Please, help me see this once for all

This is a read-only part of the forum. All threads where seeing happens are stored here and come from this forum, the Facebook guiding area and various LU blogs. The complete list, sorted by guide, contains all links. The archives include threads of those that came to LU already seeing as well.
User avatar
Verananda
Posts: 721
Joined: Tue Jun 12, 2018 3:14 am

Re: Please, help me see this once for all

Postby Verananda » Sat Jan 26, 2019 9:12 pm

Hi Nelson,

yes send answere when its possible for you ....
I still have some identification with the body, so everything that happens "inside of it", or "inside its awareness", is still "mine".
we can work with that. I wait for your open answeres .... we have already startet ..... :-)

love ve

User avatar
nothingness
Posts: 51
Joined: Thu Jan 03, 2019 2:00 pm

Re: Please, help me see this once for all

Postby nothingness » Mon Jan 28, 2019 1:54 pm

Hi Verananda,

Sorry for the delay. On weekends is more difficult for me to get alone and investigate this.
This sense of being the thinker and the experiencer, have a look at that. look at this sense. what can you find?
There is a constant stream of thoughts, picturing Nelson thinking, hearing, etc. There is also seeing, and, as crazy as it seems, there is a belief that that idea of Nelson reflects this one who is seeing. Sensations in the body reinforce this belief.
What is the fear about? Is there something to loose? any threat?
When looking at it, the heart starts beating fast. Then I look at this fear, and I just see sensations and thoughts, but that belief that I mentioned early gives an ideia that there is indeed something to lose.

I can see that beliefs pops-up as just thoughts-sensations, but until now I wasn't able to see through all this mess :)

Thank you for helping me, Verananda.

Best,
Nelson

User avatar
nothingness
Posts: 51
Joined: Thu Jan 03, 2019 2:00 pm

Re: Please, help me see this once for all

Postby nothingness » Mon Jan 28, 2019 2:04 pm

Just complementing this phrase "there is a belief that that idea of Nelson reflects this one who is seeing ". I can't, indeed, find no one seeing, but the mind seems to cling to this idea that the "eye" can not see itself.

Best,
Nelson

User avatar
Verananda
Posts: 721
Joined: Tue Jun 12, 2018 3:14 am

Re: Please, help me see this once for all

Postby Verananda » Tue Jan 29, 2019 2:30 pm

Hi Nelson

I can see that beliefs pops-up as just thoughts-sensations, but until now I wasn't able to see through all this mess :)

:-)
but now it seems to be clear ?

Just complementing this phrase "there is a belief that that idea of Nelson reflects this one who is seeing ". I can't, indeed, find no one seeing, but the mind seems to cling to this idea that the "eye" can not see itself.

is there a seer and the seen?
or just seeing?
is there a perciever and the percived?
a subject and an object?
or just perception?

dont think about. Look in direct experience! What can you realy find?
what is truth and what an old belief (tought)?

love ve

User avatar
nothingness
Posts: 51
Joined: Thu Jan 03, 2019 2:00 pm

Re: Please, help me see this once for all

Postby nothingness » Wed Jan 30, 2019 1:15 am

Hi Verananda,
but now it seems to be clear ?
Although I can see much of the illusion mechanics, I'm still lost in this maze of beliefs.
is there a seer and the seen?
or just seeing?
is there a perciever and the percived?
a subject and an object?
or just perception?
There is this strong impression of being the perceiver, but all I can find is perception.

There are thoughts saying that the perceiver simply wouldn't be found, in the same way that an "eye" can't see an "eye". Other thoughts saying that I'm the body and this experience is happening in "my" awareness.

The mind seems to be jumping from one foot to the other, trying to create theories for why experience doesn't match what we think.

I'm still investigating this, trying to ignore all these thoughts and just look.

Sds,
Nelson

User avatar
Verananda
Posts: 721
Joined: Tue Jun 12, 2018 3:14 am

Re: Please, help me see this once for all

Postby Verananda » Wed Jan 30, 2019 11:45 am

Hi Nelson
Although I can see much of the illusion mechanics,
fine :-)
... I'm still lost in this maze of beliefs.
There are a lot of old beliefes (=thoughts). But who is lost? What is this "beeing lost"?

When it has been realized that the "I" is just an illusion, and the illusion is back later, does the illusion suddenly become "real"?
Like a fatamorgana in the dessert. Before seeing it as an illusion there is this need to go there. After seeing it is an illusion, does the image disappear? Does the oasis become real through the appearance of this Fatamorgana image?
There is this strong impression of being the perceiver, but all I can find is perception.
yes. thats it.
I'm still investigating this, trying to ignore all these thoughts and just look.
wonderful. we dont have to fight against those thoughts. They come when they come. there is no one to change it.
just seeing truth. seeing the illusion as a illusion.

what is with decisions? who is making decisions?
Look in direct experience what realy happens when making a decision. Even if it is a small one like "go for a walk or not" ....

love ve

User avatar
nothingness
Posts: 51
Joined: Thu Jan 03, 2019 2:00 pm

Re: Please, help me see this once for all

Postby nothingness » Thu Jan 31, 2019 2:00 am

Hi Verananda,
There are a lot of old beliefes (=thoughts). But who is lost? What is this "beeing lost"?
Looking deeper, this "being lost", in experience, is in fact not knowing what I really am. It seems that, since the shift that happened during the Finders Course, I don't believe so much in this "I", neither in control, but, on the other hand, as I don't know what is here, I say that I am this body, who experiences life through its awareness.

