RiverRock

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forgetmenot
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Re: RiverRock

Postby forgetmenot » Fri Feb 15, 2019 12:36 am

Hey John,
I just don't want to get stuck on the words. I know what I felt and/or meant when I talked about sense of self and that equating to non personal pure experience. I just don't limit what I was referring to, to a "bodily" sensation.
You are correct! The ‘aliveness’ always IS and does not need anything to prove that it IS and is certainly not limited to the sensation labelled as the body. This sensation is not always awared and therefore ‘comes and goes’. The sense of Self you were referring to is not the sense of self (person) that some still get caught on and say that they ‘feel’ that there is still a ‘sense of self/me’. The exercise was just to clarify and clear any hidden misconceptions.

There is no such thing as pure experience. 'Pure' implies duality. Pure compared to what exactly? Pure from what ?!

Okay, so continuing on with our exploration of the body. Here is an even deeper investigation of the body. Please follow each step, don't leave out any. Take your time. Don't move to the next step until the previous one is clearly seen. Repeat the exercise several times.

Stand in front of a bigger mirror.

(1) First, close the eyes and feel the sensations labelled ‘body’.

(2) Then open the eyes and look into the mirror while still paying attention to the sensations.

Is there any connection between the felt sensations and the image in the mirror?
Or just thoughts (and/or mental images) suggest that there is?


(3) While still paying attention to the sensations move one hand and observe the movement from the mirror.

Is there any connection between the felt sensations (labelled ‘hand’) and image of movement in the mirror?

(4) Now do the same movement with the hand, but this time look at the hand directly, not from the mirror.

Is there any connection between the felt sensations (labelled ‘hand’) and the image ‘of movement’?
Or only thoughts suggest it?


(5) Now, pay attention only to the image in the mirror.

Does the image by itself suggest in any way that is ‘you’ or ‘your body’?
Does the image itself suggest in any way that it is a ‘body’ at all?
Or are there only colours and shapes?


(6) Where the mirror ends, some parts of the body (probably legs) cannot be seen.

Just by the image in the mirror, is there any ‘knowledge’ that there must be legs, or only thoughts and mental images suggest so?

(7) Now turn away from the mirror and look forward (don’t look directly to any body parts).

Is there a ‘body’ anywhere when all thoughts and images are ignored, or are there only sensations?

(8) Start to walk slowly.

Is there a ‘body walking’, or are there only sensations?
Is there actual experience of ‘walking’ at all?
Or just THOUGHTS ABOUT ‘walking’?
Can such a thing as ‘body’ be found OR just THOUGHTS ABOUT a ‘body’?
Can such a thing as ‘walking’ be found?


(9) Are the sensations localized in space, like ‘going through the room’; OR is there only an image that is labelled ‘room’ and appearing sensations without any location?

Love, Kay
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https://freedomalreadyis.com/

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Re: RiverRock

Postby Drumps » Fri Feb 15, 2019 7:05 pm

Hi Kay,

Thanks for the post. I plan to work on that exercise tomorrow. Bring on the weekend! :) I will report back to you how it goes.

In the meantime I wanted to share an issue that has been occupying my mind throughout today. It relates to a comment of yours that you mentioned a few posts ago and I already commented on.
If you look…to what exactly is it a problem “when thought is very active and when it sucks you in”? And what exactly is it that is “getting sucked in”?
I thought about this for quite a bit of time yesterday. And the answer, of course, to both of those points is thought. It is only to thought that it is a problem when the sucking in happens, and it is only thought (upon thought) that gets sucked in.
This issue about how and when thought sucks you in is something that is quite important and interesting to me. Because I can do mind/thought exercises when I sit calmly in my garden and it is totally clear I am not my thoughts and they just pop up. But when you find yourself in a high pressure situation or if you are deeply engrossed in a highly "personal" thought it is much more difficult to find that distance between you and the thought and in those situations I think most people would feel they are, indeed, the thought - if they're being honest.

And I got thinking about your comment and question "If you look…to what exactly is it a problem “when thought is very active and when it sucks you in”? And what exactly is it that is “getting sucked in”?". And my answers of course were right that it is thought that has a problem with it and it is thought that gets sucked in. But at the time of writing, even though I know the answer is right, it felt incomplete to me because I know in those moments of engrossing thought you can have all your fancy thoughts, over there, that it is just thought that is doing this but, over here, I feel this thought is me.

