who else is ready to look?

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drfunk
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Re: who else is ready to look?

Postby drfunk » Tue Mar 06, 2012 11:56 pm

So you don't need to sleep anymore?... Can I look forward to that? Just joking, hope that's ok?
YesI can see the what is and that thoughts are symbols that can point to what Is but is always and only in imagination. I
see the commentary going on and it is the long held belief in it as being me that makes it seem real but it is always and only in imagination. To be honest with you, I have been teaching my patients who get panic attacks for years to look at the difference between us sitting on a beach on a Caribbean island with water of 7 shades of blue/ green sipping delicious drinks and then looking at the I thought- both are imagination exactly the same. then I have them meditate on the feelings of panic and ask who is having the panic attacks? So this has not been a stretch for me to see that there is no personal I at all. Yes all mindstuff is fiction no problem there either. Where there is some stuck feeling is about what Is real. remember I said my body has always seemed to be real and was mistaken for the me, but when I close my eyes there is no body just sensations and memory of a body. So this makes me wonder if that is in imagination too (the body, certainly the memory of it is). Then finally, Consciousness or awareness. are you saying that it does not exist except as a concept, that awareness is not separate from things or experiences? I have definately had experiences of consciousness or awareness during so-called deep sleep where there were not any objects, body/ mind or world and yet I was perfectly aware just not conscious of objects. So then I don't want to get into a verbal dispute about the word "Self". Many so-called enlightened teachers claim there is a true Self, which they substitute other words for like Be-ing, consciousness, feeling alive awareness, God, Heart, Silence, Stillness, Kundalini Shakti, Atman/ Brahman, Peace and so on... My reason for bringing this up is that in my experience of the Present moment there is always a sense of Presence which corresponds to some of the above titles might even want to call it Grace. So this "sensation" is always there and does not change. Objects disappears in deep sleep, but I have discovered that this ?phenomenon does not. I don't mind in the slightest that there is no personal "I", I am delighted about that. So the question is...if this Presence is Real and it seems to be, is it not what I am? I do not require it to parade around and call itself I. It just seems to be the finality of experience in present moments. Am I deluding myself here. I am not saying this is my identity but it seems to be a large inclusion in what it Is that I am.
Please forgive the convention of using the word "I". maybe we could call it amness!
So your final question- to describe what is going on here, how illusion of I influences life of a human... Yes,I can see it is the belief in the thought stream having an I thought that appears to be an entity that is me, that is real. The entire thought stream is fiction, imagination. But if left unchecked habit in the belief that it is real creates all kinds of feelings of separation, in fact is separation itself. When the mind is quiet, these problems don't even exist. and now when there are thoughts the problems don't really exist either as all thoughts especially the "I" thought is seen to be imagination,completely unreal. I hope you will address the what I am question that I posed. I can now see what I am not.

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Ilona
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Re: who else is ready to look?

Postby Ilona » Wed Mar 07, 2012 12:16 am

The presence is real and unchanging. It's being ( verb), life life-ing.
The sensations, thoughts, feelings are happening. The raw perception of environment is happening and brain makes interpretations and choice. All this is what is going on no matter what thoughts say about it.

If this presence called I, it's placed in a tiny compartment and everything is looked through the lens of 'me'.
Does this aliveness need to be squeezed into frames?
Can what is be named? What happens when it's named?
Amness has no I in it. Is it true?


The presence is. There is no you.
Truth realized will set you free.
http://ilonaciunaite.com/book

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drfunk
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Re: who else is ready to look?

Postby drfunk » Wed Mar 07, 2012 12:28 am

I'm pretty much doubting everything until proven otherwise at this point. Like is the body/ world real? Remember that I
played some musical notes in the mind (imaginary of course) then played them out here on an instrument a guitar.
Same notes. I can see how the mind is fiction, but acting on that fiction I was able to produce the same notes. In fact the inspiration for them on the guitar came apparently from this fiction. So the question then becomes, although happenings in the world/ body are not on the same level of imagination as the thoughts aren't they too a form of imagination? The only thing that does not change here is Consciousness. If consciousness is a concept, what is real?

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drfunk
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Re: who else is ready to look?

Postby drfunk » Wed Mar 07, 2012 12:40 am

OK !!! we are on the same page. Verbal misundertanding. don't mind having no "I" on any level, just questioning as the Presence seems real and does not need to be called I, any name limits it. Yes, Presence Is- don't mind having no me at all! So one last question remains along this line at this point. Some of the Advaita teachers like Nisargadatta say that even the Presence goes. and Anamalai Swami who was an attendant of Ramana and delightfully enlightened told me that eventually that vibration would dissolve and only Peace remains.What say you here from your direct experience?
Thanks Ilona, I am really enjoying today with you. I hope I am not being a pain and that these are useful questions.

