Not "Getting It"

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StaffordJR
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Re: Not "Getting It"

Postby StaffordJR » Thu Mar 28, 2019 8:23 pm

""""If so, I would say that the first half is accurate in my experience, that the me comes in quickly to claim some things / actions through thoughts. Outside of those thoughts, there's just stuff going on, stuff being experienced.

On the second half of that sentence, I think I'll need some clarification or further direction"""" on if "I am not."

Hi Bayou,
I Apologize my wife tells me I'm a mouth sometimes & I get a little wordy Lol !!! Yes You're seeing this so I'm sending a little more homework & This hopefully clear up I am not & try not too be so intellectual on this just simple looking :)
Sending Peace Love Life & Laughter

Yours Truly Stafford ImageImageImage






Witness/Observer/Senses Exercises Exercises Seeing Exercise - Part I The usual belief that 'I am this body' is usually tied in with the belief that the body as a separate item is responsible or 'DOING' the senses - 'I see', 'I hear', 'I feel' etc We will begin with 'seeing' - Just that one sense on its own. Close your eyes. With eyes closed, you will now experience 'blackness'. There may be other things you can find going on, sure. If you are looking at a bright light, there may be a red glow. There may be sparkly bits or cloudy flecks appearing and disappearing - It really doesn't matter about the specifics. Just to make things simple, whatever you can see with eyes closed, I'm going to refer to it as 'black' or 'blackness' just for simplicity. 1) With eyes closed, can you confirm that what is experienced is 'blackness' as I mentioned? 2) Is there anything else in 'seeing' other than 'blackness'? 3) Can what is witnessing the blackness be found? 4) Can a pair of eyes, an 'I' / 'me', a person be found that is witnessing the blackness? Or is there just 'blackness' to be found? What do you find? Can an INHERENT SEE-ER be found? Would anything that is suggested as the see-er, be anything other than a concept/idea/thought? Seeing Exercise – Part II Let's move on to opening the eyes now. Again, address this very simply - The 'seeing' sense only for the moment. With eyes open, a world of objects appears . . . a room . . . a computer screen etc What you can specifically see isn't of interest here, and whatever it is, I am simply going to refer to it as 'what can be seen'. This might be a little more tricky, but give it some consideration. 1) With eyes open, can you confirm that what is experienced is 'what can be seen' as I mentioned? 2) Is there anything else in 'seeing' other than 'what can be seen'? 3) Can what is witnessing 'what can be seen' be found? 4) Can a pair of eyes, an 'I' / 'me', a Justin be found that is witnessing 'what can be seen'? Or is there just simply 'what can be seen' to be found? What do you find? Can an INHERENT SEE-ER be found? Would anything that is suggested as the see-er, be anything other than a concept/idea/thought?
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Bayou1
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Re: Not "Getting It"

Postby Bayou1 » Thu Mar 28, 2019 9:05 pm

Hello!

I don't mind intellectualizing stuff, either. I think that coming in and explaining the significance of what is found through the Q&A and exercises would help me in case I just breeze past something without it properly sinking in.

On the exercises:
1) With eyes closed, can you confirm that what is experienced is 'blackness' as I mentioned?
Yes
2) Is there anything else in 'seeing' other than 'blackness'?
No, just that darkness
3) Can what is witnessing the blackness be found?
No, there is just that color
4) Can a pair of eyes, an 'I' / 'me', a person be found that is witnessing the blackness? Or is there just 'blackness' to be found? What do you find? Can an INHERENT SEE-ER be found? Would anything that is suggested as the see-er, be anything other than a concept/idea/thought?
No, there was no person or eyes found in that picture. There was a sensation of there being eyes there, but that is just thought labeling that sensation as "eyes." No seer other than in thought.

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Bayou1
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Re: Not "Getting It"

Postby Bayou1 » Thu Mar 28, 2019 9:14 pm

On the "What is Seeing" exercise:
What is doing the seeing cannot be found. Looking at something and then trying to "back up" to what is doing the seeing does not turn up anything; nothing is found in sight that is doing all of this. There is just what is seen.

Hearing exercise:
Only what is heard is found in hearing. There is no person or ears found in that experience of being the thing hearing outside of just thought.

