RiverRock

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Drumps
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Re: RiverRock

Postby Drumps » Thu Feb 28, 2019 5:56 pm

Hi Kay,
Why would consciousness be where the head would be? That is still the idea that experience/consciousness is ‘here’ seeing things ‘out there’?
I can’t get anything past you can I? If course you’re right. And I didn’t explain very well as is my want sometime. Consciousness isn’t anywhere and it certainly isn’t in a non existent head. Like I tried to explain to you when I had my ‘moment’ the place where the head had been thought to be is replaced by everything. And I mean that. So it’s not at all that consciousness is in a little box. It’s everywhere. But that was just a short 5 seconds or so experience. What would have been a better way of explaining it would have been to say I pointed to where I thought consciousness was and found that not only was there not a head there, I found everything in my experience there instead.
Is "knowing" (consciousness), separate from what is “known", or are they one and the same?
No, knowing is not separate from what is known as we have found in several experiments. And if someone says there is separation I would ask them to show me exactly where the dividing line is. Which they can’t do, because there patently is none. Sound, color, smell, touch. In every case the experience of it and the phenomenon are the same thing.
Look at the display before you.
When seeing it, is there any division between seeing, seer, and the seen?
Are these three separate?
Seeing = verb.
Seer = subject.
Seen = object.

Seems on the surface to be 3 distinct things. But the more you look at, and investigate the matter it is ALL ONE UNDIVIDABLE (no)THING.

The verb thing I find quite funny. How do you “do seeing”? It’s not actually an action at all is it? It is experience experiencing itself. As you have said in the past, Self-Aware. Awareness aware of nothing but itself.

Love, John

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Re: RiverRock

Postby forgetmenot » Thu Feb 28, 2019 10:09 pm

Hey John,
Why would consciousness be where the head would be? That is still the idea that experience/consciousness is ‘here’ seeing things ‘out there’?
I can’t get anything past you can I?
Nope! :)
If course you’re right. And I didn’t explain very well as is my want sometime. Consciousness isn’t anywhere and it certainly isn’t in a non existent head. Like I tried to explain to you when I had my ‘moment’ the place where the head had been thought to be is replaced by everything. And I mean that. So it’s not at all that consciousness is in a little box. It’s everywhere. But that was just a short 5 seconds or so experience. What would have been a better way of explaining it would have been to say I pointed to where I thought consciousness was and found that not only was there not a head there, I found everything in my experience there instead.
Lovely! :)
Is "knowing" (consciousness), separate from what is “known", or are they one and the same?
No, knowing is not separate from what is known as we have found in several experiments. And if someone says there is separation I would ask them to show me exactly where the dividing line is. Which they can’t do, because there patently is none. Sound, color, smell, touch. In every case the experience of it and the phenomenon are the same thing.
Yes, experience is the appearance of blue, but experience does not become blue. If experience actually became blue, it would never be anything else but blue.

It’s like those 3D hidden picture paintings. Perception of what is seen changes…but the painting itself doesn’t change.
The verb thing I find quite funny. How do you “do seeing”? It’s not actually an action at all is it? It is experience experiencing itself. As you have said in the past, Self-Aware. Awareness aware of nothing but itself.
How does experience, experience itself exactly? How does experience, experience blue, for example, or experience taste when it IS taste? A rainbow IS colour, it doesn't consist of colours!

Are you aware of two experiences at one time? Are you aware of sound and the experience of sound?


Here is an even deeper investigation of the body. Please follow each step, don't leave out any. Take your time. Don't move to the next step until the previous one is clearly seen. Repeat the exercise several times.

Stand in front of a bigger mirror.

(1) First, close the eyes and feel the sensations labelled ‘body’.

(2) Then open the eyes and look into the mirror while still paying attention to the sensations.

Is there any connection between the felt sensations and the image in the mirror?
Or just thoughts (and/or mental images) suggest that there is?


(3) While still paying attention to the sensations move one hand and observe the movement from the mirror.

Is there any connection between the felt sensations (labelled ‘hand’) and image of movement in the mirror?

(4) Now do the same movement with the hand, but this time look at the hand directly, not from the mirror.

Is there any connection between the felt sensations (labelled ‘hand’) and the image ‘of movement’?
Or only thoughts suggest it?


(5) Now, pay attention only to the image in the mirror.

Does the image by itself suggest in any way that is ‘you’ or ‘your body’?
Does the image itself suggest in any way that it is a ‘body’ at all?
Or are there only colours and shapes?


(6) Where the mirror ends, some parts of the body (probably legs) cannot be seen.

Just by the image in the mirror, is there any ‘knowledge’ that there must be legs, or only thoughts and mental images suggest so?

(7) Now turn away from the mirror and look forward (don’t look directly to any body parts).

Is there a ‘body’ anywhere when all thoughts and images are ignored, or are there only sensations?

(8) Start to walk slowly.

Is there a ‘body walking’, or are there only sensations?
Is there actual experience of ‘walking’ at all?
Or just THOUGHTS ABOUT ‘walking’?
Can such a thing as ‘body’ be found OR just THOUGHTS ABOUT a ‘body’?
Can such a thing as ‘walking’ be found?


(9) Are the sensations localized in space, like ‘going through the room’; OR is there only an image that is labelled ‘room’ and appearing sensations without any location?

Love, Kay
Nothing real can be threatened. Nothing unreal exists.
https://freedomalreadyis.com/

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Re: RiverRock

Postby Drumps » Sat Mar 02, 2019 4:17 pm

Hi Kay,
I didn’t manage to do any of this yesterday and have only managed only one run at it today. I will come back to you tomorrow when I will have plenty more time to do it properly.
John

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Re: RiverRock

Postby Drumps » Sun Mar 03, 2019 11:35 am

Hi Kay,
(1) First, close the eyes and feel the sensations labelled ‘body’.
Done.
(2) Then open the eyes and look into the mirror while still paying attention to the sensations.