And then I got thinking some about what thought does to perception and how basically it distorts it. Take a smell. If you were doing a blind test and someone told you that a strange smell was a $100 plate of haute cuisine food you would probably find it appealing, even if it smelled a bit funny. But if your commentator then said no, they got it wrong and it's actually a pile of rotting garbage then your perception would immediately change. Same with so many things. Isn't the classic one you are eating meat which you are enjoying until someone breaks the news to you that it is your dog and it is immediately revolting. Sounds, images, even feelings/sensations are totally changed based on what we are thinking about it and what concepts, meanings, labels we attach to them. Even though the source experience remains the same.

And this brings me back to thoughts. Some of them are "light" and easy to isolate, as I think about it, and know that they are just passing arising thoughts (from no-where). While I'm thinking them, thought is telling me they are not so heavy or important. However, others, which are also just thought, have other thoughts on top of them which are saying they are very important, and these thoughts are mine and must be engaged in and resolved for my own good. Often, too often, the underlying implication of the top thought is that the thought below it is a matter of life or death. So they engulf me. But it is just thought doing that. It is just thought distorting my perception of those base thoughts to make me feel I am inside them. AND THAT THEY ARE ME. Just the same as they can say the same smell is beautiful or repulsive. They can say a thought is a passing puff of air, or they are foundationaly me. But it's all a lie. I don't know if I am going on a bit about this but it's quite important to me. Because those all consuming thoughts have always been a problem for me when we talk about thought, where is comes from etc. The really heavy thoughts seem to cut against the work I have been doing. But it is clear to me now it is just thoughts on top of thought creating a mirage of me as the thought.

Put simply, it is just thought that says a thought is me, and because of the distorting power of thought, thought gets taken in and believes it.

That's all. I'll come back again tomorrow.

Love , John

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Re: RiverRock

Postby forgetmenot » Sat Feb 16, 2019 1:48 am

Hey John,
Put simply, it is just thought that says a thought is me, and because of the distorting power of thought, thought gets taken in and believes it.
A thought is much like a piece of graffiti scribbled on a wall. Graffiti doesn't know the wall exists. It doesn't know it is appearing on the wall. It doesn't know whether its words are true or not. It doesn't know that it is saying anything. It doesn't know anything whatsoever. Similarly, a thought is just a bit of decoration appearing in THIS. It appears. You are aware of it. But it knows nothing whatsoever about reality. And that is all there is to thought

So with that in mind, how does thought, which isn’t aware “get taken in and believe” anything? Are you not clear, in that moment that thought is unclear? And even if confusion/doubt is appearing…aren’t you clear that confusion/doubt is showing up in the show that is never confused or doubtful about what shows up in it?

Example of thoughts arising…

Sensation arising labelled painful, stomach, hunger:

Thought 1: I’m hungry
Thought 2: I think there’s some bread in the fridge (possible mental image of bread in fridge)
Thought 3: No there isn’t, I ate it last night
Thought 4: I could go to the shops (possible mental image of shops)…
Thought 27: I have been thinking about food.

Now when we look at this, do we find thought 27 has any knowledge of any of the other thoughts, let alone them all? It seems that way, but when we look closely, what is found?

Love, Kay
Nothing real can be threatened. Nothing unreal exists.
https://freedomalreadyis.com/

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Re: RiverRock

Postby Drumps » Sat Feb 16, 2019 6:55 pm

Hi Kay,

I want to hold you on this thought issue for a bit. Because what interests me is why exactly thought can be so seductive to the point where we believe they are our thoughts and in a real sense US THINKING. In a way, that the thoughts are us. When the exercises we have done up to this point have shown that in - lets call it controlled circumstances - we can easily watch thoughts and see that they pop up from nowhere, are not controlled by anyone and come and go and thoughts themselves don't know anything etc etc.

But I want to bring you back to the seductive thoughts, which if we're being honest, is most of them, where there ain't any distance between us and them and they seem to be us. You know what I mean by that and yet I have noticed that you haven't really picked that up much from my last post.

Why do we think in most circumstances thoughts are us and are us thinking, ie being caused by us?? Because this is a fairly central point for me, and I guess most people. Because if I am thinking those thoughts, then I exist.. If I can honestly face up to the problem and explore why it happens, then I have a way of moving forward.