Hand on desk exercise:
Same result here. There was just one sensation of the hand touching the desk, not two (one each for the hand and the desk). Outside of thought labeling the experience as my hand on this desk, there was no me involved in this experience.

Scales / thought correlation exercise:
1) on if the sensation and thought "know" of each other or are correlated, thoughts will comment on some sensations but not all of them. There will be thoughts that that sensation is bad, that other one is good, and so on. Sensations generally appeared to be disconnected from thoughts in that they continue irrespective of what thoughts are doing. One thing that I'm not 100% sure of is sometimes, in periods of say extreme stress, there may be a lot of thoughts getting oneself all worked up, and there can be physical escalation of sensations during that. It could be a chicken-or-the-egg type of situation in that focused attention on the particular thought stream may lead to changes in physical sensations, but that is not the normal mode of operation or regular experience.
2) Focusing on both the experience / sensation and thought simultaneously isn't too easy but seems possible. Maybe not to the depth of focusing as one can manage just focusing on one or the other.


Thanks again!
Bayou

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StaffordJR
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Re: Not "Getting It"

Postby StaffordJR » Fri Mar 29, 2019 5:41 am

""""What is doing the seeing cannot be found."""
"""" There is no person """"
""""there was no me involved in this experience."""
""""" One thing that I'm not 100% sure of is sometimes, in periods of say extreme stress, there may be a lot of thoughts getting oneself all worked up, and there can be physical escalation of sensations during that. """""


OK Bayou Great Job, in your own words look & see, now if nobody is seeing there no person or no me involved in this experience then even at extreme stress no one would be there either wouldn't you say ?!? And if this makes sense nobodys there too get this !!!
Once that hit me after seeing nothing needed too be done too be !!! That's why nothing & I mean nothing in my life ever stuck, I don't know if you can relate but nothing ever stuck around in my whole life, age, education, jobs, people, extra. It's subtle but right in front of us the whole time, that's why everyone tries too be somebody & something & why people talk about the emptiness or the void ?!? Let this settle in & let me know what you see now ?!?
Wishing you always the very best talk soon ?!?
Yours Truly Stafford

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Bayou1
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Re: Not "Getting It"

Postby Bayou1 » Fri Mar 29, 2019 2:58 pm

Hi Stafford,
now if nobody is seeing there no person or no me involved in this experience then even at extreme stress no one would be there either wouldn't you say ?!?
I think you're right there, but I just can't say whether thoughts have any effect on physical sensations. Whether or not they do, I'm not controlling the thoughts; I've definitely seen that through this whole process.
nd if this makes sense nobodys there too get this !!!
This is part of the craziness of it all :) Also, this is also where so much confusion can come in. If no one is here to "get it," there's no one to go through any gate, no one to notice that they've gone through any gate, no one to notice that anything is different / has shifted as a result of seeing a lack of self... This all gets back to the questions I've had all along of "how do I know when I'm done, when it's been seen, when it's over?"

When this is over, what is the experience of life like? Is it that the body's doing its thing and life's happening, and there's no sense or belief in doing anything at all - just being along for the ride (so to speak)?

Thanks again!
Bayou

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StaffordJR
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Re: Not "Getting It"

Postby StaffordJR » Sat Mar 30, 2019 9:12 am

""""""This is part of the craziness of it all :) Also, this is also where so much confusion can come in. If no one is here to "get it," there's no one to go through any gate, no one to notice that they've gone through any gate, no one to notice that anything is different / has shifted as a result of seeing a lack of self... This all gets back to the questions I've had all along of "how do I know when I'm done, when it's been seen, when it's over?"

When this is over, what is the experience of life like? Is it that the body's doing its thing and life's happening, and there's no sense or belief in doing anything at all - just being along for the ride (so to speak)?""""""

Hi Bayou,
I So Tried Answering Earlier Apologies !!!
Yes Yes Yes & took me forever too see this, if there's nobody There How Do I Know if I'm Liberated Free Enlightened through the Gate, the Whole bit !!! First clue in Knowing You're Through is Seeing No You Doing !!! That's The Gate Less Gate so There's no Gate Except You the Empty Space, which Everything Comes & Goes Like a Gate, See?!? Nothing Changes Except The Belief in You as a Person other than that Everything Goes on The Same !!!
For me its like Life's Living & Creating a me as like an image a Phenomenon. I still have a feeling of Doing, However it's not as Real or Sticky The Seeing Everything just Happens on it's own can't be Unseen, even when I first saw it even though I Thought this can't be right, no one's There to Believe This & That's why it's Unbelievable, but i couldn't pretend I didn't See That I wasn't in Control of anything & Don't have Too Do Anything Too Be Right !!! I So so Hope this helps ?!? OK So take another Look my Friend & See What is Actually Happening are You a Separate Person Doing at ALL !?!

