intense fear. Like this time it's for real. I'll have to jump, or they'll push me.

Seriously, deathly fear of dissolution - disappearing forever. Loosing my daughter forever? Shit.

And this one:
...it’s the act of actually LOOKING and not finding an “I” that brings about the realization of there being no separate self and that there has never been a separate self.

Another change of pants!

Honestly, my main emotional state right now is pure terror of losing my identity... of being wrong all these years of searching and meditation... Wow! I had never looked at the huge amount and intensity of fear this process would take! And I KNOW that you KNOW how stupid I'm going to look at the end for being so cared. But hey, there's no other way.

But this is it. No turning back.
Tell me ONE sound that you heard when doing this? (Make sure it is a sound that you will be able to hear again for part 2 of this exercise).
The clothes dryer in the laundry room in front of me. -- It's late, so it's very quite otherwise.

I have to go to sleep, but I'll check first thing in the morning and answer during the day.

I understand that I'm not your only "case." I really appreciate what you're doing. I know it must be a labor of love.

Thank you Kay!


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