Now, the point I was trying to make on the last post, and it was coming from the exploration as to how thought distorts perception in the other senses, eg sight sound taste, is that it can do the same for thought. It can do the same with thought by distorting my perception of that thought or those thoughts to make them seem like me. That helps me understand what's going on here. And why on the one hand I can be in the middle of thinking and know for sure it is me, and then look back and realise it was just thoughts popping up without anyone doing it. When you say thoughts are just decorative graffiti I understand that. But I don't think I am a piece of graffiti. So let me ask you, why do you think people in general think they are their thoughts? I have already given you my answer, which is that thoughts are distorting our perception of those thoughts ("it's you thinking, this thing matters, your safety is at stake....") to the point that they appear to be a person thinking. Obviously erroneously.
So with that in mind, how does thought, which isn’t aware “get taken in and believe” anything? Are you not clear, in that moment that thought is unclear? And even if confusion/doubt is appearing…aren’t you clear that confusion/doubt is showing up in the show that is never confused or doubtful about what shows up in it?
Thought can't get taken in, no. Then who or what does? Or like I say is it thought distorting the thought? And yet again I hesitate, because thought cannot distort Actual Experience. The distortion of perception must all happen within thought.

Yes I am clear that confusion and doubt and everything else is showing up in experience which is never confused, or fooled or having any preferences.
Now when we look at this, do we find thought 27 has any knowledge of any of the other thoughts, let alone them all? It seems that way, but when we look closely, what is found?
No the thoughts are not connected, to anything. When I woke up this morning I had just been having a very vivid dream. Without going into it all it included me driving past a down and out man living on a tin roof, another well dressed down and out bringing him a cup of tea on the roof, a roadside cafe in an African township full of expatriate families, and me going on a marathon in my home town having left my running shoes at home as well as my running top - and being last in the marathon partly it seems because of that. All in quick succession, vivid, all over the place, coming from nowhere. In my view dreams are just thoughts and behave in the same way. Pictorial and verbal. One dream thought doesn't know anything about the dream thought. And a continuous narrative doesn't exist except, maybe, in thought. But funnily enough, and I'm not sure how sure I am of this but it seems that way, the difference with dreams is I am normally aware that they are a "play" just happening. So maybe they are more truthful than waking experience(?).

I haven't managed to do the proper mirror exercise yet but did a sort of version on a long run this afternoon. Started when I notice the strong sun was behind me so I was running into my shadow, at least at the start of the run. Comments on run:
• Running just feeling the senses in the body.
• Shadow is an image of me? Or just colour changing in a form that thought tells me is me? It’s just colour, like all the other colours in my vista.
• There is no connection between the sensations in my leg and the “shadow”.
• Arms moving back and forth.
• As the run goes on the sensations become more pronounced. Feelings in the legs. Feelings in the arms and head.
• But as I consider them these feelings do not belong to anything and are not located anywhere. They just are.
• Interesting but those same feelings, as the run went on, would normally have represented fatigue to me and pain. But they weren’t on this run. They were just sensation, without meaning.
• And at times I was able to see I wasn’t running. What I had in actual experience was sound, colour, sensation, sometimes smell. But of course I wasn’t running and I didn’t go anywhere, in actual experience.
• And the blue strip of my sun visor was just colour at the top of my vista.
• The thing beating in my chest was not heart and lungs, just sensation. It is really cool to feel that, unattached to anything.
• It wasn’t my body, I wasn’t running, I didn’t move.

That's all for now.

Love, John

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Re: RiverRock

Postby forgetmenot » Sun Feb 17, 2019 12:48 am

Hello John,
Why do we think in most circumstances thoughts are us and are us thinking, ie being caused by us?? Because this is a fairly central point for me, and I guess most people. Because if I am thinking those thoughts, then I exist.. If I can honestly face up to the problem and explore why it happens, then I have a way of moving forward.
Where is the “I” or ‘we’ in this? I never addressed it because everything you think you wrote is just appearing thought. We have looked at the idea of been the thinker of thought and can you find one? If not then what is it exactly that is thinking these thoughts? What is it exactly that is getting caught up in subtle thoughts and what is it exactly that is asking these questions. I am not going to take you down the rabbit hole by discussing something that is irrelevant.
The only thing that needs to happen is for you to LOOK and see if you can find anyone/anything that is doing any of the above. Period.