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Ilona
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Re: who else is ready to look?

Postby Ilona » Wed Mar 07, 2012 1:00 am

I'm enjoying All these conversations greatly. :)

What we pointing to here is only the first step. What is beyond- everyone's unfoldment/ story is unique. I can not tell you how it's here, because it's irrelevant at this point.

Look closely at what are your expectations at this time, is there something that needs to be addressed?
What is the I that you are referring to?
Truth realized will set you free.
http://ilonaciunaite.com/book

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drfunk
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Re: who else is ready to look?

Postby drfunk » Wed Mar 07, 2012 1:28 am

This is just wonderful! The I being referred to now is just a convention. I could just as easily say- conversing with you. I know the you is a convention too. Yes, I understand about this being the first step. My friend werner who lives in Tiruvannamalai meditated in a cave for 9 years until a shift occurred. He does not recommend people to do what he did. In fact he always would tell me to just Relax! He says this is just the beginning and that consciousness unfolds to infinity and it is unique for each expression. So I do not want to get ahead of myself nor do I need to. I was just following that line of thought. So looking at expectations at this point. very little that I am aware of except that I don't know if there has been a shift as everything feels the same. On the other hand my mind is pretty quiet and when thoughts happen they are seen as imagination most of the time. There is more attention to the feeling of presence than there is interest in the thought stream most of the time also. I don't know if this means anything as i don't notice any Aha moment, feeling of lightness like some people describe, no laughing, crying, great sense of relief. things are just as they are, this moment seems just fine to me. There is no sense of seeking to find some greater experience in some future (imagined moment). this is what I am noticing

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Ilona
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Re: who else is ready to look?

Postby Ilona » Wed Mar 07, 2012 8:54 am

As you say- unfolding is unique for each expression. Some have great laugh, others some energetic shift, some don't even feel it. It means nothing. Seeing through illusion is just a drop of belief. It's not a sonic boom, but just starting to see things as they are.

How is it going today?
Are you ready for the final questions?


Much love.
Truth realized will set you free.
http://ilonaciunaite.com/book

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drfunk
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Re: who else is ready to look?

Postby drfunk » Wed Mar 07, 2012 3:06 pm

Good morning!
OK, where do we go from here?
I feel very lucky. When I was I Tiru the last 10 days I stayed in an expensive hotel with AC rare for there. Each morning I would have coffee with a German man and we would talk about this topic (which is normal for any westerners in that town). But after the first day I realized this gentleman was quite Natural/ here & now so to speak. His name is Bernhard, and is a member of your forum. He suggested I go on line and do this. He was very happy when I told him that I was doing this with you. So very grateful for the way things have been working out.

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Ilona
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Re: who else is ready to look?

Postby Ilona » Wed Mar 07, 2012 4:04 pm

:) yes, bernard mentioned you and the morning coffee. So glad to be part of this and celebrate this unfoldment with many. Yes, it all feels lucky as it's effortless.


Ok, I see that you are emerging smoothly and here are the questions that I ask you to answer, in full, with honesty and just as you see it.


1) Is there a 'me', at all, anywhere, in any way, shape or form? Was there ever? 

2) Explain in detail what the illusion of separate self is, when it starts and how it works.

3) How does it feel to see this?

4) How would you describe it to somebody who has never heard about this illusion. 

5) What was the last bit that pushed you over, made you look? 


LOoking forward for answers.

Much love.
Truth realized will set you free.
http://ilonaciunaite.com/book

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drfunk
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Re: who else is ready to look?

