The Road

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Ilona
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Re: The Road

Postby Ilona » Fri Apr 14, 2017 2:14 pm

Thank you very much for taking time to write down your thoughts.
The body seems to move itself and underlying there sometimes seems a subtle intent that gets the ball rolling but other times I will just spring out of my chair and march to my room and know what I'm doing until I am doing it.
:) nice! In short, we do what happens next! And we know what happens when it happens.

So what is this separate self then, what does it do, what is its function? Where is the I that runs the show?

Describe what you find in experience.

Sending love

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Re: The Road

Postby ug0ng61 » Sat Apr 15, 2017 10:15 am

So what is this separate self then, what does it do, what is its function? Where is the I that runs the show?
Describe what you find in experience.
The body does what it does, the senses process input and mind / brain does its thinking and feeling.

I don't know if there is intent … I seem to know nothing.

There is no self.

All there is is just this …

I don't know how it works.

Sometimes a thought comes which seems to have intent … "Time to get up" and I get up.

I can't observe what isn't there … I don't know what is there any more.

Happy day that had no "me" in it … things just happened. No conventional perspective seems relevant. I had a wonderful time with friends last night … coloured lights, some cider, cheesecake, cigarettes, standing in the rain, watching the moon rise. It felt like the best night of my life …

Right now I don't seem to want to push to know more than that … I'm inquisitive about how things work in life with this completely different frame of reference but today I can't see anything directly … I just feel imbued with contentment.

What next? I'm fucked if I know at the moment …. it's like I just don't need to do anything right now.

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Re: The Road

Postby Ilona » Mon Apr 17, 2017 5:32 pm

Haha, nice!
How is it going?
Anything interesting to report? What is different from before we started this conversation?

Sending love

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Re: The Road

Postby ug0ng61 » Mon Apr 17, 2017 8:26 pm

Anything interesting to report? What is different from before we started this conversation?
Just coming off four day Easter break and not feeling about not posting each day ... I had a lovely four days with no turmoil or drama.
So what has changed in this journey so far?
Well, one interesting observation is that reading the newspaper no longer pushes any buttons ... the "I" used to have an opinion about everything, rushed in to judgment without any consideration of what lie beneath stories, got upset and angry easily.
I read the paper now and I'm not a robot but there isn't this ham actor screaming to get front and centre of everything all the time.
Yesterday I went with my wife and younger teenage daughter to the biggest shopping mall in the country. Not usually my thing ("I" decided that a long time ago and rigidly held that absolute position regardless) with all the excess and crowds but it was a wonderful and playful experience. There was no rush to judge people in a way that I would in the past ("Old people getting in the way", "Mothers who shouldn't be mothers letting their kids run riot", "Arseholes with tattoos thinking they are cool", "Why is that hot girl with a dropkick like him" ... and so endlessly on) ... I enjoyed talking to people with no sense of pressure or rush about anything. It all happened as it happened ... we had a lovely lamb fattoush together, had spectacles repaired, went into random shops, talked about nothing and everything. Even exiting the zoo of a carpark and entering the stream of impatient drivers ... well, I was completely relaxed and my wife a little anxious where it is usually the other way around.

So I am experiencing less narrowness and more freedom .... I want to say "joy" but it is something else ... a hybrid of liberty, peace and elation .... it can be a "lite" touch hybrid but other times it is full blown. Yet I don't grieve if that sense tails off ... I'm a more grateful and contented person.

It doesn't mean I've had a lobotomy or that I have become a total imbecile because I know that there are still times when unbidden the ham actor starts to rehears lines and enter the stage. What I have learned is to recognise that squalling child voice for what it is without engaging in a battle with it. I observe it, recognise it and acknowledge that it is a fiction and then engage my senses ... I look at a chicken, breathe deeply and feel my belly rise, hold my hand under a cold tap, closely check out the colour of my daughters eyes ... whatever.

There is no undercurrent of anxiety or fear and yet in a sense nothing has changed .. I'm still overweight, have few original teeth left, blind in one eye and arthritic in my left knee ... and yet intangibly and underlying frame of reference has changed entirely.

Not for the first time is the answer to a question a seeming paradox ... nothing has changed / everything has changed.

I was thinking this morning about the myriad unanswered questions ... things do just to seem to happen and yet all my life the "I / ego" pretender has taken credit for everything happening. It operates like this virtual parasite that has you thinking you'd be totally poked in life without it ... one question being "How the hell does it all just work?".