In other words, what seems to really bother me is this doubt. I'm not 100% sure that I'm this body, but, at the same time, I'm not 100% sure that I'm not it. Since that shift, there are much fewer thoughts, this underlying okayness, this spaciousness, and this skepticism about this "I", but, for a lack of options, I say that I'm this body.

There is indeed a history about an "I lost in beliefs" but it seems that this is not exactly the problem. Or is it? :)
When it has been realized that the "I" is just an illusion, and the illusion is back later, does the illusion suddenly become "real"? Like a fatamorgana in the dessert. Before seeing it as an illusion there is this need to go there. After seeing it is an illusion, does the image disappear? Does the oasis become real through the appearance of this Fatamorgana image?
This Fatamorgana is seeing as just an illusion. Almost in the same way that I see this impression of being a separate "I". But as I said, for a lack of options, I say that I'm this body. But, in the end, I really don't know what I'm.

When I say that I don't know what I am, I'm not referring to this "I" thought who is clearly a word, a thought. I'm referring to what is here, this experience.
what is with decisions? who is making decisions?
Look in direct experience what realy happens when making a decision. Even if it is a small one like "go for a walk or not" ....
Although there is a history about an "I" making decisions, decisions just pop-up as thoughts from nowhere.

Best,
Nelson

User avatar
Verananda
Posts: 721
Joined: Tue Jun 12, 2018 3:14 am

Re: Please, help me see this once for all

Postby Verananda » Thu Jan 31, 2019 7:40 am

You are doing good and you see the truth very clear.... and then mind jumps in and says "...but ... I have to be something ... nothing can be found? Oh no ... ok, then I am the body!"

But that is nothing than thought right?

There is experience, perception.
Can you find an experiencer, observer, perceived?
Or is there just perception?

Maybe that's it?
Why adding something by thought that can't be found in reality?

Trust the experience, what can be found here and now, not the stories of thought.

Love ve

User avatar
nothingness
Posts: 51
Joined: Thu Jan 03, 2019 2:00 pm

Re: Please, help me see this once for all

Postby nothingness » Fri Feb 01, 2019 12:19 am

Hi Verananda,

Your last post was eye-opening for me. It was the first time that I really considered that there is just perception.

I'll explore this for some more time, and I will answer you tomorrow.

Thank you.

Best,
Nelson

User avatar
Verananda
Posts: 721
Joined: Tue Jun 12, 2018 3:14 am

Re: Please, help me see this once for all

Postby Verananda » Fri Feb 01, 2019 9:08 am

wonderful! Take time for it! :-)

User avatar
Verananda
Posts: 721
Joined: Tue Jun 12, 2018 3:14 am

Re: Please, help me see this once for all

Postby Verananda » Mon Feb 04, 2019 9:59 am

Hi Nelson,

we had system problems with LU Server. They should be solved now..... love Ve

User avatar
nothingness
Posts: 51
Joined: Thu Jan 03, 2019 2:00 pm

Re: Please, help me see this once for all

Postby nothingness » Tue Feb 05, 2019 12:31 am

Hi Vernanda,

Thank you for letting me know that the servers are back. Last days were interesting. First, there was some ego backlash, with frustration, anger, and a wanting to give up this seeking. But in the end I know that I won't give up this path. I've already tried many times and I always came back to it. This ego backlash then settled down, and some insights started popping-up.

It became clear why thinking will never do it. In a sense, we think from a third-person, rather than from a first-person perspective. That is because we've learned to describe things from the perspective of who taught us how to describe things. From their perspective, they believe that this body is in control of itself so, when we were a child, every time we moved our hands, they taught us to say/think that we have moved it. But if we stop now and see what is really happening, we see that hands just move. No "I" involved.

All thinking is rooted in this third-person perspective because all thinking was taught to us from "outside", by persons who themselves believe that they are in control. Our subject/object language reinforces it. So, investigating using thinking is like scanning to get rid of the "iVirus", as Ilona calls it, with an anti-virus that is itself infected.

After realizing it, there was a lot of skepticism about thoughts, and beliefs have started surfacing into awareness like bubbles, especially during meditation. It is an immense castle of beliefs.
Can you find an experiencer, observer, perceived?
Or is there just perception?
All I can find are thoughts about an experiencer, supported by a lot of beliefs about how reality works. These beliefs are strong, and protect itself appearing as necessary for survival.