Is there any connection between the felt sensations and the image in the mirror?
Or just thoughts (and/or mental images) suggest that there is?
I tried this a few times and struggled with it. Preconceptions built up over a lifetime don't drop just like that. Then I found when, as you suggest, you make sure while doing this part of the exercise that you stay focused on the sensations, it becomes easier. I think that is the important part because otherwise thought keeps linking the image with the sensations. When focused on sensations it is easier to see that there are actually no connections between those sensations and the colours and shapes in front of me. Thought keeps arising that promotes the connection but when you bring the focus back into sensation it is easier to counter that. And interestingly while doing this I started to feel those sensations in the body quite intensely much more than I would normally feel. And the more intense the feeling the less you link them with the image in front of you.
(3) While still paying attention to the sensations move one hand and observe the movement from the mirror.

Is there any connection between the felt sensations (labelled ‘hand’) and image of movement in the mirror?
Again, quite a tough one where you are cutting across a lifetimes built up associations. Lets not play down it is not so easy to look at "your hand" moving and not associate the feelings directly with that. However, what I found worked was to consciously suspend thought, put it on the back seat as it were and see how that goes. Just focus on the raw senses that I am experiencing and kind of go deeper into them. And then what I would say is that the sensations and colours are not necessarily different, but not at the same time any more connected than anything else. For example the sensations and the moving shapes do not seem to be any more connected to each other than they are to the rain I can hear outside my window. It's all just part of a continuum.

(4) Now do the same movement with the hand, but this time look at the hand directly, not from the mirror.

Is there any connection between the felt sensations (labelled ‘hand’) and the image ‘of movement’?
Or only thoughts suggest it?
Again, not easy and the exercise seems to be building layers of investigation. Progressively more challenging. But again, while focusing primarily on sensation, I am clear that it does not exist in any location. It is just a sensation which thought tries to place. And the colours in front of me that thought interprets as "hand" are just, when left alone as they are, colours and no such thing as a hand, and also not located in a precise spatial position. So how can you put together a placeless sensation and moving colours. The only way to do that, to "achieve" that is through a thought story.
The hand is the part of our body that we see most often in daily life directly, it's our primary tool. And therefore, perhaps in some way the one we most associate with ourselves and our body - and we certainly would do so without mirrors. So it has a seductive pull. But when I focus just on the senses that I actually experience, I see that the only link between the felt sensations and the image is thought, and only thought however compelling it tries to be.
(5) Now, pay attention only to the image in the mirror.

Does the image by itself suggest in any way that is ‘you’ or ‘your body’?
Does the image itself suggest in any way that it is a ‘body’ at all?
Or are there only colours and shapes?
I spent quite a long time with this just standing in front of the mirror and this for me was an important stage. I consciously put all thoughts totally aside and just looked dispassionately at what was in front of me. After a while it took me back to my first (and penultimate) LSD experience where I had what I believe they call a "bad trip" and totally forgot everything about who or what I (or anything else) was. I won't go into that but the feeling as I stood in the mirror was, as long as I focused on the shapes and colours, of looking at something faintly ridiculous and unfamiliar. Comical. Long dangly bits from each of the top left and right corners with spider like extremities. All resting on 2 columns at the bottom on flat pieces with what look like suckers at the end of them. A gnarly ball on top with protrusions sticking out and a small bit of hair on top. What am I? Surely not this! We spend so much of our lives desperately associating ourselves with this body and judging ourselves in terms of how it appears that it comes as a shock when we strip this process of thought and just look at AE and what is there, that it's not really all it's cracked up to be, and if what we truly are is this physical contraption, which is also in a process of constant decline and decay, then that ain't too much to hang our hat on. I hope this image is not me or my body. And indeed it doesn't feel that way right now.
(6) Where the mirror ends, some parts of the body (probably legs) cannot be seen.

Just by the image in the mirror, is there any ‘knowledge’ that there must be legs, or only thoughts and mental images suggest so?
My mirror goes the whole way to the floor so I have done this by moving to the side so my body is bisected. The other half isn't there of course. And is exactly as real in my experience/awareness (I prefer awareness by the way) as Norway or the tree falling in a forest. Which is to say, not real at all. And only existing in thought. Half of what I have come to call my body, merges with a hardwood timber frame. I think I prefer my body this way. ;-) Just one of everything - why be greedy? And I guess while we're at it, why be greedy wanting Norway and trees, and experiences and situations and people and achievements and many other things which simply aren't there. When what is there isn't so bad really at all. The person is by nature greedy, isn't he. He wants all these things because Johnself is, by definition, what makes me unhappy with now (maybe I should correct that, which leads to thoughts of dissatisfaction arising). He is, by definition, that dissatisfaction. That ultimately is what the thought person is - desires, expectations, aversions, resistance, craving - which at the end of the day are the same thing. But as I stand here I am quite happy with half of a body which is not half of anything.
(7) Now turn away from the mirror and look forward (don’t look directly to any body parts).

Is there a ‘body’ anywhere when all thoughts and images are ignored, or are there only sensations?
Out of body experience. :) Very relaxing to stand, without a body, or a head at the window looking out at the garden. The rain has stopped now and birds are tweeting (the best kind of tweet). Just resting as, I guess, conscious presence, the only evidence of a body I can see are my glasses rims (which, before you tell me are just colours and nothing more!). In this state you have a feeling of lightness and a strong connection with what I am seeing and hearing. The body isn't anywhere because thought is silent. Sensations are felt but, again, not in any particular place and certainly not in something called a body. Floating. Nice way to be. :)
(8) Start to walk slowly.

