Unveiling

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Bananafish
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Re: Unveiling

Postby Bananafish » Tue Dec 18, 2018 10:29 am

Beautifully described, BlakeBlue. :). Thank you so much, it made me smile ...



Basically I have no particular questions or pointers for now.


I would recommend that you let that understanding unfold by itself
and see what comes up. Your posting daily helps both of us to track
the changes and the sticking points, so please do so.



And please feel free to request for the final questions that
are supposed to be answered at the end of the dialogue here.
Of course, that doesn’t mean we’re done and there’s no more to
investigate, but I feel the questions are well made for
making clear what is to be looked at further.



Warmly,



Bananafish

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BlakeBlue
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Re: Unveiling

Postby BlakeBlue » Wed Dec 19, 2018 12:17 am

Greetings Bananafish :),

I would recommend that you let that understanding unfold by itself
and see what comes up. Your posting daily helps both of us to track
the changes and the sticking points, so please do so.

I like the idea of daily posting. So allow me to describe the present.

Upon first inspection: there is a stinginess of the eyes, but then I can find no-one with eyes, then no 'eyes', and no 'stinginess'. There is hands writing, but then I can find no writer, no 'hands' writing, and no 'writing'. There is a voice thinking, but when I search, can find no thinker, no 'voice', and no 'thinking'. There is a chest breathing, but can find no breather, no 'chest' and no 'breathing'. There is a heart beating, but I can find no-one with a heart, no 'heart' or no 'beating'. There is a body tingling, but I find no-one with a body, then no 'body' and no 'tingling'. There is traffic in the distance, but I find no listener. There is a smell in the kitchen, but find no-one who smells. There is a tension in the forehead, but no-one with a forehead, and no 'tension'.

I feel the more I explore, the quieter the heart, the softer the eyes, the calmer the hands, the lesser the thoughts and the tension.

I've got a question however: what about the concept of no concept? And how does that concept dissolve?

When you look for a car key that’s supposed to be on the sofa and
you don’t find it anywhere on the sofa, the understanding that there is no key is not intellectual, right?

I agree, yet I feel when no car key is found, it sets in motion another wave of happenings, in this case it creates a thought, which contradictory, in me at least, is an image / thought of no key. Did you ever see an image of no key? If there is no key, shouldn't there be no image? Yet why do I still 'see' it? When I then explore this no image, I find it's an illusion, but in a way, this too becomes an image. In the case of not finding any 'hands' writing it indeed is not intellectual, yet it creates another wave, a thought, a picture of no hands...

Where does this end? Does it need to end? Or could it be that these happenings are interrelated, infinitely and endlessly going on, following and triggering each other? Should they be stopped? Should their origin be traced? Can you expect the sea to become still? To trace the drop of water that set it all in motion? Or is it its infinite, restless nature to never be still: for with the mounting of one wave, another goes down?


Image


(Image: Dave Sandford).

And what with the searcher, the watcher? What lies beyond? How to go there?

Good morning to you :),
BlakeBlue

Bananafish
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Re: Unveiling

Postby Bananafish » Wed Dec 19, 2018 11:41 am

Hi BlakeBlue!


what about the concept of no concept? And how does that concept dissolve?


Without the belief in concepts, concepts are totally ok. They even don't
have to "dissolve." Just like the stories that are entertaining while not being believed
to be real.


Where does this end? Does it need to end? Or could it be that these happenings are interrelated, infinitely and endlessly going on, following and triggering each other? Should they be stopped? Should their origin be traced? Can you expect the sea to become still? To trace the drop of water that set it all in motion? Or is it its infinite, restless nature to never be still: for with the mounting of one wave, another goes down?

And what with the searcher, the watcher? What lies beyond? How to go there?


BlakeBlue, what do you see in front of you, right now?



Warmly,



Bananafish

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BlakeBlue
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Re: Unveiling

Postby BlakeBlue » Wed Dec 19, 2018 12:16 pm

Hi Bananafish,

Without the belief in concepts, concepts are totally ok. They even don't
have to "dissolve." Just like the stories that are entertaining while not being believed
to be real.

Understood.

BlakeBlue, what do you see in front of you, right now?

I'm seeing a dark, empty office, divided with a glass wall that looks out on a lighted hallway and more offices. Some lit, others dark, like this one. I see a lighted computer screen, and stuff scattered around.