YOU (not John) are aware of everything that appears/happens....even the IDEA that something has gotten 'lost in thought'. And so what? Were you actually lost in thought?

What is it exactly that can choose what is focussed on...be it thought, colour, smell etc?
But I don't think I am a piece of graffiti.
We have addressed this already in the idea of separation. Who ever said you were a thought? I certainly didn't. The "I" you think you are is a thought..but what you ARE is not a thought.
So let me ask you, why do you think people in general think they are their thoughts?

What people exactly?

“So let me ask you, why do you think people in general think they are their thoughts” is just another thought bubble appearing to no one. Where does a thought end and the knowing of it begin?
I have already given you my answer, which is that thoughts are distorting our perception of those thoughts ("it's you thinking, this thing matters, your safety is at stake....") to the point that they appear to be a person thinking. Obviously erroneously.
I am soooo not interested into the discussions of why, when, where etc so that something sits more comfortably or an itch has been scratched. They are meaningless and pointless questions. LOOK and see who needs to know this and the purpose of the question. That is why this exploration is not a discussion or a dialogue....these discussions can go on forever because thoughts are endless and do nothing but chase their own tail. There are many forums, books, FB groups that will discuss this until eternity if you want to discuss it...but I am not interested. All I am here to do is point so that you LOOK to see if there is anyone who is getting lost in thought etc. If you can't find anyone...then the discussion is moot and it just a time filler.

How? Implies cause.
Why? Implies meaning.
Where? Implies space
When? Implies time.
What? Implies thingness.

I suggest you go back and reread your thread…because we have already addressed all of this…maybe not this precise ‘issue’, but everything we have looked at so far addresses it.

When you have reread it and redone the exercises that you felt a pull to redo…then report back.


Kay
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Re: RiverRock

Postby Drumps » Sun Feb 17, 2019 7:09 pm

Thanks Kay,

You really know how to burst a boys bubble and I think I'm getting the full on Kay bad cop routine (that's a joke).

I hear you in that although the things I have been focusing on in the last couple of posts seem somehow to matter to me (why it is that thought seduces me into thinking it is me thinking) you have pointed out that it is all totally and utterly irrelevant once it has been accepted that there is no person and things just arise in experience, including the feeling that someone is believing thoughts are them, and experience remains forever unaffected. I understand.

I am going to take your advice and regroup and spend some time going over my thread to see what I have missed. Last time I did that it was a very productive exercise. It will take several days.

Stay with me (that is not a joke).

John

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Re: RiverRock

Postby forgetmenot » Mon Feb 18, 2019 12:14 am

Hello John,
You really know how to burst a boys bubble and I think I'm getting the full on Kay bad cop routine (that's a joke).
Yep...I pulled out the zen stick. I have been known to do that.
I hear you in that although the things I have been focusing on in the last couple of posts seem somehow to matter to me (why it is that thought seduces me into thinking it is me thinking) you have pointed out that it is all totally and utterly irrelevant once it has been accepted that there is no person and things just arise in experience, including the feeling that someone is believing thoughts are them, and experience remains forever unaffected. I understand.
There is no one who is being seduced by thought. That in itself is a thought.
I am going to take your advice and regroup and spend some time going over my thread to see what I have missed. Last time I did that it was a very productive exercise. It will take several days.

Stay with me (that is not a joke).
I am not going anywhere, but I do insist on looking happening and not thinking. Take your time reading your thread.

Kay
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Re: RiverRock

Postby Drumps » Sun Feb 24, 2019 3:10 pm

Hi Kay,

Well I'm back!

I think that's been about a week since we last communicated. I said it would be a few days but what happened was I kind of took a break from looking at this and settled into basically doing nothing, and didn't question it, or why it was happening. But it felt right anyway. It has been a bit of an intense almost 2 months and, as we've said, I think I've come on a bit, but a small break was needed which I didn't realise until it happened by itself.

I didn't really start going back over my thread until Friday and continued over Saturday and this morning. And having done so it is fairly clear to me, and I guess you, that most of what you have pointed to I have grasped, and frankly we were going great guns until around the 10th or so when I started to get bogged down on thought and what I described as the seductive thoughts that "suck me in" and make me think there is a me doing it. I guess most people, sooner or later, get bogged down on something or other, and that was the cross I had to bear. Which is a pity because only a couple of days before that I thought I was going to sprint over the finishing line like an Olympic athlete, and then all of a sudden it felt more like I had been disqualified for a false start.