Is there a ‘body walking’, or are there only sensations?
Is there actual experience of ‘walking’ at all?
Or just THOUGHTS ABOUT ‘walking’?
Can such a thing as ‘body’ be found OR just THOUGHTS ABOUT a ‘body’?
Can such a thing as ‘walking’ be found?

(9) Are the sensations localized in space, like ‘going through the room’; OR is there only an image that is labelled ‘room’ and appearing sensations without any location?
Walking around my house from room to room. Seeing colours pass and merge into me. The strongest sensation that I get while doing this is that I'M NOT GOING ANYWHERE AT ALL. Not moving and not located anywhere, but definitely not moving. Rooms are just colours, space, at the end of the day, is just colour that mind interprets as space. I still can's see the body so there are no thoughts about that and thoughts are not prevalent. Interesting each time I pass a mirror and a strange non-recognition of what is in my vision. Then thought tries to grapple free and something knocks him down again. And when I finish walking around I end up at the full length mirror and what is presented in front of me doesn't look any less strange.

Interesting exercise.

Before going I just wanted to say a couple more things. Recently I have been struggling with ideas of being a bit stuck, a bit in limbo. I really thought a few weeks ago that I was on the verge of a breakthrough and it didn't happen and I have this strong feeling of being stuck on a plateau. All of this stuff is now part of me and strongly influences my perspective and yet there is a feeling of having missed the boat and not grabbed my chance. And, yes, I guess of kind of letting you down, which I know is ridiculous and not the way it works, but the whole point of this is about being honest and so I can do nothing but say how I feel. It kind of feels as if something got dislodged around about that exchange when we had our little disagreement about how thought sucks you in. I'm not sure if it's just because that made me lose a bit of momentum. And now these recent days I'm not sure if my push should be to get up some momentum again or perhaps ease off a bit and just take things as they come. I know of course this is all about expectation and how it works and perhaps the best thing to do is just notice that expectation and not be drawn into it as a real thing. It's just what is arising. And yes I guess there are also fears arising about being stuck in this incomplete state (I know, I know you don't have to tell me) for a long time and you hear stories of people being stuck there for years. And yet for me there is definitely no going back to "the way I was". I have changed. You've heard of "I'm a Celebrity get me out of here", well this feels more like "I'm Awareness itself, get me out of here!". Actually that's quite funny.
Anyway, any pointers or comments you might have, would be much appreciated. I know this process is something that can't be forced. And yet you read stuff saying you have to want it desperately to get you there. I feel like I'm 80% there and I suppose, on reflection, I wouldn't give back anything I have learned because it has enriched my life enormously. I'm just not there.

Lots of love, John

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Re: RiverRock

Postby forgetmenot » Mon Mar 04, 2019 1:42 am

Hey John,

Nice looking with the body exercise :)

This is an exercise to just help solidify what you noticed when doing the deeper body exercise.

Normally we believe that sensation is coming from sight - the object seen. In this example, the object being the ‘hand’.

1. Close the eyes and hold up one hand. Pay attention only to the felt sensation ‘of the hand’.
2. Open the eyes, and now observe the hand by looking only.
3. While looking at the hand, pay attention to the felt sensations.

Repeat 1 to 3 as many times as needed and investigate…

Can you see that both the ‘visual sight’ and the sensation appear simultaneously but ‘separately’, meaning that none of them is coming from the other or contained by the other?

Do they just appear equally, ‘beside’ each other without any hierarchy or link between them?

Is there any link between the sensation and the sight, meaning that the sensation is ‘coming from’ the sight (labelled as ‘hand’) or only thought and mental constructs link them?

Before going I just wanted to say a couple more things. Recently I have been struggling with ideas of being a bit stuck, a bit in limbo.

Anyway, any pointers or comments you might have, would be much appreciated. I know this process is something that can't be forced. And yet you read stuff saying you have to want it desperately to get you there. I feel like I'm 80% there and I suppose, on reflection, I wouldn't give back anything I have learned because it has enriched my life enormously. I'm just not there.
Okay…so going back to my very first questions to you when we started this exploration…I want you to ponder them and then answer them again please.

How will life change?
How will you change?
What will be different?
What is missing?


Love, Kay
Nothing real can be threatened. Nothing unreal exists.
https://freedomalreadyis.com/

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Re: RiverRock

Postby Drumps » Mon Mar 04, 2019 7:00 pm

Hi Kay,
Can you see that both the ‘visual sight’ and the sensation appear simultaneously but ‘separately’, meaning that none of them is coming from the other or contained by the other?
Yes I can see that. As I hold my hand up the appearance of the hand is fixed and static, it's not moving. And yet the sensations I feel there are moving around, and pulsing in different places and sometimes moving in waves up and down the hand. The more times I do this exercise this divergence becomes even more pronounced, I guess because the blood is falling out my hands. But this just reinforces the discord between the 2 experiences, one unmoving and the other organic and restless. So yes they feel separate and in no sense does it feel like one is coming from the other. They are independent and stand on their own.They have an autonomy.
Do they just appear equally, ‘beside’ each other without any hierarchy or link between them?
I think that's a fair way to put it, they appear equally beside each other. And there is certainly no hierarchy between them or any obvious link. One is not superior, or subservient to the other and there is no discernible causal link. Looking deeper they are actually different things anyway. The visual information I see is all coming from the surface of the hand while the pulsing sensations are coming from nerves and neurotransmitters deep inside the hand. So they are different things but in any event that is all a story - it's just colour and sensation.
Is there any link between the sensation and the sight, meaning that the sensation is ‘coming from’ the sight (labelled as ‘hand’) or only thought and mental constructs link them?
How can a sensation be caused by colour? And how can colour be caused by a feeling? I rest my case. And in any event, the sensation is still there when my eyes are closed so they are independent.

So I think I am clear on this.