I don't have to know everything but the inquisitive mind is interested.

It is early days yet and complacency would be stupid ... under pressure I have no doubt space could open for "ham" and a relapse suffered or confusion to enter. But I'm thinking also about "What now?"

If there is no real separate self that can be located anywhere then what will happen to the nature of the entity that the world knows as "me"? Will some of the traits that were tools to trammel over fear and anxiety or inadequacy lose some shine? Sarcasm might be t a low form of humour but I was quite good at it and became fond of my wittiness ... will the wittiness remain but be expressed in a more positive frame instead of disappearing altogether?

And if no separate self then how will this transform the egocentric point of reference that I've operated under my whole adult life? Will I start to lose the boundaries that once governed how I lived?

Already with sight it isn't me seeing out from this finite point and thereby defining the world in response to that perspective ... sight just is part of the experience and so no separation between see-er and seen ... there is now only seen.
Hearing is the same ... there is sound plus nothing so that expansion due to experiencing sensory stimulation as life rather than putting it all in a box marked "me". "I' am not seeing or hearing or smelling ... there just are these things.

The wily old serpent might whisper "You're done ... so no need to follow this thread any more ... you're done ... well done Ug0ng61" but I believe I probably still need to continue looking at things as I have been so far in this conversation with you Ilona.

Maybe I need some help to examine / "look" more deeply at the angles here ... to maintain momentum here ...

I'm not talking about any specific direction but guidance from you as you know the range of actions / reactions / side tracks that others have encountered in the journey.

I know what I am trying to say but perhaps losing the struggle to articulate what I mean ...

There is more I know ...

Thanking you

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Re: The Road

Postby Ilona » Mon Apr 17, 2017 11:30 pm

I was thinking this morning about the myriad unanswered questions ... things do just to seem to happen and yet all my life the "I / ego" pretender has taken credit for everything happening. It operates like this virtual parasite that has you thinking you'd be totally poked in life without it ... one question being "How the hell does it all just work?".
This made me smile, you got it.

If there is no real entity, as you say, what will happen to the entity? What can happen to a unicorn?
Was there ever an entity, I, ego, to take credit?


Sending love

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Re: The Road

Postby ug0ng61 » Tue Apr 18, 2017 1:50 am

If there is no real entity, as you say, what will happen to the entity? What can happen to a unicorn?
Was there ever an entity, I, ego, to take credit?
What will happen? That is the million dollar question Ilona and I can only speculate as I don’t have a Google earth map of the "I scape" before and after.

Semantics is a challenge because to live it he world you can't escape using the personal pronoun "I" but my response is based on there being no “I” anywhere that isn’t a fiction, a social construct, a mechanism for communicating in the world with other nobodies!

So things just happen and living is experienced through the sense ... my senses tell me what is happening.

There is this “ham I’ (rather than “I ham” hyuk hyuk) response that seems to have been with me forever that always wanted to take the credit for everything ... a big fat non existent liar.

Sometimes I have a thought about having a cup of tea but I’m starting to see that this doesn’t initiate action … it seems to simply register what is already in motion and “happening”. I will continue to chop wood and make tea ...

Driving somewhere I may consult the map to see where the best route but this is a memory function and pretty godawful at that ... I have to look several times thinking I have it nailed.
But the driving side ... I arrive is all I can say? I feel I should have a bumper sticker that says “Be aware – no driver but it is a safe no driver”.

Probably the deeply ploughed conditioning / habituation will continue but to what extent who knows?

What has gone before … this nonexistent fictional “me” taking credit for everything … an egocentric “I” unchallenged … this illusory king in absolute control and at the centre of this tiny “me” kingdom of nothing … it never was anything but a shadow … it never existed.

A unicorn is a made up thing, an idea, a thought … in the past I may has well have been a unicorn urinating rainbows.
Closing my eyes and imagining a unicorn is still a notion ... I can see it with the mind but not the eyes ...

In the eyes of the people in the world there is still this walking talking Ug0ng61 who is in his sixties, eccentric, quick witted, interesting, cantankerous, loud, short, creative …. blah blah blah … I’ve always been a fiction and no doubt each of these people has their own idiosyncratic version of me based on our shared history and dealings.

So my “living” experience is one of immediate and continuous registering of the senses … it is as if all is in a constant flux of creation / annihilation, fullness / emptiness …

Playing a part may still be an indelible part of how I interact with those people but the difference is that I don’t believe that “I” am that actor …

Looking back at the beginning of this LU thread I was really wrestling with the idea of no self … I understood it intellectually and it was attractive to me but I yearned to have that “a ha” inner realization.