Anyway you weren't having any of it and weren't letting me drag you (or myself) down the rabbit hole, as you put it. Nor were you interested on my various theories about how thought alters perception blahblahblah.....I thought you were being unfair (and not giving my theory its due) and I very much wanted to have that discussion with you and explore my ideas about the mechanism by which thought makes me think its me having it. But you knew that I was missing the point entirely.

Thought is just thought and there's no-one having it or making thoughts happen. There is no-one behind them. And that applies equally to the thoughts that suggest strongly there is a me. The content is irrelevant. I was trying to find why thought makes me feel strongly that there is a me in them, when there isn't a me, in them or anything else. So what if there's a thought saying I exist?? That's just the same as any other thought. Comes from nowhere, for no-one. And as you rightly said "..to who or what exactly is it a problem when "I" get sucked in to thought and what exactly is it that gets sucked in?" It is a problem to no-one, and no-one or nothing gets sucked in. Yes, there is thought of "sucking in" (no problemo) but that IS JUST A THOUGHT.

Another thing I have been thinking about is that it is clear I have been placing too much importance on thought, elevating it above the other sense providers soundcoloursensesmelltaste(thought). And I obviously know that is wrong, and a bad road to go down, but a mistake I guess many people make. Thought is just AE like colour, sound, taste etc and with as much meaning (ie, none). It's all just THIS, not good or bad but just the way things are. The problem comes when we think thoughts have a special importance, and they don't. A thought is known which says (perhaps loudly) there is a me. So fucking what!? Don't get worked up about it. It's like getting hung up about the colour blue!

A thought can be found. Can a thinker of the thought be found? Can an "I" be found in the thought itself?
Yes...No...No.

This is about looking at what is actually present in Actual Experience and if it isn't there, it isn't there. It is nothing but imaginary thoughts. Anything you can't find is a story told by thought, to no-one. Where is Johnself? Where? So if he's not there then he is just the content/subject of a thought, in Experience. Nothing more. And I think along the way I had perhaps sort of forgotten, or mislaid, that.

I liked another incidental comment you made that I read over again which has been ringing in my ears today. "If I'm not a person, what am I?" We've covered that and I have had strong glimpses of what I am. And then the siren call of thought did their work on me. (NO they didn't, thoughts just arose, no-one was behind them and they were for no-one).

I must be honest and say that I am not completely out of the woods yet. But I think I have found enough crumbs to lead me back onto the path. Maybe more than crumbs.

And by the way, I forgive you. ;-)

Love, John

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Re: RiverRock

Postby forgetmenot » Sun Feb 24, 2019 10:27 pm

Hey John,
I kind of took a break from looking at this and settled into basically doing nothing, and didn't question it, or why it was happening. But it felt right anyway. It has been a bit of an intense almost 2 months and, as we've said, I think I've come on a bit, but a small break was needed which I didn't realise until it happened by itself.
Great move! Taking a break helps to get out of the grind that this exploration can sometimes become with all the new that has been explored and the old that still arises….so the forest isn’t seen for all the trees.
Thought is just thought and there's no-one having it or making thoughts happen. There is no-one behind them. And that applies equally to the thoughts that suggest strongly there is a me. The content is irrelevant. I was trying to find why thought makes me feel strongly that there is a me in them, when there isn't a me, in them or anything else. So what if there's a thought saying I exist?? That's just the same as any other thought. Comes from nowhere, for no-one. And as you rightly said "..to who or what exactly is it a problem when "I" get sucked in to thought and what exactly is it that gets sucked in?" It is a problem to no-one, and no-one or nothing gets sucked in. Yes, there is thought of "sucking in" (no problemo) but that IS JUST A THOUGHT.
I often have thoughts that say something along the lines of:- “it feels like it’s Saturday today” when it is actually Monday or “I feel like having a pizza for dinner”. Just because thought says something feels like something or feels like something else…doesn’t make it so. Thought can say that I am a pink elephant and that doesn’t make it so! :) It is about looking at what thought is pointing to, and the best way to check if it is pointing to AE or to further thought, is by using the blahblahblah tool.
The problem comes when we think thoughts have a special importance, and they don't. A thought is known which says (perhaps loudly) there is a me. So fucking what!? Don't get worked up about it. It's like getting hung up about the colour blue!
Yes, exactly! There is no hierarchy in thought. One thought is not more important than another. To what exactly would one thought be more important than another? Thoughts are not the catalyst for doing/action. If thoughts were expressed via the tweeting of birds or an unknown language, how would you know what they meant? What meaning is given to thoughts are only just thoughts about thoughts.
I liked another incidental comment you made that I read over again which has been ringing in my ears today. "If I'm not a person, what am I?" We've covered that and I have had strong glimpses of what I am. And then the siren call of thought did their work on me. (NO they didn't, thoughts just arose, no-one was behind them and they were for no-one).
Hmmm... Is there a you to have or not to have a self?
What would it feel like not to be a person? What it 'feels like' right now, is what it 'feels like' to not be a person. But thought doesn't know that, hence the 'expectation'.
And by the way, I forgive you. ;-)
Thanks for the laugh…I enjoyed it immensely! :D