Greetings,
BlakeBlue

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Re: Unveiling

Postby Bananafish » Wed Dec 19, 2018 10:06 pm

Good morning, BlakeBlue. :)


I'm seeing a dark, empty office, divided with a glass wall that looks out on a lighted hallway and more offices. Some lit, others dark, like this one. I see a lighted computer screen, and stuff scattered around.


Is there anything hidden in anything you see, hear, smell, sense here and now?
If so, what would it be?


Do they have to be changed, discovered, thought about in any way?



Warm regards,



Bananafish

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BlakeBlue
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Re: Unveiling

Postby BlakeBlue » Fri Dec 21, 2018 10:02 pm

Hi Bananafish,

Is there anything hidden in anything you see, hear, smell, sense here and now?
If so, what would it be?

No.

Do they have to be changed, discovered, thought about in any way?

No. I see it is a belief.


Kind regards,
BlakeBlue

Bananafish
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Re: Unveiling

Postby Bananafish » Sat Dec 22, 2018 12:12 pm

Hi BlakeBlue. :)



What is your feeling now?
Is anything new popping up?



Warmly,



Bananafish

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BlakeBlue
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Re: Unveiling

Postby BlakeBlue » Mon Dec 24, 2018 11:09 pm

Hi Bananafish,

Please allow me until tomorrow to reply.

Kind regards,
BlakeBlue

Bananafish
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Re: Unveiling

Postby Bananafish » Tue Dec 25, 2018 8:58 am

Hello, BlakeBlue. :)



Of course. Please take your time.



Warmly,



Bananafish

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BlakeBlue
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Re: Unveiling

Postby BlakeBlue » Tue Dec 25, 2018 11:38 pm

Dear Bananafish,

Yesterday and today were calm days of meditation in which I could almost extract the ‘I’ from the present as a long-stretched, continuous thought, a concept, a filter, a construction, a super-imposed picture overlaying reality.


Image

(source: http://bit.ly/Letsgettoit)


Only a month ago this picture of 'I' was still very real, frightening and omni-present to me, but having learned how to look and what to look for, only to find it is not really there, the illusion is slowly crumbling, and I am 'unveiling' a calm, quiet and harmonious present.

Since I assume this part of the journey is almost coming to an end, I’d like to share my deepfelt gratitude with everyone on Liberation Unleashed - the founders who made this well-constructed, life-changing and liberating process of awareness public and freely accesible to all - words are not enough, the searchers & readers who are on the same discovery towards no-self, all the guides for their support, devotion and insightful pointing, and especially to Bananafish, who touched me deeply with his wise words, patient guidance, warm presence, and kind heart. I am grateful for having met you, and I enjoyed our journey (hoping this will not be the end).

Knowing how to look, and trusting the process to unfold further as I continue looking, I believe it is time for me to request the final questions. Will you please ask me Bananafish?

Be well,
BlakeBlue

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BlakeBlue
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Re: Unveiling

Postby BlakeBlue » Tue Dec 25, 2018 11:39 pm

Image

Bananafish
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Re: Unveiling

Postby Bananafish » Wed Dec 26, 2018 7:49 am

BlakeBlue,


I'd like to express my gratitude for your heartfelt comments in your last post. :)
Please enjoy the last bit of questions, savor them, and spend as much time as you wish with them.


Here are the questions:



1) Is there a separate entity 'self', 'me' 'I', at all, anywhere, in any way, shape or form? Was there ever?


2) Explain in detail what the illusion of separate self is, when it starts and how it works from your
own experience. Describe it fully as you see it now.


3) How does it feel to see this? What is the difference from before you started this dialogue?
Please report from the past few days.


4) What was the last bit that pushed you over, made you look?


5) Describe decision, intention, free will, choice and control. What makes things happen? How does it work?
What are you responsible for? Give examples from experience.


6) Anything to add?



Warm regards,



Bananafish

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BlakeBlue
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Re: Unveiling

Postby BlakeBlue » Thu Aug 08, 2019 10:29 am

1) Is there a separate entity 'self', 'me' 'I', at all, anywhere, in any way, shape or form? Was there ever?

No.

2) Explain in detail what the illusion of separate self is, when it starts and how it works from your own experience. Describe it fully as you see it now.

All events which make up this perceivable universe, just happen, like the symphony of happenings described in an earlier post. When your thoughts are watched closely, which make up your identity and the illusion of separate self, you find they arose out of nowhere, and that there is no solid entity at its base, but that they are singular events, happenings, which - because of conditioning, memory and their rapid succession - create the false illusion of ‘I’, the taste of I which shrouds reality like a veil.