I Hope You're Having a Good Weekend Sending Peace Love Life & Laughter

Yours Truly Stafford
Talk soon & Thanks


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Bayou1
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Re: Not "Getting It"

Postby Bayou1 » Sat Mar 30, 2019 6:35 pm

Hi Stafford!

Thanks for your response. So, it sounds like it all boils down to seeing that there isn't a doer. That seems to be the key target in the investigation to prove to oneself that there isn't actually a self. Is that a good summary of what you said in your last post and our conversation so far?

I'm going to watch the sense of doership and how things happen in reality really closely, to further zero in on this target :)

Thanks again,
Bayou

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StaffordJR
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Re: Not "Getting It"

Postby StaffordJR » Sat Mar 30, 2019 7:33 pm

Yes Exactly Bayou I Looked around LU Files for some reading for you & Thought You might get a lot out of this !? Great Work Talk Soon & Sending Peace Love Life & Laughter Yours Truly Stafford ImageImageImage




What is sought remains hidden from the seeker by already being everything. It is so obvious and simple that the grasping of it obscures it. Never found, never knowable, being is the consummate absence that is beyond measure. Looking for being is believing it is lost. Has anything been lost, or is it simply that the looking keeps it away? Does the beloved always dance constantly just beyond our serious focus? The very intention to seek for a mythical treasure within life inevitably obscures the reality that life is already the treasure. By seeking the myth it dreams it can attain, the seeker effectively avoids that which it most fears … its absence. Liberation is like a fuse that suddenly blows, and all the little lights go out and there is only light. This is not a message about you or me or anyone getting anything. This is about the realisation that there’s nothing to get … that what has been sought has never been lost. This isn’t about seeking or not seeking; it’s beyond the concepts of Advaita and nondualism and beyond the idea of reaching states of awareness or mindfulness. There’s no goal. There’s nothing on offer. This is totally beyond knowing. This is really a description – a sharing together of a description of something that is beyond attainment, something that can’t be lost and also can’t be grasped or gained. All the time there’s separation there’s a sense of loss, there’s a sense of a feeling that there’s something that isn’t whole. And so the seeker attempts to fill that void, fill it with something – whatever. And some look to something called “enlightenment” because it is felt that enlightenment might be the thing that will fill this sense of loss; it could be the answer to some secret that we don’t quite get. And it sounds, when we read about enlightenment, as though somebody else has found the secret. But nobody’s found the secret. There’s no such thing as an enlightened person. It’s a complete misconception. But the difficulty is that being seekers, the energy of seeking pushes us into being attracted to the idea that somebody else has found something that we can find, because we grow up believing that effort brings results. So, if effort brings results, and we’ve heard of something called enlightenment or liberation, we can make the effort and then we can become liberated or enlightened … like this guy up the road we’ve heard about, or that woman that’s giving satsangs. They have got something that I want. If I go there I will learn how to get it. In the dream there’s still an idea that enlightenment or liberation is something that’s attainable. And so there are teachings that reinforce the idea that you are an individual that has choice, so now you, as an individual, can choose to self-enquire or to meditate, or whatever else, and eventually you could become enlightened. You can go all over the world and find teachings offering something to get. It is rare, however, to find an uncompromising communication that offers nothing at all to the seeker. This aliveness is nothing being everything. It’s just life happening. It’s not happening to anyone. There’s a whole set of experiences happening here and they’re happening in emptiness … they’re happening in free fall. They’re just what’s happening. All there is is life. All there is is beingness. There isn’t anyone that ever has or does not have it. There’s nobody that has life and somebody else doesn’t have life. There just is life being life. This message is so simple it totally confounds the mind. This message is too simple. Already your mind’s saying, “Yes, but come on … what about the levels of enlightenment and what about my emotional blocks, and what about my chakras, they’re not all fully open? What about my stillness – I’m not really still yet, and what about my ego? Somebody told me I still have an ego … it’s a bit reduced but it’s still there.” But all of that, all of those ideas are adopted lessons about how it should be. The ego is what’s happening. The ego is just being ego. Thinking is just being thinking. There is only being. There is just being. There’s nothing else. There’s nobody that’s running that. There’s no destiny, there’s no God, there’s no plan, there’s no script, there’s nowhere to go because there is only timeless being. Being is totally whole just being. And it is alive and fleshy and sexy and juicy and immediately this; it’s not some concept about ‘there’s no-one here’. It’s not some concept about ‘there’s nowhere to go’. It is the aliveness that’s in that body right now. There is pure beingness, pure aliveness. That’s it. End of story. Really it is simply that. So there is no-one, there is no choice. There is no choice at any level. Oneness didn’t choose to become two. There is just oneness. All there is, is oneness being alive with nobody doing it. Is anybody doing breathing? Is anybody doing blood circulation? Is anybody really doing anything? No. There is just apparent doing. Apparent life in freefall. There is no answer to life because life is its own answer. It’s happening already. It’s this. You never lost it. That’s the amazing thing about liberation. When liberation apparently happens people say, “It’s amazing because the thing I was looking for has never left me. It’s the one thing that never comes and never goes – the one constant that can’t be known or held onto.” And the one constant is being. Tony Parsons http://www.theopensecret.com/alreadybeing.html