Okay…so we have covered thought, control, decision making, choice and much more to date. We will look at the idea of the body now.

Sit with eyes closed for about 15 minutes.
Paying attention only to the pure sensations, without relying on thoughts or mental images:

Can it be known how tall the body is?
Does the body have a weight or volume?
In the actual experience does the body have a shape or a form?

Is there a boundary between the body and the clothing?
Is there a boundary between the body and the chair?

Is there an inside or an outside? If there is an inside - inside of what exactly?
If there is an outside, the outside of what exactly?

What does the word/label ‘body’ ACTUALLY refer to?
What is the ACTUAL experience of the body?


Look very carefully, especially with the last question. Take your time, don’t rush. You can look several times during the day while doing other things (like washing hands, showering, having a short break from work, walking, etc.) before replying.

Love, Kay
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https://freedomalreadyis.com/

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Re: RiverRock

Postby Drumps » Mon Feb 25, 2019 6:18 pm

Hi Kay,
I’m sort of on the move permanently today and struggling to get the time to sit down and do that exercise so will come back to you tomorrow.
It’s an exercise I have done before previously which is fine by me.
I am in your capable hands.
Cheers,
John

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Re: RiverRock

Postby forgetmenot » Tue Feb 26, 2019 1:53 am

Hey John,

Thanks for letting me know. And yep, it is an exercise you have already done...but sometimes there is a method to my madness ;)

Love, Kay
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Re: RiverRock

Postby Drumps » Tue Feb 26, 2019 6:51 pm

Hi Kay,

Quite enjoyed doing that exercise again. Managed to do it last night before going to bed and a couple of times throughout today.
Can it be known how tall the body is?
Does the body have a weight or volume?
In the actual experience does the body have a shape or a form?
No of course unless you are using thought there is no sense that the body has any defining characteristics at all. No size shape or form. Last night I was sitting outside in my garden just paying attention, with my eyes closed, to actual experience, and it felt really nice, not being tied to the old body I have been dragging around for more than 5 decades. Liberating. There were sensations I felt mixed in with tree leaves rustling and bats yacking above my head and the wind being felt. But without thought they were just one big soup of experience without location, inside or outside me. No distance, or definable distance between me and them , including the sensations within my body which seemed to oscillate from a distance to very close to me. It's funny but when you do it at first it is quite easy to "lose" your body, but somehow the head remains as the point from which you are viewing "no body". But when you focus on the head and realise, without thinking, the head and the brain are not there, then it really frees things up and the sounds and sensations and smells are just swirling around in nothing.
Is there a boundary between the body and the clothing?
Is there a boundary between the body and the chair?
No there is no boundary between those things. There are sensations which are associated with those junctions (shirt on arm, bum on seat) but those are not clear boundaries and vague and only appear when I think about it and, when I don't, they are just floating sensations.
Is there an inside or an outside? If there is an inside - inside of what exactly?
If there is an outside, the outside of what exactly?
No, there is no inside or outside. Just experience. On the one hand it feels like the sounds and sensations are all happening at the spot where I am. On the other, it is diverse and I am not a spot but in all the places when experience is. That's not very well put. But the sensations are happening all in one space, and the sounds. There isn't an inside or an outsside of anything. How could there be?
What does the word/label ‘body’ ACTUALLY refer to?
What is the ACTUAL experience of the body?
The label body points to a series of sensations, and thoughts, and, when the eyes are open, colours, which thought interprets as body.