3) How does it feel to see this? What is the difference from before you started this dialogue? Please report from the past few days.

Death was a comforting thought since childhood, because I couldn’t live with myself and my thoughts and memories, and I saw no use in living this prison of mind.

Since this process on LU - and especially the ‘catharsis’ described in question 4). - there has been a dissociation from this tormented thinking entity, the self and its history. The dissociation made me realise there is no entity to have ever lived, suffered, and no entity to kill.

Considering the nightmare I woke up from, to find calm, stability, love for life, and bliss present in all layers of my daily experience (as well as doors in my life opening as if I am riding a wave, and my surroundings remarking the change), it is a miracle - and yet, did such miracle ever really happen? Who did it happen to?

4) What was the last bit that pushed you over, made you look?

Final questions & strike of dissociation

Upon reading these final questions, and in an attempt to answer question 5 about responsibility, I recalled our Skype-session where you, Bananafish, guided me into a memory. I invoked a trauma memory, and the type of event that has been a pervasive pattern in my character’s life. As guided by you in our call, I looked for myself in the memory, as well as the other person there. Looking past the ideas, concepts and stories given to them I could find none of us there, nor could I even say what was happening in the memory. But then lightning struck…

While I was absorbed in the mental space of the memory and was consciously enquiring for the ones present, the shift happened when there was a sudden and spontaneous shift in awareness, out of the mental space of the memory, back to the ‘physical’ present. This shift was so sudden and violent, like a rip in consciousness, that there was a dissociation from the ‘memory’ which was at once experienced as this alien happening with no relation whatsoever to the present and the room the enquiry took place in. There was no person having the memory, and the memory just sat there, this alien thing, this strange beast of a thing, and ‘I’ - although I didn’t really perceived an I - was clueless of how it got there, or how it related to the present. I experienced ‘memories’, as ‘thoughts’ in the present, with no owner, no entity bridging the past to the present - like movie pictures projected out of nowhere. The concept of past (and future) blew to pieces, and the concept of a bridging ‘I’ with a history came to crumble. Thinking of LU’s method you could say I entered the present and looked for the one who was having the memory to find none - but in fact, there was no conscious thought, effort or enquiring, no-one doing the enquiry, it just happened.

(For Bananafish - I can hypothesise that, by guiding people into memories which are related to pervasive patterns in their life, like highly-charged emotional knots, the identity might unravel - like one digs out a main root of a plant which supplies the entire organism — but then again... maybe it just happens :)).

Since this was an alienating, dissociative, and scary experience and my perception of the space changed as if it was humming and trembling, I called someone who knows my story, who introduced me to this mind-business (but who has long been in a Buddhist lineage and doesn’t know LU) and the only one I can talk to about these matters, and asked: ‘Did this memory ever happen? Did my history ever happen? Did I ever exist? What if these memories are nothing but thoughts in the present?’. He warned me there was a fine line between madness and liberation. I felt misunderstood, confused and alone with what had just happened, but the experience lasted.

Confused, scared, and not being able to talk about what I experienced (not even being able to express it here on LU), I figured stripping deeper into this experience was the only way forward. So over the next few weeks, and in solitude and silence (I had three weeks of holidays which I devoted entirely to this) I just spent in my house, enquiring deeper into my existence.

Calm descended upon me when I enquired for the one who was scared, the one who was confused, the one who had just dissociated, and found these too where variations of that same I - harmless thoughts in the present with no owner. The confusion settled down, I became calm, and a blanket of bliss descended upon me as ‘I’ was amidst the symphony of happenings.

Inside and out - Plane of happening

Next, I followed your advice to swap the enquiry around, from ‘me’ and ‘inside’ (the realm of dreams, thoughts, body and memories), to ‘others’ and ‘outside world’. Because if I can not even find myself, other than a string of thoughts in the present, how could I ever perceive other? How would others and outside world exist and get their meaning?

I followed your guidance from a Skype call where you asked me to explore Bananafish who I was talking to on the screen, and the phone that lay on the table. During our call, I realised that, when you limit your awareness, they were mental constructs, concepts, but that all you can really say is that they are happenings - colourless, tasteless, formless (and harmless). While I touched this insight in our call, it was somehow still more of thought than an experience, and I didn’t entirely ‘get’ it. As I repeated the exercise in the wake of the dissociation, and I explored the brick wall before me, I found that at the basis of the idea of ‘wall’, was a primary thought, very subtly, and before entirely unnoticed by me, of ‘I’ and other - ’the wall that I perceive’, and that the wall gets its meaning only in relation to this primary ‘I’ thought.

