LL Curtis - This is your thread

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Trinity
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Re: LL Curtis - This is your thread

Postby Trinity » Tue Mar 13, 2012 12:09 am

Not to get biblical here, but something about you saying that part about being a caterpillar, and that nothing will change; hit something.

In the story, I have died so many deaths lately to what I thought this was all about. And when you said that, it was like more pieces of that story - that fantacy - that ideal - that dream, was grieved over having to let go of too - the ideas that this would give me something magical, radical...transcendent.

So it was interesting to understand just now in a new way some these old teachings, and to see the beauty and perhaps the meaning of them in a whole new way. Being poor of spirit, the kingdom, the eye of the needle, and the meek.

Interesting to let go of everything just to get everything...(which was never lost or had anyway).

Sweet!

I hear the Zen stick.

:)

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Re: LL Curtis - This is your thread

Postby Trinity » Tue Mar 13, 2012 1:16 am

...or ever will be had or gained.


...........................


Oh! the drama!...sweet drama!

Can I run something else by you?...

This role being played right now, (seen to be not real), still gets to be played!!! Right? But now, without any reality associated with it. So it is enjoyed.

Like when I was a kid and pretended to be some character, which was quickly withdrawn from when the play was over?

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LL Curtis - This is your thread

Postby Ingen » Tue Mar 13, 2012 6:29 am

What does "I exist as no thing" mean? I sense some subtle no-thing identification...

If you say: "everything is, I am not", then there is no paradox whatsoever.
Go for a walk in nature and experience how everything is alive and interconnected. How it all works together,and nothing is excluded from it.
No perceiver, only the perceived. No center. No soul. Zero.
How does it feel to not exist AT ALL?

And if this is not your experience: in what subtle ways DO you exist?

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Re: LL Curtis - This is your thread

Postby Trinity » Tue Mar 13, 2012 2:54 pm

yea...I see what you are sensing. I am picking that up too. Especially where you say "Everything is, I am not." I can see that there is a perceiver, a center.

I just got it...An existing as non-existence. Pretty crafty! Very subtle. But blarring actually, now that you point it out. I'm so happy you saw that!

Can't wait to see what else is found!

I'll report back.

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Re: LL Curtis - This is your thread

Postby Ingen » Tue Mar 13, 2012 11:46 pm

I'm looking forward to your real life direct experience report! :)

How does it feel to not exist? As in zero?

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Re: LL Curtis - This is your thread

Postby Trinity » Wed Mar 14, 2012 3:36 pm

It is interesting you'd ask about changing names. I actually intentionally didn't use one because I considered that it might be a good thing to see all the humiliation come up that I may not have access to seeing if I had the comfort of a screen name.

On the other hand, days like yesterday, I did notice a reluctance to post, and almost posted about seeing that there was things going on that the Identitity would like to hide from you. So now I'm thinking otherwise. What do you suggest?

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Re: LL Curtis - This is your thread

Postby Trinity » Wed Mar 14, 2012 3:40 pm

...Oh, actually, I didn't word that right. Not hide from you, I meant, hide from it being in view.

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Re: LL Curtis - This is your thread

Postby Ingen » Wed Mar 14, 2012 4:10 pm

No perceiver, only the perceived. No center. No soul. Zero.
The word "No center" brought up a lot of fear and to be honest, discouragement and doubt that anything real and true has been seen. My mind is so tricky.
For me the "no soul" part has been shocking, to my big surprise. I had considered myself a solid atheist for many years. But the concept "soul" is really anchored deeply in our culture. All those religions myths and fairytales, all those sayings... It is just an idea, though. A thought. A thought that keeps you separate.

That's why I suggested you should go out in nature and feel how the center of aliveness shifts. Without belief in self/soul/center the world comes alive. (I read somewhere "Without God everything becomes holy").

And nothing is going to happen if you drop that belief. Nothing to fear, really. There has never been a separate you.

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Re: LL Curtis - This is your thread

Postby Trinity » Wed Mar 14, 2012 6:37 pm

Yea! Sorry for the length of this. I'll try to keep this as clear and as much out of story as I can. This is just really important for me to address right now.

(So, thank you!... And BTW...Thank you for sharing, I share that with you as well, I was raised Christian, but then turned into a hard core Atheist and thought I had let go of all that too! :) (more on that below!)


I went out and took your instructions with me, and had a difficult time. (And maybe not?)

What I did notice was that even though there appears...APPEARS...(and this could be not it... And I want to know for sure, so this is why I want to explain it to you), to be the experience of this empty fresh space (and space is just a word) that comes into view quite easily if I notice what is looking through the eyes. And then it "expands" or it is noticed that there is just a view, and the body is in that. (And the view isn't like it is hovering over the body or anything like that. It is just this big open view). And even though it has no qualities of any substance...it seems that I can look or inquire, and pick up "attributes" (such as - it is devoid of attrbutes), from the negation OF attributes.