But, I keep asking myself something and that is, why does this matter? We are here to learn there is no self and no doership and all that matters is what can be found in Actual Experience and what thought (which is AE) says about that is just a story that doesn't matter. And this hand is not "my hand" or even a hand but just colour and sensations. But what I don't understand, even though I can see it, is why it matters or is relevant that the visual sense and feeling sense are independent, not linked. And I say this not to rouse the Kay-Bad-Cop, or to stimulate debate (which we don't want), but because I believe the fact that you are asking me these questions means that they are probably in some way important, and I don't get why. Can you help me?
How will life change?
How will you change?
What will be different?
What is missing?
As a first pitch I am just going to launch myself at these questions without too much navel gazing. I think that way it'd probably be more reflective of where I am.
I am also assuming what these questions require me to answer based on what my expectations are rather than what will happen (ie based on expectation rather than fact).
I have not reread what my answers were the last time.

I still do not expect the outward appearance of life to change (in that good and bad things will happen), except perhaps that the falling away of resistance to WHAT IS may mean that life flows more smoothly.

What will change in me is my perspective. Seeing thoughts of me for what they are rather than somehow living through those thoughts. I would like to think that, as awareness, rather than Little John, I will be open to experience in all its elements and not as constricted as I now, still feel. Things will come and go (I think I'm digging myself deeper) and I will not identify with them and realise their ephemeral nature and abide in that which doesn't change. (I'm not sure my Bullshit detector is working properly, it's not easy to construct these sentences)

What will be different? Boy that's quite a big question. The sense (small sense) of me will be seen for what it is. Just a thought. Even though I know that, I hope it will be fully known in a way which isn't present yet.

What is missing is I suppose the ability, or confidence, or balls to fully accept what I already know.

Yours, slightly apprehensively, John

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Re: RiverRock

Postby forgetmenot » Tue Mar 05, 2019 2:59 am

Hey John,

Here is a great clip about the sensation-sight correlation. I may have already given you this to watch…so be it..it is a very helpful clip.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Dphlhmt ... e=youtu.be
But, I keep asking myself something and that is, why does this matter? We are here to learn there is no self and no doership and all that matters is what can be found in Actual Experience and what thought (which is AE) says about that is just a story that doesn't matter. And this hand is not "my hand" or even a hand but just colour and sensations. But what I don't understand, even though I can see it, is why it matters or is relevant that the visual sense and feeling sense are independent, not linked. And I say this not to rouse the Kay-Bad-Cop, or to stimulate debate (which we don't want), but because I believe the fact that you are asking me these questions means that they are probably in some way important, and I don't get why. Can you help me?
I explore every nook and cranny to make sure that no stone is left unturned to where the IDEA of a separate self can remain, as a means to see clearly that there is no separate self anywhere

What keeps the idea of a separate self in place is the belief in a thinker, doer, feeler and chooser. Other beliefs that back this up are the beliefs that you are in a body, or are the body, as well as the belief in time. So I explore these with people very thoroughly so that when something happens…they can recall what was investigated here at the forum, and to LOOK again to see what actually IS. You have this thread to come back to at all times and ‘find you way’ back to what IS…instead of going down the rabbit hole with thoughts/doubts/confusion/fear.

If you don’t look at the idea, for example, of the body thoroughly…the idea that something is happening to a me remains. “I am feeling scared”, “I am feeling confused”, I am feeling pain” etc. That there is a ‘me’ in a body that is feeling sensations, for example. If we don’t look at the idea of the head, the idea that thinking happens in MY head…therefore there must be a ‘me’, is another example.

We are deconstructing the idea of a separate self and this is how it is done. If it was as simple as seeing through the separate self once…then we wouldn’t need to do this…but even after investigating all this, it takes time for all of this to start to fall into place. But at least you aren’t behind the 8 ball….at least you have been shown that there is definitely no separate self…even if the idea SEEMS real at times.
I still do not expect the outward appearance of life to change (in that good and bad things will happen), except perhaps that the falling away of resistance to WHAT IS may mean that life flows more smoothly.
Did you LOOK if you could find anyone that is “resistant to WHAT IS”? There seems to still be an idea that there is a need for a separate self that can let go or hold on. Does resistance indicate that there is such an entity?

And resistance is impossible, how can what already is be resisted? It is only an appearing thought that says “I am resisting ………”. Thoughts are actual experience (AE) and either point to actual experience or thought stories. Can a sensation or thought be resisted? What is it exactly that is resisting?


And you might say….”but I am looking and when I look I see no one/ no thing but I still feel that I am a self”. We have addressed this several times.
What will change in me is my perspective. Seeing thoughts of me for what they are rather than somehow living through those thoughts. I would like to think that, as awareness, rather than Little John, I will be open to experience in all its elements and not as constricted as I now, still feel. Things will come and go (I think I'm digging myself deeper) and I will not identify with them and realise their ephemeral nature and abide in that which doesn't change. (I'm not sure my Bullshit detector is working properly, it's not easy to construct these sentences)
Where exactly is this “me” that will change? Describe this “me” to me in precise detail and describe where it is located.

How does one “live through their thoughts”? How do you get into an actual thought to live it? Is thought the catalyst for anything?

Where do you end and experience begin? There has to be a 'you' that is separate to experience to know that there is a difference. Where is this ‘you”?

How does “constricted” feel? What is it exactly that is feeling “constricted”?

And how does ‘awareness’ think exactly? What thoughts would ‘awareness’ think?
If there is no Johnself thinking…then why is there an ‘awareness’ somewhere that is thinking?