There was also the fear of loss and the threatening potential for personal dissociation ... it was unfounded but I understand its presence .... apprehension of stepping off something into the dark even with eyes wide open is self-preservation.

There has been no explosion, no time standing still, no hallelujah chorus that only I can hear … just knowledge that there is nobody central there.

And nothing has been lost unless you count this background radiation noise of hamster in the mind wheel anxiety, unless you count the adolescent script of neurotic self audit that ran 24/7, unless you count the colossal feelings of the doom laden uncertainty of life and overarching responsibility to make the effing universe work for me as if I knew what the hell was good for me … what I needed.

It isn't a case of paradise lost and paradise regained ... nothing is lost but I am excited and interested to see how the journey continues … 60 odd years running this unchallenged script which has been such a barrier and yet no gate at all …

Reminds me of the cartoon I saw last week in a local magazine of a man sitting lotus outside a building labelled “Enlightenment” … another man is looking panicked with flecks of sweat flying of his face asking “Where’s the door?” and the man sitting lotus says “There is no door”.

It is like being a kid again ....

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Re: The Road

Postby Ilona » Tue Apr 18, 2017 2:18 pm

Beautiful! Sounds that a shift has really happened :) welcome home!

Can you say with a big fat YES, it's clear that the separate self, i as an entity is an illusion?
If so, are you ready for the final questions?

Much love your way

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Re: The Road

Postby ug0ng61 » Tue Apr 18, 2017 5:44 pm

To the final questions as i confirm the fattest yesses all round ...

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Re: The Road

Postby Ilona » Tue Apr 18, 2017 7:34 pm

Sweet! Here they are :)

1) Is there a separate entity 'self', 'me' 'I', at all, anywhere, in any way, shape or form? Was there ever?

2) Explain in detail what the illusion of separate self is, when it starts and how it works from your own experience. Describe it fully as you see it now.

3) How does it feel to see this? What is the difference from before you started this dialogue? Please report from the past few days.

4) What was the last bit that pushed you over, made you look?

5) Can you talk about decision, intention, free will, choice and control? What makes things happen? How does it work? What are you responsible for? Give examples from experience.

6) Anything to add?

Please answer in full, when ready.

Much love.

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Re: The Road

Postby ug0ng61 » Tue Apr 18, 2017 9:09 pm

1) Is there a separate entity 'self', 'me' 'I', at all, anywhere, in any way, shape or form? Was there ever?
Until the question was asked and I started looking I had not even questioned what had never been challenged.
Having now spent 12 days looking directly, looking everywhere I can find no separate real entity called “me” or “I” – the conclusion is that there never has been such an entity. It only existed in word and thought ... like closing my eyes and imagining a unicorn did not mean there was a unicorn anywhere.
2) Explain in detail what the illusion of separate self is, when it starts and how it works from your own experience. Describe it fully as you see it now.
The illusion of a separate self appears is a complex fiction, a matrix of notions and sub-routines creating a no-thing that has no tangible or real existence. It is a story and one lived large everywhere that starts early in life. My mother probably talked to me in the womb and the words and physical messages and cues from a very early age overlaid what I suspect at birth was pure sensory perception. The whole of human society and history seems to have this unchallenged base note that seems to be at the heart of suffering and misery of many kinds. You are told you are a boy, a good boy, a bad boy … label upon label, experience upon experience … smart, funny, stupid, lazy …. Nothing about being so it never occurs that everyone is wearing the Emperor’s new clothes. It led me to a position of isolation, fear, doubt, anguish, pain … all that damaging, life sapping horror so I couldn’t just be.
Worse than that I was responsible … it was “my” fault and it was all up to “me” to fix it like life was some kind of Rubic’s cube that always had a piece missing. The “I” was running the show and responsible for every thought and action, for every thing that happened. There was a little bloke called “me” in a control box doing it all and doing it badly but they were the cards I had been dealt.
All there is, though, is what there is right now … just awareness … not a person seeing … just seeing. Thoughts rise and fall and things occur ... the body operates …
3) How does it feel to see this? What is the difference from before you started this dialogue? Please report from the past few days.
To see it is to experience such liberation I’m too stoked to weep even ... there is no looking over the shoulder, no regret … it is really like everything is made new yet nothing has changed.