So upon deep investigation, I experience some sorts of nexus of ‘I’, a body of ‘I’, a spool, or a perceiving centre, which spins out a universe of thoughts like a web of ‘meaning’, while in fact you could say of illusion, of dream. While the realm of memories (and dreams) is - as I experienced in the flash of insight - made up of fairly gross movements in mind which are easy to detect when you know how to, (in the waking state) the plane of ‘present’ it continuously spins out is much more subtle and yet still a reflection of that same identity. So I experience this spool spins out the entire universe of perceivables in a continuous movement of mind: thought, dream, waking state, other, ‘I’ - everything that can be perceived.

This realisation made me feel weightless: my awareness dispersed from the stressed dichotomy of ‘inside’ and ‘out’ to a broad plane of happenings, which has lifted the weight and stress of my direct experience, providing an experience of flow, because this knot of duality - ‘mine’, and ‘not-mine’, ‘inside’ and ‘out’, ‘what I can control’, ‘what I can not control, but what might control me’ - concentrated a lot of stress with fear and anger as continuous protective mechanisms. Some thoughts still drag me into identification - especially when it is related to strong likes and dislikes - but since the insight in December, and devoting all my spare time and attention to this, it became a habit (like you promised Bananafish) to go out of the identification fairly quickly without still having to ask the question of ‘look for the thinker’ but kind of ‘feeling’ how to to draw out of the thoughts to the plane against which all happens.

But I still wonder…

Perceiving centre

Having discovered this nexus, this body, this centre, which I can almost ‘feel’ like some formless entity which underlies and foregoes all perceivables, yet is without substance - I try to meditate upon it. Because for example, when you look for the ‘walker’, the ‘doer’ and the reply is ‘there is none’ there is a slight assumption of ‘I’ attached to this ‘none’, - just like there is a subtle entity in ‘the wall that I perceive’ - which makes it ’the none that I perceive’. How can an ‘I’ perceive ‘none’? Who or what is this centre from which everything gets its meaning, shape, colour and form?

It seems to be some sly, slippery variation of that same I, which I can not get beyond, and I can not really explain other than experiencing some kind of a glass ceiling. Probably the issue is exactly that ‘I’ want to get beyond, and when I drop this idea because I have this tendency to wanting to understand and grasp, I am happy amongst the symphony of happenings. (But I still wonder.. :))

5) Describe decision, intention, free will, choice and control. What makes things happen? How does it work?

What are you responsible for? Give examples from experience.

I experience that at the basis of even this core ‘I’ - which is the most basic happening underlying all other happenings and perception - lies nothing. Just like fish jump from the sea, and leaves fall from the sky, it happens. With no cause or meaning. So I can not say ‘how things are happening’, only that they do.

6) Anything to add?

I see that all struggle is in the realm of thought, and only a variation of that same ‘I’, but I experience a struggle in expressing myself, relating to others, and doing stuff I used to love.

Since receiving the final questions it took me ages to respond to these final questions, and I started, stopped and rewrote this reply dozens of time, because I can not find even the person who dissociated, or who underwent the entire LU process - even the dissociation seems like nothing but a thought in the present. How, if you are able to limit your awareness to this storyless centre where you experience no chronology, and no person, no meaning, can you even say this realisation happened? To who did it happen? Why share anything? How do you continue to be personal in relationships, when you experience you are not? And in general (and a contradictive question, since there is no doer): why still do anything - while I used to love writing for example, I start, but quickly go back to silence and just watching myself, because what is the use? I can see maybe these are still straws of resistance, and some residue of an ‘I’ trying to control, but they are persistent, and some advice would be appreciated.

I found this to be the most joyuous and wonderful ride with ‘results’ unimaginable when I signed up that inconspicuous November day, but I figured maybe it’s time to crash that gate… :) I’d like to break the silence to connect and relate to others who understand.

Thank you.

Thanks again to all of Liberation Unleashed for this phenomenal, mind-blowing experience, selflessly given to all who seek - how can I can ever express my gratitude for giving life?

And to Bananafish - while I have been silent for half a year, you have been closest all along - through your pointers, support, patience and guidance.

Bananafish
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Location: Japan
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Re: Unveiling

Postby Bananafish » Fri Aug 09, 2019 1:07 am

Hi BlakeBlue. :)

Very glad that you came back.
A will send you a private message later.

Warm regards,

Bananafish


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