Searching for the socks I never owned

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Jadzia
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Re: Searching for the socks I never owned

Postby Jadzia » Thu Dec 20, 2018 4:15 pm

Ok, I see.

There is the absolute, the Nothing/All - the ocean.
There is the relative, Life as Bonnie or Jadzia, as tree or squirrel - the waves.

What does one identify with? The ocean or the idea of being a separate wave apart from the ocean?
(No wave is ever apart from the ocean, but is ocean, but let us put this aside for a moment.)

Life is experience. Experience happens.
Does the absolute make experience fake or unreal or nothing?
No.
Something called pain happens, something called brutality happens.

So if everything goes on as before why this work here, why finding out about not being the controller, the thinker ect?
Why the need to recognize that everything is concept, what the nature of thoughts is?
What changes?
One stops identifying. One accepts the as well as – something is real/not real, concept/not concept.

Does that mean one sits at the dentist and the pain isn’t felt, aka an illusion? Well, what wouldn’t work would be telling oneself “This is not happening, this is not happening….”, right? ;-)
What happens is the judgment of the situation falls away and there is no identification, no making it personal. There is just a sensation, which can be labeled.
So there is not nothing. Ther e is experience.
therefore it can just be dismissed as nothing, but can it really? Because we still live in a world that doesnt see this way, so would it be reported etc etc.
Guess, you can answer this yourself now.

I hope this helps to clear the issue for you. If not go on asking. We will find a way through the maze for you.

Love,
Jadzia

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bonniewonder
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Re: Searching for the socks I never owned

Postby bonniewonder » Fri Dec 21, 2018 8:11 am

Hello,

Thank you, I feel that is clearer. I think this is going back to my expectation that things will change but of course the experiences dont change just my identification with them.
So experience would continue and for example the incident would be reported but there would be no 'I' in the situation, how could this happen to me? why me? etc. It was just experience not happening to an individual wave but within the ocean.
This is my interpretation anyway.

Thanks,

Bonnie

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Jadzia
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Re: Searching for the socks I never owned

Postby Jadzia » Fri Dec 21, 2018 8:20 am

Yes. This is it. Life goes on. NO miraculous changes.
So experience would continue and for example the incident would be reported but there would be no 'I' in the situation, how could this happen to me? why me? etc. It was just experience not happening to an individual wave but within the ocean.
No blame, no guilt, no feeling of not being whole, dirty, no questions like why me - life happens. Waves roll up and dissolve again.

Since you are in the forum, did you find something changed, subtle changes, bigger ones, whatever?

Love,
Jadzia

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bonniewonder
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Re: Searching for the socks I never owned

Postby bonniewonder » Fri Dec 21, 2018 12:31 pm

Hello,

Thats an interesting question,I would say definitely!
I think about it all the time, most situations I try and view it through LU and challenge emotions if I feel offended or my thoughts have taken over I become aware that they are thoughts and I dont have to buy into them, I can observe them rather than be in them.
I have no desire to read any self help books anymore.
I think life feels lighter this is difficult to explain but things dont feel so on top of me, things are more fun and not so stressful. I let things go and dont fester on things.
I dont feel I'm there yet but I feel im going in the right direction from what I feel in Actual experience.

Thanks,

Bonnie

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Jadzia
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Re: Searching for the socks I never owned

Postby Jadzia » Fri Dec 21, 2018 2:36 pm

I dont feel I'm there yet but I feel im going in the right direction from what I feel in Actual experience.
This sounds good. It is what happens when the identification starts to loosen.

Here are a few questions:
Has it been clearly seen that there is no separate individual (“I/me”), and never has been?
Has it been clearly seen that there has never been a separate individual that could control or own life or anything?
Is there any chooser or decider of any kind?
Is there a thinker of thought?

Look carefully and answer. If you have questions or there are difficulties just ask.

Love,
Jadzia

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bonniewonder
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Re: Searching for the socks I never owned

Postby bonniewonder » Sun Dec 23, 2018 9:27 pm

Hello,

Has it been clearly seen that there is no separate individual (“I/me”), and never has been?
Yes I can see that there is no one behind the scenes running the show, that life is experience and I/me has nothing to do with it as it is an illusion. I understand the concept of life as one that there is no seperation but I think it might take a bit of time to sink in. I see that if there is no self its impossible to be seperate from everything else.

Has it been clearly seen that there has never been a separate individual that could control or own life or anything?
Yes I can see there is no me, it only exists in thought. Im starting to see more and more that there is no control its just life happening. But I have to admit this is scary for me, my whole body goes tense when I think of this so I know I have more work to do in this area. I have spent all my life thinking Im in control making choices/decisions and now I know I was never doing that and never will be.