What is it exactly that is "identifying with thoughts"


I could go on asking lots more questions to what you wrote. The simple answer is -you didn’t LOOK to see who wants all of this, who is thinking this and what the actual experience is.
What will be different? Boy that's quite a big question. The sense (small sense) of me will be seen for what it is. Just a thought. Even though I know that, I hope it will be fully known in a way which isn't present yet.
Yes and when do we want it? WE WANT IT NOW! Good luck with that want. The idea of the separate self continues…it has never been any different. I am very clear that I am not the separate self, I know I am not the separate self…but I have no idea how, what you call ‘awareness’ is supposed to live! The dream and the dreamer of the dream are not two separate things. The dream is experience. You have a notion that there is the false thoughts about a Johnself who is living life…but there is another level of life lived as ‘awareness’.

Where is this 'awareness' exactly? What does it look like? Awareness isn’t a thing. So trying to be more aware is pointless.

Is the experience (ie sensation) and the awareness of the sensation two things? Is there experience AND awareness, or is experience self-aware without a separate thing which is aware?
What is missing is I suppose the ability, or confidence, or balls to fully accept what I already know.
lol…as if there is a you who is the doer, thinker or accepter of anything! Realising 'no self' happens, but there will also be periods of checking, and doubting, and rechecking, and that is all normal. This exploration is just a beginning and not an ending. There will still be beliefs and patterns that are rooted in the idea of being a separate self that will need clearing as not everything gets rewritten in one big hit...so yo-yoing happens. There is clear seeing that there is no self and in the next moment this clarity is muddied...all normal experiences. The core belief of being a separate self is seen through though; and like a rug that is beginning to unravel, there are still many knots that need undoing and there is no time frame to how long this takes. Continuing to LOOK after the realisation is very much the key.

Love, Kay
Nothing real can be threatened. Nothing unreal exists.
https://freedomalreadyis.com/

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Re: RiverRock

Postby Drumps » Tue Mar 05, 2019 6:33 pm

Hi Kay

I think the problem is staring me in the face. Everywhere I have put an asterisk *in either your comments or mine you can add the following statement.....
“Thoughts are arising that want to liberate the self, when in actual fact the self doesn’t exist in any shape or form. Therefore this is a pointless exercise. And thoughts are arising that want liberated thoughts when thoughts belong to no one, can’t be controlled or liberated and just come and go.”

But, I keep asking myself something * and that is, why does this matter*? We are here to learn there is no self and no doership and all that matters is what can be found in Actual Experience and what thought (which is AE) says about that is just a story that doesn't matter. And this hand is not "my hand" or even a hand but just colour and sensations. But what I don't understand *, even though I can see it, is why it matters or is relevant that the visual sense and feeling sense are independent, not linked. And I say this not to rouse the Kay-Bad-Cop, or to stimulate debate (which we don't want), but because I believe the fact that you are asking me these questions means that they are probably in some way important, and I don't get why. Can you help me?*
I explore every nook and cranny to make sure that no stone is left unturned to where the IDEA of a separate self can remain, as a means to see clearly that there is no separate self anywhere *

What keeps the idea of a separate self in place is the belief in a thinker, doer, feeler and chooser*. Other beliefs that back this up are the beliefs that you are in a body, or are the body, as well as the belief in time. So I explore these with people very thoroughly so that when something happens…they can recall what was investigated here at the forum, and to LOOK again to see what actually IS. You have this thread to come back to at all times and ‘find you way’ back to what IS…instead of going down the rabbit hole with thoughts/doubts/confusion/fear.

If you don’t look at the idea, for example, of the body thoroughly…the idea that something is happening to a me remains. “I am feeling scared”, “I am feeling confused”, I am feeling pain” etc. That there is a ‘me’ in a body that is feeling sensations, for example. If we don’t look at the idea of the head, the idea that thinking happens in MY head…therefore there must be a ‘me’, is another example.

We are deconstructing the idea of a separate self and this is how it is done. If it was as simple as seeing through the separate self once…then we wouldn’t need to do this…but even after investigating all this, it takes time for all of this to start to fall into place. But at least you aren’t behind the 8 ball….at least you have been shown that there is definitely no separate self…even if the idea SEEMS real at times.
I
still do not expect the outward appearance of life to change (in that good and bad things will happen), except perhaps that the falling away of resistance to WHAT IS *may mean that life flows more smoothly.
Did you LOOK if you could find anyone that is “resistant to WHAT IS”? There seems to still be an idea that there is a need for a separate self that can let go or hold on*. Does resistance indicate that there is such an entity*?

And resistance is impossible, how can what already is be resisted*? It is only an appearing thought that says “I am resisting ………”. Thoughts are actual experience (AE) and either point to actual experience or thought stories. Can a sensation or thought be resisted*? What is it exactly that is resisting *?

And you might say….”but I am looking and when I look I see no one/ no thing but I still feel that I am a self”*. We have addressed this several times.
What will change in me is my perspective*. Seeing thoughts of me for what they are *rather than somehow living through those thoughts. I would like to think that, as awareness*, rather than Little John, I will be open to experience *in all its elements and not as constricted as I now, still feel*. Things will come and go (I think I'm digging myself deeper) and I will not identify with them *and realise their ephemeral nature and abide *in that which doesn't change. (I'm not sure my Bullshit detector is working properly, it's not easy to construct these sentences)
Where exactly is this “me” *that will change? Describe this “me” to me in precise detail and describe where it is located*.

How does one “live through their thoughts”*? How do you get into an actual thought to live it*? Is thought the catalyst for anything?

Where do you end and experience begin*? There has to be a 'you' that is separate to experience to know that there is a difference**
. Where is this ‘you”?

How does “constricted” feel? What is it exactly that is feeling “constricted”?

And how does ‘awareness’ think exactly*? What thoughts would ‘awareness’ think?*
If there is no Johnself thinking…then why is there an ‘awareness’ somewhere that is thinking*?