Actual experience of the body is thought.

Love, John

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forgetmenot
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Re: RiverRock

Postby forgetmenot » Tue Feb 26, 2019 11:15 pm

Hey John,
Can it be known how tall the body is?
Does the body have a weight or volume?
In the actual experience does the body have a shape or a form?
It's funny but when you do it at first it is quite easy to "lose" your body, but somehow the head remains as the point from which you are viewing "no body". But when you focus on the head and realise, without thinking, the head and the brain are not there, then it really frees things up and the sounds and sensations and smells are just swirling around in nothing.
Yes, the head seems to be the centre point of being a person. The idea that the head is where thinking takes place, and where we view life from.

Try this exercise and let me know what you find :)

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DcOUEQh1FR8
Is there an inside or an outside? If there is an inside - inside of what exactly?
If there is an outside, the outside of what exactly?
No, there is no inside or outside. Just experience. On the one hand it feels like the sounds and sensations are all happening at the spot where I am. On the other, it is diverse and I am not a spot but in all the places when experience is. That's not very well put. But the sensations are happening all in one space, and the sounds. There isn't an inside or an outsside of anything. How could there be?
Here is another interesting exercise. Let me know what you find.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FNwED9JkzSw

Love, Kay
Nothing real can be threatened. Nothing unreal exists.
https://freedomalreadyis.com/

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Drumps
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Re: RiverRock

Postby Drumps » Wed Feb 27, 2019 6:48 pm

Hi Kay,

This is quite good and territory I am quite familiar with through Douglas Harding and the Headless way. When I first heard and read about it I thought it sounded infantile and more than a bit silly but the longer you look into it the more profound it becomes. And then you realise there are 2 ways to look at this stuff the "relative" way in which it seems a bit daft to say I don't have a head (you've got a head, I've got a head), and then the non-relative/first person way in which I base everything only on my actual experience and off course then I have no head, only an open, boundless screen, with sound and other effects. When you go through life with no head it is truly liberating. Also in challenging situations I sometimes remember to switch to headless mode and it has an amazing effect, of your body continuing to do what it does and speech coming from me but in a much more free way. And I am not looking out from a head or a brain but just an empty fullness neatly perched on top of my head. It's great fun. I have to say Douglas Hardings videos are a lot better than these ones. But I have done the exercises.
Try this exercise and let me know what you find :)

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DcOUEQh1FR8
Yes using my phone to do this there is a face at the end of my arm that I am very familiar with, having seen it before, but I'm viewing it from empty space. And this ties in very well with the previous stuff we have worked on where we must base things on our actual experience. And in that sense, I am experience looking at colours which my brain interprets as a head, and in addition tells me I've seen it before. But it's not me, or even a head, and I haven't seen it before. That's all only in thought.
Here is another interesting exercise. Let me know what you find.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FNwED9JkzSw
This is a new one on me and quite cool. And a fresh way to look at the body as something "out there" which you are clearly not "in". There are sensations but those are floating and can't be pinned down to the colours in front of me.

However it's interesting when you point to where the head would be. which I guess is where consciousness is, that has a funny effect. I can't remember if I told you a while back when doing one of those exercises (it's always in my garden) starting by pointing at the feet and then working up, addressing the various body parts you can see. And then when you turn round and point to the void/emptiness where the head is (was), it really had the most profound effect on me. I would say the first time I ever really had a very heightened experience where what I felt (it wasn't a feeling) was that instead of my head, was everything. Simple as that. Then my son came out shouting about something and after 5 seconds it was gone. But I'll never forget it and do often get milder echos of it.

Love, John

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forgetmenot
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Re: RiverRock

Postby forgetmenot » Wed Feb 27, 2019 11:28 pm

Hello John,
However it's interesting when you point to where the head would be. which I guess is where consciousness is, that has a funny effect.
Why would consciousness be where the head would be? That is still the idea that experience/consciousness is ‘here’ seeing things ‘out there’?

Is "knowing" (consciousness), separate from what is “known", or are they one and the same?


Look at the display before you.
When seeing it, is there any division between seeing, seer, and the seen?
Are these three separate?
If yes, could you find the boundary between the three? Not an imagined, conceptual boundary, but an actual boundary that can be perceived with one or more of the senses.


Love, Kay
Nothing real can be threatened. Nothing unreal exists.
https://freedomalreadyis.com/


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