So when you asked the question: Do "you" exist, when I look from this perspective, what I got was "no", that's not possible. But everything is in it...Not outside of it...Not possible to be outside of it. Even if I tried to go to the farthest reaches, the farthest reaches are in this. Ha! Everything is in it, including the body, thoughts, sensations, world, universe - anything perceived. But that is existence.

Hence, "the paradox" came. But looking back now. That may have come this "I" thought that I may have spotted yesterday, that believes that that "knowingness" was coming from its real essence. And that this may have been just another thought experienced as the flavor of real knowingness. And then the doubts start pouring in!

So this fear is here of letting go of something (not seen as identification before), because it was perceived to be my pure essence, and that this preciousness and love (soul) will be let go of...lost forever. Non-existence..a void!

And also the fear of the comfort and security of the known. At least if there is a perceiver perceiving - a center, there is still somthing here knowing ...which equals securtiy.

But yea, this morning I was like, What a wall! ..."how to see through this!?" and noticing a hessitation of even going there.


At least this is how it appears.


This is where I am at.


I hope this makes sense.

I'll try not to do this to you again!

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Re: LL Curtis - This is your thread

Postby Ingen » Wed Mar 14, 2012 7:50 pm

You are so close, Loralee!!
So this fear is here of letting go of something (not seen as identification before), because it was perceived to be my pure essence, and that this preciousness and love (soul) will be let go of...lost forever. Non-existence..a void!
There is pure essence, and preciousness, and love. It is here to stay. The one little thing you have to let go of is the word "my". (It is tainting the preciousness anyway!)
And also the fear of the comfort and security of the known. At least if there is a perceiver perceiving - a center, there is still somthing here knowing ...which equals securtiy.
Does it? Does a belief in Bat Girl who is taking care of life make you feel secure?
I hope this makes sense.
I'll try not to do this to you again!
It makes sense. You are welcome to do it again (what, anyway?) :)

Do you exist?

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Re: LL Curtis - This is your thread

Postby Trinity » Wed Mar 14, 2012 11:09 pm

Hey, I'm sure it is late there. I'm in no rush. This took me a while!


There is pure essence, and preciousness, and love. It is here to stay. The one little thing you have to let go of is the word "my".

Thank you! That just brought up so many tears! Oh man!

There is a sense right now that it's always been here. So Sweet!


It is tainting the preciousness anyway!

So true...so true!


Does it? Does a belief in Bat Girl who is taking care of life make you feel secure?

No! That is what is insecure! She can't. Wow. And all the suffering that has caused in believing that she could! (And so much compassion arising here for that!)

You are welcome to do it again (what, anyway?) :)

Drama!


Do you exist?

(I hope you don't mind. I just left my process and didn't erase it in case it would be helpful. It helps to focus this way anyway).

Do I exist?

As the character in the story? (Well...As convincing and believable as it may seem most of the time)...No! That is only a thought mixed in with flavors of sensations and images.

As a body? No. The body is in this space and experienced in same knowingness of experience that all these thoughts and flavors and images get attached to. Like a dog, somebody gave this body the name Loralee. Funny!

As a personality? No. That still is experienced and known by this.

Am I the emotions? These are all taken note of and experienced as well. Meaning - I don't think an emotion can experience itself. (I was going to say...it needs my existence in order to be.)

I wonder if a body does... (meaning, experience itself?) Hm. Interesting thought.

Anyway...

Do I exist as this de-voidness of anything? (funny name huh!...I notice if I try looking at it with something labeled before, it won’t work. I can't access it for some reason.)

So ok...
Do I exist as this emptiness?
It does not seem to have an enherent existence by means of qualities. But yet, It Is, even if the non-existent nature is seen, it can't be denied, because it can be observed. known somehow.

But maybe I do exist as that.

(???)

But what knows that That even is? Is there something even outside of This that all this is in?

(???)

If I say I exist as the knower of both existence and non-existence, isn't that still a knower - an identification?

I am in a loop.

I keep coming back to that "I".

What is that "I" independent of all the above?

(I just caught a whiff of a presence in a felt sense and then it left.)


There is an existence here, that can't be denied. Meaning...Like the computer, sounds, what I am doing, and so on.) But my mind is like (but what if this isn't real?) But even if it isn't, there is undeniably something that even knows that there is an experience of something, even if it isn't real.

But do "I" exist?

What can't be denied is that something knows this process is taking place of trying to answer the question.