What is it exactly that is "identifying with thoughts"*

I could go on asking lots more questions to what you wrote. The simple answer is -you didn’t LOOK to see who wants all of this, who is thinking this and what the actual experience is.**
What will be different? Boy that's quite a big question. The sense (small sense) of me will be seen *for what it is. Just a thought. Even though I know that*, I hope it will be fully known *in a way which isn't present yet.
Yes and when do we want it? WE WANT IT NOW! Good luck with that want. The idea of the separate self continues…*it has never been any different. I am very clear that I am not the separate self, I know I am not the separate self…but I have no idea how, what you call ‘awareness’ is supposed to live*! The dream and the dreamer of the dream are not two separate things. The dream is experience. You have a notion that there is the false thoughts about a Johnself who is living life**…but there is another level of life lived as ‘awareness’.

Where is this 'awareness' exactly? What does it look like? Awareness isn’t a thing. So trying to be more aware is pointless*.

Is the experience (ie sensation) and the awareness of the sensation two things? Is there experience AND awareness, or is experience self-aware without a separate thing which is aware?
What is missing is I suppose the ability, or confidence, or balls to fully accept *what I already know.
lol…as if there is a you who is the doer*, thinker or accepter of anything! Realising 'no self' happens, but there will also be periods of checking, and doubting, and rechecking, and that is all normal. This exploration is just a beginning and not an ending. There will still be beliefs and patterns that are rooted in the idea of being a separate self that will need clearing as not everything gets rewritten in one big hit...so yo-yoing happens. There is clear seeing that there is no self and in the next moment this clarity is muddied...all normal experiences. The core belief of being a separate self is seen through though; and like a rug that is beginning to unravel, there are still many knots that need undoing and there is no time frame to how long this takes. Continuing to LOOK after the realisation is very much the key.
So I guess what I am trying to say is that perhaps the fundamental problem in this unit is that it is trying to liberate the self. It pains me to say that because that's a novices problem and I'm not a beginner. But the patterns keep cropping up again and again. Like our discussion on how thought draws us in..... What draws what in? And why does it matter? Thought just "IS" like anything else. Worrying about why thought draws you in is the sign of someone who cares about a non existent self and wants to make it better, more knowledgeable, more free.

Oh dear. Do you agree with my assessment? I know I can't think my way around, or out of, this. It's about looking, and then looking more. Maybe I need to do more.

And you have to tell me if we reach a point where you have told me enough and then it's just about me letting it sinking in and surrendering to it. You refer to the thread as a reference point. Should I just spend more time with it?

I am in your hands.

(We haven't done time)

Love, John

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Re: RiverRock

Postby forgetmenot » Wed Mar 06, 2019 12:57 am

Good morning John,
So I guess what I am trying to say is that perhaps the fundamental problem in this unit is that it is trying to liberate the self. It pains me to say that because that's a novices problem and I'm not a beginner. But the patterns keep cropping up again and again. Like our discussion on how thought draws us in..... What draws what in? And why does it matter? Thought just "IS" like anything else. Worrying about why thought draws you in is the sign of someone who cares about a non existent self and wants to make it better, more knowledgeable, more free.
How can it be a “sign of someone who cares about a non existent self”? Where is this non existent self that cares?

The trick is just to become the observer of all thoughts and when you find yourself engaging with thought, just disengage and become the observer again. And yes…I can see the paradox…there is no non existent self and yet a non existent self seems to need to do stuff to see they don’t exist! Funny stuff! I have no idea and I don’t care why this happens…it simply does. I just observe it all and don't question why anything is anymore. Why implies reason...there is no reason for things happen...they just do.
Oh dear. Do you agree with my assessment? I know I can't think my way around, or out of, this. It's about looking, and then looking more. Maybe I need to do more.
When you have LOOKED to see if you can find a separate self in any shape or form or that is doing something….have you found one…ever? If not, then you have already seen there is no separate self! The expectation that there should be or has to be more to it than that (because of the simplicity of it) hinders the fact that you have already seen! You have reported that you have had some shifts as your perception has shifted….but the expectation that there should be more doesn’t consider this to be enough and is looking for something to confirm that seeing has happened.
And you have to tell me if we reach a point where you have told me enough and then it's just about me letting it sinking in and surrendering to it. You refer to the thread as a reference point. Should I just spend more time with it?
No…just be aware that what you wrote above are simply thoughts saying you haven’t reached the finish line. Thoughts know nothing. There is no finish line to get to. You are already what you are seeking and you always have been, it’s just thought that doesn’t know this! You (not John) neither believe or disbelieve thought because thought is not what thought says it is.

You (not John) are self-aware and you don’t need thought or anything to tell you that you ARE. As soon as experience/THIS has been labelled it becomes divided. It becomes divided into 6 main categories: - sound AND smell AND thought AND colour AND taste AND sensation. If you take away the AND it is soundsmellthoughtcolourtastesensation which denotes that there is no division. However, the ‘thinking mind’ still sees even that as separate words pointing to experience having 6 different forms.
So let’s replace soundsmellthoughtcolourtastesensation with just X.
X = experience/THIS exactly as it is.

Okay, let’s move onto time.

There is a general assumption that there is linear time that started (if started at all) somewhere very far in the past and advances to the distant future. The present moment (now) is considered to be a very small fragment of time, or an event that is moving forward on this linear time, coming from the past and advancing to the future.

But is there an experience that the ’now’ is moving along the line of time?
Any experience of one ‘moment’ giving way to the next?
Any actual experience of one event following another?

How fast is the ‘present moment’ actually moving?

Just look at 'this moment', can you find a point where it began?

How long does the ‘now’ last?

Where does the ‘now’ start, and where does it end?

When does the ‘now’ exactly become the 'past'?

What is the ‘past’ in actual experience?

So is there actual experience of ‘time’ or thoughts about ‘time’?