When I started on this trip I was anxious with a deep seated sense of life passing by and that I was dumb and would never master this shit … front and centre was this “I” that was alone and miserable. Compared to most of my peers I was successful … married to the same person for 31 years, good job, nice house in a nice area, a couple of kids, some cool friends, eclectic and stimulating man with wide interests … that is the outside view.
Inside I was churned up ... but now? For the last few days I have not been feeling “myself” at all … to an astonishing extent the inner chatter and self judgment has subsided and those inner churnings have just gone, baby, gone!!!! I walk, I laugh, I talk, I eat, I breath, I stroke the dog … yet there is actually no “I” there is only walking, laughing, talking, eating, breathing and dog stroking.

I feel like I was living with a permanent hangover and I am now in a state of wondrous shock ... all of what I thought of as “me” has just fallen off and I couldn’t be happier about it. Life is less complicated ... the flow just happens and that constant internal self analysis and criticism seems to have taken a hike.

I went to the movies with my wife and daughter last night "Beauty and the Beast" ... I would previously have said this sort of movie wasn't "me" ... god it was a fun experience ... ice cream, music, light, people watching ... I feel like I am actually living rather than locked in an invisible "me" prison.
4) What was the last bit that pushed you over, made you look?
There was no one straw breaking camel’s back moment. A day water blasting the paths and walls in the sun thinking nothing and just being was weirdly one of the most awesome days of my life … it was like the work I had done here had primed the pump, so to speak and within I was simply observing everything. Being with the chickens in the garden and watching them forage … no time no space, no separation … just awareness.

The way other people are seen has changed as well … no more judgment … the less of the old ham actor “me” and the happier and lighter I get. At a friend’s place the other night was such a free and joyous experience … there is nothing to do, nothing to change, nothing to control … just ride and watch, watch and ride … chop wood, drink beer.

When I committed to stop overthinking everything and do the work, just surrendered to watching what was going on was when this went into overdrive …
5) Can you talk about decision, intention, free will, choice and control? What makes things happen? How does it work? What are you responsible for? Give examples from experience.
We can but in a way I don’t know anything anymore apart from there is no decision maker, no prime mover who directs all things in my life.

I don't know the mechanics of it all as I look through this glass darkly … sensory input occurs and then something happens, or doesn’t happen ... sometimes there are thoughts happening seemingly at the same time but that is most likely a shadow of the former impulse to take credit.

What is amazing is that I'm not bothered ... this sense of rightness of lightness or real trumps all I've known in the past.

If there is no self doing anything then there is no free will as nobody to have a will, no intention because nobody to intend, no decision as no decision maker, no choice and nobody to make one.

It feels weird to read those words … I watch my fingers pecking away and words appear ... so abstract.
So somehow the questions you ask are being answered and a written response composed but just how this happens, the nuts and bolts of it all are largely a mystery now that I know there is no "person" behind them ... I expect a reframing to continually occur as I grow into this.

Sometimes I will observe an impulse for coffee and I get a coffee but that isn’t done by a little guy with an X Box controller on a couch in my head … these things just arise, they happen.

All I can say is that everything appears perfectly right as it is. Whether there is a chain of cause and effect or some esoteric meld of sense, thought hybrid goodness knows … there is just this endless flow of uninterrupted life, simultaneous creation and annihilation … I’m keen to know more.
What am I responsible for? There is no “I” so I’m responsible for nothing … just keeping out of the way and staying in this flow of being rather than mindscrew of labelling and knuckle biting.
I'll chop wood and drink beer and do right but I'm a baby again ...

I’ve moved from being a noun and reborn as a verb … go figure … there is still mystery.
6) Anything to add?
Nothing can be added or taken away but I do want to express my heartfelt gratitude to you and the community which you are part of. I told a friend of my journey here and she asked me if it was a cult and I laughed. You ask for nothing … you all are genuinely interested and committed to spreading this liberation.

I am so grateful that I came upon this site and for me after so many years of searching, the desperation of time running out, the feelings of inadequacy … in the end this has been the simplest thing.

So here I am now, “I less” and understand and know there is no separation … just oneness.

So what is next? That is all really … what is next? What is the next question?

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Re: The Road

Postby Ilona » Sat Apr 22, 2017 1:56 pm

Thank you Ian for beautiful answers and our work together.. it was a pleasure :)
Welcome home! This is only a beginning, but at least now the real work can start.
Feel free to contact me any time. And when ready, if you feel a pull, join the guides and help someone else to see this simple truth.
Much love.


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