‘No doer of the deed is found...’

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Seamist
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Re: ‘No doer of the deed is found...’

Postby Seamist » Fri Feb 15, 2019 1:09 pm

So it is! Ok

Imagine holding sensation in the right hand and thought in the left hand.
Does thought, on the one hand, and sensation, on the other, know about each other?
Is there a link between the two?

2.Imagine sensation and thought are resting on either side of a pair of scales. When sensation is looked at it gets heavier. When thought is looked at it gets heavier.
Is it possible to look at both thought and sensation at the same time to balance the scales?


xx

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River1
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Re: ‘No doer of the deed is found...’

Postby River1 » Fri Feb 15, 2019 10:14 pm

It seems that each can be affected by the other - thoughts can be influenced by sensation, sensation can be influenced by thought. However, they do not know about each other - sensation cannot 'know' thought, thought cannot 'know' about sensation. Neither has the capacity for knowing. But it seems they are linked, in that they are parts of the same experience. But that is an idea....that they are part of the same experience.....thought weaves them together.

I find it difficult to look at them both equally at the same time, to balance the scales - althought I can have an overall sense of this ‘balance’, when I tune in closely, at a very fine level, I find the one or the other is always more prominent.

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Seamist
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Re: ‘No doer of the deed is found...’

Postby Seamist » Sat Feb 16, 2019 9:59 am

Good looking, well done.
Moving on now to explore time and memory...
NEXT There is a general assumption that there is linear time that started (if started at all) somewhere very far in the past and advances to the distant future. The present moment (now) is considered to be a very small fragment of time, or an event that is moving forward on a linear line, coming from the past and advancing to the future.
But is there an experience of the ’now’ moving along the line of time?
Any experience of one ‘moment’ giving way to the next?
Is there any actual or direct experience of one event following another?
How fast is the ‘present moment’ actually moving?
Just look at 'this moment', can you find a point where it began?
long does the ‘now’ last?
Where does the ‘now’ start, and where does it end?
When does the ‘now’ exactly become the 'past'?
What is the ‘past’ in actual experience?
So is there actual experience of ‘time’ or thoughts about ‘time’?

xx

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River1
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Re: ‘No doer of the deed is found...’

Postby River1 » Sat Feb 16, 2019 2:42 pm

There is no 'thing' that can be defined as 'this moment'. 'Now' has no boundaries, no beginning or end. And therefore 'now' never becomes 'past' in anything more than thought. There is no sequence of events, only a continuous flow of experience. Time is a concept that is imposed on a flow of experience.
I can't experience 'time' - only experience, and thought.

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Seamist
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Re: ‘No doer of the deed is found...’

Postby Seamist » Sun Feb 17, 2019 10:18 am

Great!
Almost everybody believes that a memory thought is referring to something that has happened. That a memory thought is a different thought than a non-memory thought.
Please don’t go to thought explanations, but just let a memory be there, and look at it. Look at what is actually going on and not what thoughts say - but what actually is.
What is memory exactly?
What is the memory ‘made of’?
WHEN does the memory appear?
What is the exact difference between a ‘general’ thought and a ‘memory’ thought?
How is it known EXACTLY that a ‘memory’ thought refers to something that has happened?
Then, look at a thought about the future.
What is the future thought ‘made of’?
WHEN does the future thought appear?
What is the exact difference between a ‘general’ thought and a ‘future’ thought?
How is it known EXACTLY that a ‘future’ thought refers to something that will happen?
Then let’s compare a thought about past and a thought about the future.
What is the EXACT difference between the thoughts about past and future?
If there is difference and how is that difference is known exactly?

xx

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River1
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Re: ‘No doer of the deed is found...’

Postby River1 » Sun Feb 17, 2019 9:49 pm

Memory is images, mental impressions, plus further thoughts that makes it 'something that happened to me'. In itself, a memory thought is no different to a general thought - only the belief that says it refers to a past experience makesit different. I don't know that it refers to something that actually happened - only further thought weaves a story with a sense of self and time. It is just a thought, arisen on the basis of conditions. Memory can arise, appear at any time, just like general thoughts I don't control them.
A future thought is overlayed with the belief that says 'I am going to', an intention that 'I will', which is itself a thought. In itself a thought about the future is just a thought. It arises at any time.
A past thought and a future thought are no different in essence - only the further thoughts that compound them into stories that say 'this happened' or 'this is going to happen'.

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Seamist
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Re: ‘No doer of the deed is found...’

Postby Seamist » Mon Feb 18, 2019 6:21 pm

In itself, a memory thought is no different to a general thought
just so! Great noticing!

Find a comfortable place to sit or lie.
Take in a few deep breaths to settle the dust and then relax for a bit.