Love, Kay
Nothing real can be threatened. Nothing unreal exists.
https://freedomalreadyis.com/

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Re: RiverRock

Postby Drumps » Wed Mar 06, 2019 6:41 pm

Dear Kay,

Thank you for your post which I found very interesting. The first section which was not so much questions or exercises but I really found seemed to strike a chord with me. And your pointing is, as usual, very wise and helpful. And the exercise on time has already got me going. I am going to ruminate on your post over the rest of today and come back to you tomorrow.

Love, John

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Re: RiverRock

Postby Drumps » Thu Mar 07, 2019 6:55 pm

Hi Kay,

Thanks again for your post. I have read and reread the comments you made in the first half of your message and find them very helpful, and comforting and good to go back to when I'm having my little doubts. I won't respond to them at all in detail but rest assured that the point has been well received and is appreciated.

As you say, moving on to time. These questions somewhat blew my mind and, weirdly, I had never looked at time from this perspective before. Which is strange because I am someone who is normally into those kind of things. Anyway these days I am putting all my fancy theories out to dry and just focusing on your questions and exercises and responding based on my actual experience.
But is there an experience that the ’now’ is moving along the line of time?
Any experience of one ‘moment’ giving way to the next?
Any actual experience of one event following another?
No there is no experience of now moving along the line of time. Or one moment giving way to the next, or one following the other. Frankly that's just not the way it works. My experience is that I have never gone anywhere either in space or time. I am not moving anywhere "through" time. What I really am is not aging. My sense is more that things are arising and falling, or passing over, me (Spoiler alert: "Riverrock" ;-))

How fast is the ‘present moment’ actually moving?
The present moment isn't moving at all. Where ccould it move to?
Just look at 'this moment', can you find a point where it began?
Hahaha. Yes, right at that spot, there! All there is is the present moment. So when would that start and finish. Like I said, I don't think the present moment is going anywhere, it's just that things are arising and falling away in it.
How long does the ‘now’ last?
It doesn't last any length of time. It doesn't start and it doesn't finish.
Where does the ‘now’ start, and where does it end?
Ditto. This is quite cool. These are not pre-prepared answers from me but the way you have structured the questions is a really good way of approaching time.
When does the ‘now’ exactly become the 'past'?
Now never "becomes" the past. There is just now.
What is the ‘past’ in actual experience?
The past in actual experience is nothing more than, thought, now. Same with the future.
So is there actual experience of ‘time’ or thoughts about ‘time’?
No there is just thoughts about time. And in some ways I think you could say thought IS time.

Thinking about these is great fun, really. But I liked something you said in your last post about not knowing the answer to something and not caring about the fact you didn't know. I could take a leaf out of that book more. And, much as I have enjoyed answering your questions, the bottom line is we don't understand time, or space, or consciousness, and never will. But that doesn't take away from the wonder of them, and the joy in playing mind games with them.

And when I say time I don't mean the thing most people think time is - which is a linear path that we all move along with one moment leading into the next. But the simple majesty of an ever present now within which energy, or something can dance. No-one understands it - there I said it. And its OK that we don't "understand" it :). I think the only way to approach it is without thought and then you can truly see that you are not moving "through" time.

Love, John

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Re: RiverRock

Postby forgetmenot » Fri Mar 08, 2019 5:43 am

Hello John,
But is there an experience that the ’now’ is moving along the line of time?
Any experience of one ‘moment’ giving way to the next?
Any actual experience of one event following another?
My sense is more that things are arising and falling, or passing over, me (Spoiler alert: "Riverrock" ;-))
For there to be “things arising and falling, or pass over” means that there is a ‘you’ in some form and other things in other forms. This points to separation.

Do things rise from awareness? Where are things and awareness, if you don't name, or put labels on anything?
Regardless of whether thought calls this "multiple things", or "awareness", or "experience", the most important thing to check is whether there is any border between "knowing" and "known".
When does the ‘now’ exactly become the 'past'?
Now never "becomes" the past. There is just now.
What does ‘here and now’ actually point to? Does it point to a location and time or does it point to experience (THIS) that is always here now and is the ‘herenow’?


Okay let's look at the body and the past!

Look into the mirror throughout the day. Body image appears... notice that all that's really there are some colours, and a thought-story saying 'these colours are my body'

When you return to the mirror each time, consider whether these 'body colours' have ever appeared before.

Has this body image + story ever appeared before - or is this the only time you have ever been aware of these *exact* colours and this exact story about the body?

Can you find any previous appearances of the body? Where are they? If not how can it be known that the body has appeared before?

Is the appearance just appearing 'now' with only a thought-story claiming you've seen this body before?

Do that for today and report back what you find.


Love, Kay
Nothing real can be threatened. Nothing unreal exists.
https://freedomalreadyis.com/

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Re: RiverRock

Postby Drumps » Sat Mar 09, 2019 6:11 pm

Hi Kay,
Do things rise from awareness?...the most important thing to check is whether there is any border between "knowing" and "known".
Yes of course. There aren't things and awareness. And the knowing and known are the same. Need to remember that. No separation or things in things. Just THIS.
What does ‘here and now’ actually point to? Does it point to a location and time or does it point to experience (THIS) that is always here now and is the ‘herenow’?
Here and now doesn't point to a location because it points to all there is. And how can all there is have a location?
Has this body image + story ever appeared before - or is this the only time you have ever been aware of these *exact* colours and this exact story about the body?
Interesting. NO this body image has not appeared in this form before. And it is different each time I see it. I had never really thought much about that before. Subtle changes in appearance, light and positioning. Never the same, I think, because I am basing that statement on my "memory" which we know is just a story, and not reliable.
Can you find any previous appearances of the body? Where are they? If not how can it be known that the body has appeared before?
It can't be known that the body image has appeared before without relying on thoughts in now. So whether or not this is a "new" body image is not really the point. It is the only body image. Which of course is not a body at all. Just a landscape of colours.
Is the appearance just appearing 'now' with only a thought-story claiming you've seen this body before?
As we know there is just now, which is full and complete. When looking at the image in the mirror, thought tells stories of a body which is mine, and I have seen before. But all of my thoughts about a previous vision of this body are younger and this supports the thought of MY body growing old(er). But that is definitely just a story. Because I know that what I am doesn't change, and if the images that I am seeing throughout the day are (as thought tells me they are) varied and different images, then what I'm looking at can't be me. Just, as we say, colour, which thought weaves a story around which is centred on my story and my history. Which is a bit funny because what I am looking at now is all there is and only now, and not or never me, and doesn't have a history at all. It's just now.
Do that for today and report back what you find.
I will keep trying this and let you know how it develops.