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Bayou1
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Re: Not "Getting It"

Postby Bayou1 » Mon Apr 01, 2019 12:17 pm

Hi Stafford,

Thanks for looking for and finding that article. I'm still watching doership and decision-making. Not sure how much watching of this it will take to "convince myself" of a complete lack of control, but every time that I remember to look, I'm not controlling or deciding.

I'll keep reporting back with progress :) In the meantime, is there any other testing that I should employ?

Thank you,
Bayou

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StaffordJR
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Re: Not "Getting It"

Postby StaffordJR » Tue Apr 02, 2019 8:23 am

""""Not sure how much watching of this it will take to "convince myself" of a complete lack of control, but every time that I remember to look, I'm not controlling or deciding. """""

"""""is there any other testing that I should employ?"""""

Hi Bayou, I Hope Your Weekend was Good !!!
I Thought about This all day & I remember when I thought the same. I just somehow have too have enough faith or remember & by not being able to remember is a Big Clue ?!
I tried in believing that I don't exist the way I think !?! I still have thoughts of trying figuring how this works ?!?
I can find & give you more exercises & techniques, However that can hinder you for Years & even cause some mental hang-ups !!!
So let's make this something nobody can mistake !!! Drop ALL your knowledge expectations beliefs about what this is & answer this question Honestly !?! What do you need too do too Be in This Moment ??? Then ask why wouldn't the answer you get from the first question be good enough ?!?

I wanted too say Good Work & Please give Yourself Time Too Play & Have Fun, it's Too Easy Too get Too Serious ;~} =_= {~;

Sending Peace Love Life & Laughter
Yours Truly Stafford

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Bayou1
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Re: Not "Getting It"

Postby Bayou1 » Wed Apr 03, 2019 2:02 pm

Hi Stafford!

Thank you for your response. Sorry for the delay in response! I'm out of town with the family and the days are jam-packed this week, so I'm not in front of a computer much to respond.
I Thought about This all day & I remember when I thought the same. I just somehow have too have enough faith or remember & by not being able to remember is a Big Clue ?!
I tried in believing that I don't exist the way I think !?! I still have thoughts of trying figuring how this works ?!?
I'm glad that I'm not the only one or having abnormal hang-ups on this :) Thanks for making me feel better.
Drop ALL your knowledge expectations beliefs about what this is & answer this question Honestly !?! What do you need too do too Be in This Moment ??? Then ask why wouldn't the answer you get from the first question be good enough ?!?
Hmmm - what do I need to do to exist or be at the moment? Really - nothing. All senses work on their own. Thoughts happen on their own. Body movements and functioning run on their own. And...that's it, that's all things. It just gets down to thought content saying that something should be different.