It is clear how these almost non-stop thoughts sculpt this "I" in the experience, but, probably because of this pile of beliefs about how things works, I'm still believing that there is a hidden "I" in the middle of it. Especially, as a source of thoughts.

Thank you, Verananda.

Best,
Nelson

User avatar
Verananda
Posts: 721
Joined: Tue Jun 12, 2018 3:14 am

Re: Please, help me see this once for all

Postby Verananda » Tue Feb 05, 2019 6:07 pm

Hi Nelson,
First, there was some ego backlash, with frustration, anger, and a wanting to give up this seeking. But in the end I know that I won't give up this path.
frustration, anger -> emotion and thought, right?
"wanting to give up this seeking ..." -> thought, right?
ego backlash -> and what is this ????

Its fine that you saw a lot of "true nature about thought".
It is an immense castle of beliefs.
yes and when the true nature of the thought is realized, the entire house of cards collapses.
I'm still believing that there is a hidden "I" in the middle of it.
nothing wrong with this thought. just a thought. Can you find more?
Especially, as a source of thoughts.
If this is more than a thought we would find proves in direct experience. otherwise it would be like saying "The world is crowded by blue aliens - no one ever has seen one - but I know they are here!"

Do this exercise again and look for this " hidden "I" in the middle of it":

Take some time and sit quietly for about 30 minutes and notice the arising thoughts.
Just let them appear as they appear. Try your best to COMPLETELY ignore what they are
saying and just notice how they appear without you doing anything at all.
Where are they coming from and going to?
Did you do anything to make a particular thought or thoughts appear?
Could you have done anything to make a different thought appear at that exact moment
instead?
Can you predict your next thought?
Can you select from a range of thoughts to have only pleasant thoughts?
Can you choose not to have painful, negative or fearful thoughts?
Can you pick and choose any kind of thought?
Is it possible to prevent a thought from appearing?
Can you find any hidden "I" in the middle of it as a source of thought?

have fun, love ve

User avatar
nothingness
Posts: 51
Joined: Thu Jan 03, 2019 2:00 pm

Re: Please, help me see this once for all

Postby nothingness » Wed Feb 06, 2019 2:21 pm

Hi Verananda,
ego backlash -> and what is this ????
I don't remember who coined this term but it refers to this pattern of bad emotions during this type of investigation.
nothing wrong with this thought. just a thought. Can you find more?
Just thinking and thoughts picturing a me thinking. As the body seems to react to these thoughts, it seems that I'm this body thinking.
If this is more than a thought we would find proves in direct experience. otherwise it would be like saying "The world is crowded by blue aliens - no one ever has seen one - but I know they are here!"
This proof seems to be the body, with thoughts arising in its awareness. I can't see the source of thoughts directly, but I infer it indirectly due to the body history and reactions during thinking.

The blue alien part was funny :)
Take some time and sit quietly for about 30 minutes and notice the arising thoughts.
Just let them appear as they appear. Try your best to COMPLETELY ignore what they are
saying and just notice how they appear without you doing anything at all.
Where are they coming from and going to?
Did you do anything to make a particular thought or thoughts appear?
Could you have done anything to make a different thought appear at that exact moment
instead?
Can you predict your next thought?
Can you select from a range of thoughts to have only pleasant thoughts?
Can you choose not to have painful, negative or fearful thoughts?
Can you pick and choose any kind of thought?
Is it possible to prevent a thought from appearing?
No evidence of control. But when there are thoughts + attention in thoughts, it gives the impression of voluntary thinking. When there are thoughts, but attention is somewhere else, it gives the impression of involuntary thinking.

I will continue practicing this.
Can you find any hidden "I" in the middle of it as a source of thought?
I infer it is the body, as said above.

Sds,
Nelson

User avatar
Verananda
Posts: 721
Joined: Tue Jun 12, 2018 3:14 am

Re: Please, help me see this once for all

Postby Verananda » Thu Feb 07, 2019 12:49 pm

ego backlash -> and what is this ????

I don't remember who coined this term but it refers to this pattern of bad emotions during this type of investigation.
so it is emotions (labled "bad" by thought)
I guess some thought?
anything else?
Can you find an ego in this backlash?

Lets investigat this.:
This proof seems to be the body, with thoughts arising in its awareness.
"thoughts arising" -> yes, thats direct experience
"in its awareness" -> in the awareness of the body? Is this perceptible?
I can't see the source of thoughts directly,
yes, thats seen in direct experience
but I infer it indirectly due to the body history and reactions during thinking.
Im not sure if I understand what you want to say .....
Is this more than thought?
Can you find any hidden "I" in the middle of it as a source of thought?

I infer it is the body, as said above.
and this proof is based on thought?
do I understand right?
anything else?

love ve


Return to “ARCHIVES”

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 6 guests