Postby drfunk » Wed Mar 07, 2012 7:03 pm

Hi Ilona, I want to go over your questions one by one and very slowly today so I will digest them and speak only from direct experience. First I need to tell you that I woke up feeling doubt and depression even headache. Instead of getting upset, I took this as a good sign. Resistance was coming up. I need to take a good look at this, as it is the place that I need to dig. I realize now that ALL of my Teachers have been good and have realized the Truth. Each speaks in their own way (language). I am able to translate for each one now. All are really saying the same thing.I lived in Tiruvannamalai for a year in 1995. I used to hang out with Annamalai Swami daily and was able to ask him questions. His answers were profound and I was not able to understand them at the time. I found a book in Ramana ashram bookstore called "Final Teachings" by Annamalai Swami. he died a month after I left India In Nov 1995.Anyway, 3 of the chapters are just me asking him questions. i did not know that David Godman was taping the sessions. so all of this has come back to me. One thing that was asked was about Namaskar. This is the Indian practice of bowing at the feet of the Guru. Annamalai explained this this was just an opportunity to surrender. It was not really about genuflexing someone's body at another person's feet- but bowing the ego (in silence) at the feet of the real Guru- the Presence. My last Teacher is Amma, the hugging Saint. I once asked Her Who am I? her answer was there is no Michael, There is no Amma, there is only Brahman (Being). So now that this is understood, I am putting my attention (formerly known as the mind) in the Presence, quietly. It is the meaning of surrender. There is no doubt, depression or headache here. These were all from i-magination. Belief in the "i" thought as being a real entity is ending. That's all. Attention to the presence seems to be the most helpful thing as it turns out it is not doing (what the mind thinks it is- a doer), but Be-ing- what is Real, effortless, and natural. I am also watching for the mind trying to latch on to this as an identity with the "absolute". Not going to let i-magination get in the way again. This being does not need the mind, but so-called Self- Realization is for the mind only. there is no gate. The mind i-magined all the obstacles when Being was always already there. there is Nothing to attain. THIS Is IT!!!
I wil lget to each of your questions today. I need to let this settle a bit. please correct me if I am deluding myself at all. This is quite surprising, that it was under my nose the whole time!

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Ilona
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Re: who else is ready to look?

Postby Ilona » Wed Mar 07, 2012 7:15 pm

Haha, yes, right in front of our noses. It's strange that not so many people see it. And its amazing that there is this wave of waking up happening. When I saw it first I thought how we can never even think about questioning existence of I- the doer. It's just sounds insane. But hey, one look and it's seen.
It takes time to get ripe, for some it's quicker, for others it takes 40 years... It does not mean anything.

I'm so delighted to read your message. Isn't that great when words of teachers are really clear and yes, they all talk about the same!

Surrender is the direction that falling is happening.

Sending love.
Truth realized will set you free.
http://ilonaciunaite.com/book

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drfunk
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Re: who else is ready to look?

Postby drfunk » Wed Mar 07, 2012 7:24 pm

So Lovely to hear from you so quickly. We are on the same page! I am really pleased to finally comprehend what the Teachers were trying to tell me. And, i think i am able to translate that into anyone's language. Thank you so much for being there!!! I realize this is not the end, just the beginning and that all kinds of resistance may pop up. really quite pleased to be in this situation. I may need more help than before, but it seems to right tools are there...mainly that there is no individual I entity, and that it is quite OK to put attention on the Presence. That is all that is known at this time, but it seems like it might be enough.
Really, much Love is sent!

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drfunk
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Re: who else is ready to look?

Postby drfunk » Thu Mar 08, 2012 1:52 am

Hi Ilona, have not been able to get to your questions because a shit storm has come up. It is clear that the illusion has been seen thru. Now resistance is showing up. This does not upset me which surprises me, I just have to deal with it and I am not sure if I am doing it correctly. Last night i woke up twice with like nightmares. I never experience bad dreams, and today doubt wants to consume me. Only there is no me for doubt to stick to. I am finding the only place free of this stuff is in attention to the Presence. If I get lost in thought the old Who am I? works as does Is there an I?
I don't mind experiencing what these thoughts bring which is a sense of constriction. I understand these are what Ramana calls Vasanas coming up (old tendencies in the mind). I realize all this stuff needs to be cleared and let go of once and for all. I knew I would have to deal with this, but I did not expect all this to come up so suddenly and intensely. So armed with knowing there is no I and attention to the Presence I am feeling the doubt/ constriction whatever. Interested to see what happens. Please advise- just knowing that you are there is really helping me.

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Ilona
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Re: who else is ready to look?

Postby Ilona » Thu Mar 08, 2012 9:04 am

You are getting it right, the shit storm is here as deconstruction of belief system started to crumble. Looks like you entered the 'falling'. It's a process where all that does not serve you anymore, that is not true starts falling off while all that is true is falling into place. It may be intense and bumpy ride, but there is no i-driver. It just happens. So the key here is hold in to nothing. When resistance comes up check, what belief are you trying to protect? Let all that comes up be ok and choose the path of least resistance. That helps to let go of whatever goes. And beliefs fall like dominoes. Its not gonna last forever. This too shall pass..

Much love.
Truth realized will set you free.
http://ilonaciunaite.com/book

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drfunk
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Re: who else is ready to look?

Postby drfunk » Thu Mar 08, 2012 1:25 pm

Gotcha! Seems like all is well... no problem with what is going on. don't mind what is going on. Thanks for being there especially now. Can answering your questions be postponed for a few days, so that I can try to stablize here first? I don't
want this dialogue to end just yet .Understand path of least resistance. Is it OK keeping attention on the Presence, that seems to be helping alot?


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