Thank you!
Bayou

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Re: Not "Getting It"

Postby StaffordJR » Thu Apr 04, 2019 8:47 am

""""I'm glad that I'm not the only one or having abnormal hang-ups on this :) Thanks for making me feel better.""""

Hi Bayou, You're so welcome !!! No problem about getting back when you can, enjoy being with family & everything that comes about for You !!!
Life doesn't change after seeing this, for me it's Totally a Too Be or Not Too Be !?! Knowing it's a Happening without a me & Yet Here We are communicating a Journey between a Seemingly You & me !?! The Difference for me is I Know I'm a Created Mystery I can't Answer or define, but Seemingly get too Co_Create !?!
I don't want you too get any false ideas about seeing this & so I don't mind sharing what going on here with me & so glad it helps !!!
By the way what You've Seen Below is Exactly IT

""""Hmmm - what do I need to do to exist or be at the moment? Really - nothing. All senses work on their own.""""

Right here above is were Most get Stuck. Just miss the Point !!! People just can't Believe IT'S Happening without their Help ?!? This might help. We're Told We're made in His Image. We've Believed That since Sunday School Right ?!? Now can an Image make it's Sense Work, for instance What Can a Comic Book Image do for itself ??? Or a Candle Flame, dose it chose Too Light, Warm, Cook, or Burn ?!? OK I hope I haven't gone overboard & I hope you're enjoying Your Family trip get back when You can & We'll talk soon :) !!!
Sending Peace Love Life & Laughter Yours Truly Stafford

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Bayou1
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Re: Not "Getting It"

Postby Bayou1 » Fri Apr 05, 2019 3:30 am

Hi Stafford,

Thank you for your understanding on response times due to the vacation. I appreciate your last response, particularly tying it to Christianity, which is something I understand and connect with.

I'm continuing to monitor the lack of doership and feel like I need a little more time in doing that.

One line of thought that I wanted to share with you that came up today is the following (I apologize for the rambling of this, but it strings together more or less): we've gone through how 100% of experience is just the senses plus thoughts. That's it - absolutely speaking. We do nothing to make the senses work, and we don't "write" the thoughts to make them happen either. Those thoughts just pop in and out and run in a million directions on their own. So, 100% of experience is just moving on its own. A sense of being a controller, doer, director, etc. often comes about because we think that we are this body moving about in an external world, right? However, moving about in the external world is just 100% an interpretation of changes in our senses. If we aren't responsible for the sensations at a single point in time (now), how can be be responsible for changes in those sensations? I'm not making the sensations happen at this point in time, and I won't be making them happen at another point in time when those sensations may or may not be different.

Does the above come across as correct?
Thank you!
Bayou

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StaffordJR
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Re: Not "Getting It"

Postby StaffordJR » Fri Apr 05, 2019 9:59 am

”"""Does the above come across as correct?""" Hi Bayou,

Wow Yes That's Absolutely Right !!! In the Old Days they used to say Know They Self & That's what You're Finding, The Absolute Space that is Everything & Nothing & I'm Feeling Like You're Through the Gate
;~} =_= {~; However no rush We can work on This until You have No Doubts !!! I'm Pretty tired tonight & at the moment I really can't think of anymore Task for You Except Doing What You're Doing & Remember You are The Everything & Nothing You've Been Searching for & Found !!! Glad You're Enjoying Your Vacation & talk soon !!! Sending Peace Love Life & Laughter Your Truly Stafford ImageImageImage
Oh I was looking for some reading on this that has some, among other religions, some Christian background, I'm a little tired so not sure if this helps or not just let me know Good Night & Talk SoonImageImageImage Image

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Bayou1
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Re: Not "Getting It"

Postby Bayou1 » Sat Apr 06, 2019 2:19 pm

Hi Stafford!

Thanks for the reading you posted - interesting stuff. All along when I've been going through this exploration over the past couple of years, I've also been slowly reading some Christian Mysticism-type books to try to find connections. Also, I've also been trying to think through how the lack of self kind of teachings could be introduced more widely to other Christians and what would happen if I tried.

I'm continuing to just monitor the sense of doership while still keeping in mind what you said about dropping expectations around this - that it's okay if I'm not "remembering" to constantly think "there's no one doing this, I'm not moving my arm, etc." One can be through the gate while not constantly being in recognition of there not being a self, right?

Talk to you soon!
Bayou


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