Is there any chooser or decider of any kind?
No, there is just experience happening when it happens, again if I listen to my thoughts I'm holding all the cards I'm the master of my own destiny etc etc. but it always goes back to there is no I, therefore who makes the choice or the decision as I only exists in thought and thought cant DO anything. (thought has a very big ego)!!

Is there a thinker of thought?
No, thoughts happen, I cant control them, they are random, repetative based on past thought what thought thinks about thought. I do not generate them, they have no connection whatsoever with actual experience other than to commentate on it.

I may not be able to message alot for the next week as I am going home for Christmas.

Happy holidays and speak soon.

Bonnie

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Jadzia
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Re: Searching for the socks I never owned

Postby Jadzia » Mon Dec 24, 2018 8:48 am

I understand the concept of life as one that there is no seperation but I think it might take a bit of time to sink in. I see that if there is no self its impossible to be seperate from everything else.
The first step seeing that there is no separate self running the show is the easiest, all the rest will take time for sinking in and for it to become experience. And there is no hurry, once the first coin dropped the rest will unravel in it's own time.
But I have to admit this is scary for me, my whole body goes tense when I think of this so I know I have more work to do in this area. I have spent all my life thinking Im in control making choices/decisions and now I know I was never doing that and never will be.
You could sit with this like with all other fear or resistance.
Thinking of no control, notice the body tension and just allowing it, not avoiding it, not fixing it. Take good breaths and just let it do it’s natural course. Just notice thoughts telling its story. And breathing.
Emotions can only go to one point, then they do release. What they need is loving attention.
Look out for a connection between physical feeling and thought, it is usually assumed that there is one, but can one found in direct experience?
(thought has a very big ego)!!
Oh yes, thought tells an amazing story about it’s so amazing powers. ;-)
Is there a thinker of thought?
No, thoughts happen, I cant control them, they are random, repetative based on past thought what thought thinks about thought. I do not generate them, they have no connection whatsoever with actual experience other than to commentate on it.
Beautiful answer.

Here are two more questions for you, and take your time, answer whenever family and celebrating gives you time.
Is there a self in the body somewhere? Does it have a certain location, or feelings associated with it, or any other attributes?
Is there a self that is inside the body, perceiving a world that is outside?

May your family and you have a lovely time!

Love,
Jadzia

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bonniewonder
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Re: Searching for the socks I never owned

Postby bonniewonder » Wed Jan 02, 2019 7:42 am

Hello Jadzia,

I hope you had an enjoyable Christmas and Happy new year.

I tried over the Christmas break to observe my thoughts as I knew it would be much more challenging being out of my routine and seeing friends and family which can generate alot of thought.
I could really see that thoughts play a big part in heightening emotion. I tried to stay with my actual experience and that really helped as I could see what my thoughts were 'saying' An example was when I was leaving, in my AE I could feel a physical sensation which I labelled sadness. But then after a whole host of thoughts got involved, 'it might be the last time you see your dad' its not good to be away from your family' etc etc. Then when I observed the thoughts and focussed on the AE the emotion disappeared apart from the physical sensation.

Is there a self in the body somewhere? Does it have a certain location, or feelings associated with it, or any other attributes?
No, it cannot be located only in thought, it is a fabrication of thought. If it does not exist there cannot be feelings or attributes associated.
Is there a self that is inside the body, perceiving a world that is outside?
No there are the senses which perceive the world, seeing hearing etc I guess this perception is different depending on where you are. you dont see what I see, I dont mean because of past conditioning or memory just more physical surroundings. There is no I experiencing or perceiving, there is just experiencing.

Thanks,

Bonnie

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Jadzia
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Re: Searching for the socks I never owned

Postby Jadzia » Wed Jan 02, 2019 8:44 am

Thank you, I had a good and quiet time.
I could really see that thoughts play a big part in heightening emotion. I tried to stay with my actual experience and that really helped as I could see what my thoughts were 'saying' An example was when I was leaving, in my AE I could feel a physical sensation which I labelled sadness. But then after a whole host of thoughts got involved, 'it might be the last time you see your dad' its not good to be away from your family' etc etc. Then when I observed the thoughts and focussed on the AE the emotion disappeared apart from the physical sensation.
Family is always a good test. There are so many stories and concepts, beliefs and ideas involved. ;-)
Thoughts are storyteller and throw out one concept after the other. That is fine, a good story is fun and a concept can be helpful to learn or to explain something.
As you’ve seen it becomes less sticky once one recognizes a story for a story and a concept for a concept. That is all there is needed, the stories can roll on and concepts can be used.
Is there a self in the body somewhere? Does it have a certain location, or feelings associated with it, or any other attributes?
No, it cannot be located only in thought, it is a fabrication of thought. If it does not exist there cannot be feelings or attributes associated.
Is there a self that is inside the body, perceiving a world that is outside?
No there are the senses which perceive the world, seeing hearing etc I guess this perception is different depending on where you are. you dont see what I see, I dont mean because of past conditioning or memory just more physical surroundings. There is no I experiencing or perceiving, there is just experiencing.
Lovely answers.
The senses which perceive the world – is for example the heard/noise and the hearing separate or one?