Spend only 30 to 60 seconds on each component of this exercise.
Bring your awareness to your entire body - sense it fully, head to toe.
Run your hands down over your torso. Feel the solidity of it.
Now bring your awareness to your feet. Again, feel them. Move them a bit.
Then bring your awareness to your hands. Open and close them.
Bring your awareness to your face - all of it. Touch it with your hand.
Now point your index finger to where "insert name" is located.
Touch the exact location of "insert name".

Answer these questions:

Were you able to find and feel "insert name" in a direct way like the other parts of your body?
Where is it?
What did you find? Something? Anything? Nothing?
What sensations did you feel in your body that identified "insert name” (If any).

Tell me what you experienced and found, by way of direct experience.


xx

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River1
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Re: ‘No doer of the deed is found...’

Postby River1 » Mon Feb 18, 2019 9:24 pm

Without over-thinking it, I firstly put my hand to my chest. That felt too small. Then my awareness spread outward, and I tried to be aware of the last point in which I could feel sensation, but there was no fixed boundary. I then became aware of what I could hear - the sound of my mum downstairs, the distant cars. I asked, ‘Is ‘Sara’ out there, at the furthest point of what I can hear? Is that the boundary?’ Then thoughts of people I know came to mind - they were part of my awareness too, even if miles away. I let go of an idea that my self was the boundary of what I could sense.
I noticed how what I was aware of with my sense was constanly changing. I noticed the want to try to find ‘Sara’ with that flux, and that it was like trying to grab a handful of water. I could not find a thing, ‘Sara’, with any of the senses, that was not changing.
I then dropped in the question again, ‘where is Sara?’, and what followed was a real sense of the continous flow of experience.
‘Sara’ is just the story of my experience.

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Seamist
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Re: ‘No doer of the deed is found...’

Postby Seamist » Tue Feb 19, 2019 11:15 am

That's really lovely, Sara
I especially like the water analogy - it works so well!
and
‘Sara’ is just the story of my experience
- exactly. Lovely again.
Were you surprised to notice that?

Similarly ...
Thought points to the feet being ‘down there’, so presumably you are above your feet. Where are you?
Sit quietly, take in a few deep breaths and then close your eyes.
Locate where you feel yourself to be. Locate yourself vertically in the body, horizontally to the left or right, and depth, how far in. Feel how big you are, where you reside. Then point with a finger to ‘you’. Open your eyes, where is your finger pointing?

xx

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River1
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Re: ‘No doer of the deed is found...’

Postby River1 » Tue Feb 19, 2019 9:05 pm

It feels good to notice this, a sense of ease and brightness.

My initial response to finding where 'I' am situated, is around the heart. However, when I investigate further, I find only sensations here, and thoughts/images about it. I can't reduce the sensations down to find the essence, the core of 'me' in the heart space. 'I' am not the sensations, or the awareness.
It is interesting to notice that my sense of self is mostly associated with the heart space.

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Seamist
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Re: ‘No doer of the deed is found...’

Postby Seamist » Tue Feb 19, 2019 9:13 pm

It feels good to notice this, a sense of ease and brightness
aw! lovely
It is interesting to notice that my sense of self is mostly associated with the heart space.
is this an idea? a thought? or based on direct experience?

xx

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River1
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Re: ‘No doer of the deed is found...’

Postby River1 » Wed Feb 20, 2019 10:41 am

This is a thought based on what I found doing the last exercise.

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Seamist
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Re: ‘No doer of the deed is found...’

Postby Seamist » Wed Feb 20, 2019 11:22 am

OK.
Can you actually find "a sense of self"?

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River1
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Re: ‘No doer of the deed is found...’

Postby River1 » Wed Feb 20, 2019 5:50 pm

No, I can't find a 'sense of self' in direct experience - it is an idea overlaid on the flow of my experience.

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Seamist
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Re: ‘No doer of the deed is found...’

Postby Seamist » Thu Feb 21, 2019 10:08 am

Good Morning, Sara,
I can't find a 'sense of self' in direct experience - it is an idea overlaid on the flow of my experience.
good

Let’s say that you have lost your keys and you swear that you left them in your coat. You go to look and check all the pockets - the keys are not there. You swear they must be as that was the last place you remember them. You have a vivid memory of putting them there after you left the house. But when you check they are not there. At this point you can keep believing that the keys are in your pocket, or you can admit you were mistaken. This is just like that. You may see clearly that the self is an illusion but still feel a sense of self - just like the keys. But feeling something to be true and seeing that it is or is not is different. This is why we may find ourselves coming back to your expectations at the start and at the end.
Now, I’d like to ask you to explore this SENSE of self very-very thoroughly. Not by thinking about it, but by FEELING it.
Keep the focus of attention on the sense of self and inquire:-
Does the sense of self have a location?
Does the sense of self have a shape or a size?
Does the sense of self say or communicate anything?
If the answer is yes, how does the sense do this exactly?
Does the sense of self have any characteristics or attributes?
What is the sense of self ‘made of’? An image? Sound? Taste? Smell? Sensation? Thought?

xx


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