I am stuck!

Something has to exist, because it Is.

I have to laugh! What a puzzle!

But is there an "I"? You asked "do you exist"? Well...Not in the ways I once thought...as a "you".

Maybe not a "you"... but a definite "I"!
(That was humor!)

But It feels like there is an "I" here. A center. That center again.

yea...I am stuck.

The best I can do right now is to say. Existence is.

What is the knower and experiencer of both existence in form and in non-form...?

It feels like at the moment, I am.

What is that "I" ?.... don't know.



God, I still feel like a Loralee trying to figure this out. Or is there?

Is that normal?

I love it!

I love this!

(I notice you don't answer these silly questions! :))))
I love that too!

(Drives my mind crazy....)

(But I love that too!)


Thanks, I needed to do it this way...it keeps my focus. (I almost erased that "my", but left it so you could see it.)

:)

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Re: LL Curtis - This is your thread

Postby Ingen » Thu Mar 15, 2012 10:24 am

I wonder if a body does experience itself? Hm. Interesting thought.
The [body/environment/all-that-is unknowable-interaction] is experiencing itself.
What is that "I" independent of all the above?
A linguistic convention.
What can't be denied is that something knows this process is taking place of trying to answer the question.
Knowing happens. The "something" is just the subject which is required by the verb "to know" in this particular sentence.
Language has its limitations. Language might have created the I in the first place.
The best I can do right now is to say. Existence is.
YES!
What is the knower and experiencer of both existence in form and in non-form…?
We are entering the realms of higher philosophy here, Existing = Knowing, I'd say. Or: Life, the universe and everything knowing itself.
God, I still feel like a Loralee trying to figure this out. Or is there?
That is what thoughts are doing, and they keep doing it forever. Trying to grasp the unknowable. Does this make Loralee real?

My job here is to help you find out if there is a separate self, which is directing life. It looks to me like you have lost this belief. There is a lot of talk about "what that means" in our post-gate groups. And, let me tell you so much: There is more than one answer :)

How does it feel to be liberated?

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Re: LL Curtis - This is your thread

Postby Trinity » Thu Mar 15, 2012 5:04 pm

That is what thoughts are doing, and they keep doing it forever. Trying to grasp the unknowable. Does this make Loralee real?

No.

Loralee was just an idea, an "I" thought, arising in the mind.


“… a thought always of what was...

coming in after what is…

trying as if to claim it -

This thief of sorts,

attempting to steal what it can never have -

own what it can never own

be,
what it can never be.”



:))

Couldn’t resist!


How does it feel to be liberated?

You had to ask! (Ha ha!)


Like Love...

Like deep gratitude for you. I honestly couldn't have asked for a more perfect guide, Ingen. Truly.

Thank you for allowing the inquiry to be liberator. Thank you for not teaching, and instead, throwing out profound little bits at just the right moment, that instead of becoming something the mind could rest on, actually allowed for a deeper fascination - a deeper inquiry to take place.

Thank you for being there night and day. Your words to me when the storm of emotions arose was like turning the light on in the darkness. Now every time emotions arise and resistance is felt, I can see the self-ing now. What a gift among many. How could I ever thank you? Really. It goes beyond that. Just profound gratitude. This has honestly been such a rich experience.



So, one last thing in answer to the question of: How does it feel?

Well...

I am noticing that there is a falling in love with the mind going on right now. Like this adoration and amusement at times for all the things it comes up with, and this understanding and compassion for its confusion.

Totally unexpected.


There is bitter-sweet sadness that this is over with you to be truthful. :)

Thank you with all my heart!

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Re: LL Curtis - This is your thread

Postby Trinity » Thu Mar 15, 2012 6:27 pm

....PS

:)

Just noticing this...

Like the boundaries that were there that separated "me" as the experiencer to what was being experienced, are softening. And there is an immediacy now - an intimacy, with whatever is arising in experience.

XX!

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Re: LL Curtis - This is your thread

Postby Ingen » Thu Mar 15, 2012 7:24 pm

It was truly a joy to travel with you, Loralee. You are being promoted from Bat Girl to Trinity ;)

What a nice poem about the self.

But we are not quite there yet. There are formalities to finish...

In order to get you into the insider group, (and I want you there!) we have some standard questions, and three other guides have to confirm that you are seeing clearly through this self business, or if they see some problems anywhere.

So, here are the questions again!

1) Is there a 'me', at all, anywhere, in any way, shape or form? Was there ever?

2) Explain in detail what the illusion of separate self is, and how it works.

3) How does it feel to see this?
 
4) How would you describe it to somebody who is very interested, but has never heard about this illusion.
 
5) What was the last bit that pushed you over, made you look?


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