Is there any confusion at all or anything you would like to address?
What further insights are happening?
What changes?
What stays the same?
How does it feel to have no story?

Love,
Jadzia

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bonniewonder
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Re: Searching for the socks I never owned

Postby bonniewonder » Fri Jan 04, 2019 11:23 am

Hello,

The senses which perceive the world – is for example the heard/noise and the hearing separate or one?

As there is no seperation, the hearing and the heard noise are one. I undestand this concept but it still seems a little bit abstract to me at the moment, but I hope my understanding of it will deepen over time.

Is there any confusion at all or anything you would like to address?
I feel like I 'get' it now I am still trying to sit with the fear of relinquishing control and I think it comes down to letting go and having faith that life will unfold as it should, that it will happen regardless and the illusion of a me controlling things wont change it. I think this is definitely the most difficult part but the most significant as the more it drops away the freer I feel.
I also sometimes find choice hard, I can see there is no me making the choice, despite thought suggesting otherwise but why is the choice made in the first place? Life just happening? But why does life happen in one way and not another? I guess there is no answer to that as its just experience, neither good nor bad.


What further insights are happening?
I have noticed my thoughts have changed. They rarely go into the past and I no longer do the replaying things in my head, or if I do I am aware of it. My thoughts now seem to be more practical, everyday things that need to be done. I do get sucked back in but just having the awareness is a wonderful thing. I have noticed old repetitive thoughts coming up time and time again and I stop and say what is happening in AE and often it is the complete opposite to what my thoughts are 'telling' me!
I feel like I am less in my head.

What changes?
Awareness. Its looking at life from a completely different perspective. Im glad there is no me, as it was a burden. I know it will take time as I can see some thoughts and beliefs are so deeply ingrained. I could see this especially with my family, feelings and thoughts resurfacing that I had as a child, but I was grateful that I could see it; whereas before I would have bought into it.

What stays the same?
At first I thought I would have a lightening bolt moment and life would instantly be different but nothing changes. Life continues as it is, only my perspective changes that there is no 'I' pulling the strings. My thoughts are just a mildly, sometimes very annoying commentator on what is but I try and listen less and less.

How does it feel to have no story?
There is still a story, but thats all it is just a story. Its an anecdote I tell about a woman.

Thanks,

Bonnie

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Jadzia
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Re: Searching for the socks I never owned

Postby Jadzia » Fri Jan 04, 2019 2:45 pm

As there is no seperation, the hearing and the heard noise are one. I undestand this concept but it still seems a little bit abstract to me at the moment, but I hope my understanding of it will deepen over time.
Just take one noise you hear right now, and allow yourself to relax. You will "see".
I feel like I 'get' it now I am still trying to sit with the fear of relinquishing control and I think it comes down to letting go and having faith that life will unfold as it should, that it will happen regardless and the illusion of a me controlling things wont change it. I think this is definitely the most difficult part but the most significant as the more it drops away the freer I feel.
We wait for a bang and then we will know we know. ;-) And what do we find? It is a quiet thing, just a tiny little switch in the overview.

Do you know the 3D pictures? There is one which on first glance you see little pieces of cheese, when you relax the eyes, especially the background of the eyes, the focus seems to shift and you see a little mouse eating cheese.
One can switch to and fro, the pieces of cheese – the mouse eating cheese.
Just a little shift.
Is one focus better than the other? No, or?
When seeing the pieces the mouse is there too, when seeing the mouse all the pieces of cheese are there too – at same time, same stuff.
Life just happening? But why does life happen in one way and not another? I guess there is no answer to that as its just experience, neither good nor bad.
A lot stays a mystery. Life happens, maybe unfolding spontaneously, maybe not.
It is intellect which wants to know – thoughts habitually asking and trying to understand”.
I have noticed my thoughts have changed. They rarely go into the past and I no longer do the replaying things in my head, or if I do I am aware of it. My thoughts now seem to be more practical, everyday things that need to be done.
Isn’t this wonderful? So much less thinking needed.