Sorry about no communication yesterday. I'm afraid a few beers after work, just trumped liberation on this occasion.

Love, John

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Re: RiverRock

Postby forgetmenot » Sun Mar 10, 2019 3:44 am

Hey John,
Has this body image + story ever appeared before - or is this the only time you have ever been aware of these *exact* colours and this exact story about the body?
Interesting. NO this body image has not appeared in this form before. And it is different each time I see it. I had never really thought much about that before. Subtle changes in appearance, light and positioning. Never the same, I think, because I am basing that statement on my "memory" which we know is just a story, and not reliable.
Yes…the idea of memory…it works its wonder in keeping the idea of there being a separate self who wore these clothes the other day and who shaved this face this morning and so on!
Is the appearance just appearing 'now' with only a thought-story claiming you've seen this body before?
As we know there is just now, which is full and complete. When looking at the image in the mirror, thought tells stories of a body which is mine, and I have seen before. But all of my thoughts about a previous vision of this body are younger and this supports the thought of MY body growing old(er).
So in a dream, which is oldest, a mountain or a baby?

Past and memory go hand-in-hand as almost everybody believes that a memory thought is referring to something that has happened; that a memory thought is a different thought than a non-memory thought.

Please don’t go to thought explanation, but just let a memory be there, and look at it.

What is memory exactly?
What is the memory ‘made of’?

What is the exact difference between a ‘general’ thought and a ‘memory’ thought?

WHEN does the memory actually appear?
How is it known EXACTLY that a ‘memory’ thought refers to something that has happened?

Then, look at a thought about the future.
What is the future thought ‘made of’?

WHEN does the future thought appear?
What is the exact difference between a ‘general’ thought and a ‘future’ thought?
How is it known EXACTLY that a ‘future’ thought refers to something that will happen?

Then let’s compare a thought about past and a thought about the future.
What is the EXACT difference between the thoughts about past and future?
If there is difference, how that difference is known exactly?


Look at what is actually going on and not what thoughts say… but what actually is.

Love, Kay
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https://freedomalreadyis.com/

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Re: RiverRock

Postby Drumps » Sun Mar 10, 2019 11:21 am

Hi Kay,
So in a dream, which is oldest, a mountain or a baby?
:) :) :)
What is memory exactly?
What is the memory ‘made of’?
Memory is a stored bank of actual previous happenings which are kept in a part of our brain which we have access to to help us understand and navigate the present and plan for the future. Just kidding.

Memory is made of thought, nothing else. And memory is thought, now.

We think it represents truth but even a cursory examination of these thoughts will show that they are sketchy, unreliable and riddled with distortion and fabrication.
What is the exact difference between a ‘general’ thought and a ‘memory’ thought?
There isn't any difference at all. Memory thoughts, like all thoughts, are all over the place, arise by themselves and disappear by themselves and have little or no rational structure. Memory thoughts can include:
- What we think actually happened in the past.
- What we think should have happened. What we should have said, should have done etc. Movies playing with us as the star but director's cut re-running the whole story with us "doing the right thing".
- What could have happened/might have happened, if fate had taken this or that turn.
- Just random hazy thoughts and images loosely based on things we think happened in the past.
- Flashes of random memory, often from far in the "past" and often very lucid which jump up for no reason. Smell for some reason can be a trigger for these.

And all of the above often saturated with meaning which seem to support the idea of a separate self. But all of it just a thought story arising now.
WHEN does the memory actually appear?
How is it known EXACTLY that a ‘memory’ thought refers to something that has happened?
Memory thoughts appear NOW.
It cannot be known that they refer to actual events in the past. All that is known is thoughts arising now. And now doesn't need memory, or past, to happen. Now is complete on its own.

I was sitting in my garden watching a small bird eating something (insects, worms?) in the grass. For a little while. And then all of a sudden it flew up and into the tree foliage and couldn't be seen. What is left of the bird? The answer is nothing. Now there is thought of a bird. But thought can't bring the bird back, or even ratify that it ever existed.
Then, look at a thought about the future.
What is the future thought ‘made of’? WHEN does the future thought appear?
What is the exact difference between a ‘general’ thought and a ‘future’ thought?
Future thought is made of thought :)
It is no different from memory thought or general thought at all. They are all just the same, arising on their own and falling on their own. There is no hierarchy of thoughts, or a thought "menu" showing different types of thought we can select from. It is all just AE of thought and the content of thought is completely meaningless. All thought just arises now and has no real connection with a past or a future.
How is it known EXACTLY that a ‘future’ thought refers to something that will happen?
It is not known that a future thought refers to something that will happen. This is a delusion. Things only happen now. Nothing happens in the future. Thoughts about a future and a past are what reinforce the idea of a separate self and their story along a chronological line. Johnself only exists in a false narrative of time. Many memories of Johnself (some good, some bad) and many thoughts of future which are peppered with wishes, fears, aspirations. So if Johnself has a past, a present and a future, where exactly is Johnself?
Then let’s compare a thought about past and a thought about the future.
What is the EXACT difference between the thoughts about past and future?
If there is difference, how that difference is known exactly?
I think we've covered that. No difference at all. All thought.

Love, John


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