I
have noticed old repetitive thoughts coming up time and time again and I stop and say what is happening in AE and often it is the complete opposite to what my thoughts are 'telling' me!
This is part of the unraveling, just notice and acknowledge them, they tell their part of the story and it is fine that way.
Some thoughts, beliefs being thoughts too, are truly “deeply ingrained”. This takes, it can take years until everything is noticed. In the mean time one enjoys the benefits of this cleaning up.
My thoughts are just a mildly, sometimes very annoying commentator on what is but I try and listen less and less.
Now tell me, who decides to listen or not?????? To focus on thoughts or not?????
Might this be just happening as the rest of it?

Here we are with choosing/deciding, right? Thoughts telling “I decide, I choose this and that” and this is really a strong belief. It will fade too, but might need a bit of looking, like: what is first action or thought about it?

It is beautiful to see how you gently ease yourself into this new/very old overview.

Love
Jadzia

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bonniewonder
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Re: Searching for the socks I never owned

Postby bonniewonder » Sun Jan 06, 2019 5:51 pm

Hello,

Just take one noise you hear right now, and allow yourself to relax. You will "see".
When I did this I realised straight away that it was one, it was like the exercise we did with the body where it had no edges. It was the same with the noise, all noise just becomes one.


It is intellect which wants to know – thoughts habitually asking and trying to understand”.
I think this is a constant challenge, the need to disect and have everything explained. I think maybe it takes blind faith which goes along with the letting go of control and accepting that stuff happens and thats it.

Now tell me, who decides to listen or not?????? To focus on thoughts or not?????
Might this be just happening as the rest of it?
I think this is an area where I get sucked back into thought and the idea of seperation. As it can feel that you are making that decision, I will ignore this thought, I will indulge in this one a little longer. I think it is thought commenting on thought because it is a thought telling me to ignore the thought (I hope that makes sense) It can be a challenge sometimes to identify that its just another thought rather than that seperate I making things happen.

Here we are with choosing/deciding, right? Thoughts telling “I decide, I choose this and that” and this is really a strong belief. It will fade too, but might need a bit of looking, like: what is first action or thought about it?
I find this difficult to identify, it feels SO much like the thought is first and the action is following but I can see that at the actual point of movement for example there is no thought. But you believe the thought is first as maybe youve been procrastinating about moving or doing the activity for some time.

Thanks

Bonnie

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Jadzia
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Re: Searching for the socks I never owned

Postby Jadzia » Sun Jan 06, 2019 6:29 pm

When I did this I realised straight away that it was one, it was like the exercise we did with the body where it had no edges. It was the same with the noise, all noise just becomes one.
Yes. If you like try this with all the other senses, too.
I think this is a constant challenge, the need to disect and have everything explained. I think maybe it takes blind faith which goes along with the letting go of control and accepting that stuff happens and thats it.
This is a nice story that thoughts weave.
We have learned to use intellectual thinking and searching for explanations and so on, yes, so it is a strong habit.
That it needs blind faith to let go of control is a thought story. You never ever had any control, but rather a blind faith in the learned belief that you control your life.

Never ever ignore thoughts, noticing in a gentle way is all that is needed. Observe them closely, see how they weave the story of Bonnie, of control, of being separate. Notice how it seems as if they are several voices discussing a topic. Stay on their heels, don’t let go.

Decide to get up now, right now. Do you get up, yes or no?
Repeat it.
Repeat it in the morning when still in bed.
Is the thought the impulse to get up, or is the thought just the comment and an impulse independent from thought makes you get up.
If it would be thought you would have to get up each time when a thought “Get up” appears, or?
Look what story evolves when you think about this.

Love
Jadzia

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bonniewonder
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Re: Searching for the socks I never owned

Postby bonniewonder » Mon Jan 07, 2019 3:11 pm

Hello,

When I observe my thoughts its a constant thing, its never ending, especially when thought it commenting on thought. I assume when I observe this is to prevent me from slipping back into my previous state of believing the illusion.

No, I didnt get up, and I tried it this morning too and no I didnt get up. The action is independent of the thought as it is with all of the senses. And even though I know the two things are seperate, thought definitely puts up a convincing arguement.
If I did the action with every thought I had I think life would be very stange, it would be like you were being contolled by another person really. If you said and did everything that came into your head. As most of the time thoughts are useless, reptitive and random if this was put into a physical form it would be odd.

Thanks,

Bonnie

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Jadzia
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Re: Searching for the socks I never owned

Postby Jadzia » Mon Jan 07, 2019 4:26 pm

You already noticed that thoughts tell about how wonderful they are and that they can do everything.... well, well.
You might like to listen to this:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lyu7v7nWzfo
A few words, ok some more of them, of a scientist.

If thoughts don't control movement - what does?
Just impulses arising, which sounds pretty close to life happening, or?

And yes, noticing, getting to know the nature of thoughts is pretty revealing.

Love,
Jadzia


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