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Rise Again

Posted: Tue Dec 27, 2016 3:09 am
by Anastacia42
What brings you to Liberation Unleashed?
I've felt a bit "clogged up" and while I have ways to "unclog" that work, Life seems to be a "lather, rinse repeat" process, so I can be drawn to new forms once in a while. A friend pointed me to your site. She's having what sounds like an awakening experience. So I took a look and found that I know many people on the Facebook page, including one person in Ilona's book. This leant credence to what is going on here. I sent FB Friend Requests to some people there and got "real people" responses, no sales pitches and everyone seemed genuinely aware and caring. I am hopeful that the people involved have not devolved into petty personal and political differences. A new community of like-minded others sounds good to me.

I suppose I should also say. . . no, wait, that is the next question. Perfect.

What are you looking for? What do you expect from this?
To deepen and ground whatever level of "awakening" I may already have touched. I realize that "applied awakening" is kind of an oxymoron, and yet the more aware and awake I am, the more I can bring awareness or truth or reality to any perceived problem or issue that shows up.

I am curious about what the questions are. I've begun reading 2 of the books. I've been a bit altered ever since. Reading as if Ilona was having the conversation with me is taking me "in."

(PS - How do you pronounce Ilona's name? Both first and last names.)

I live for connection, communication and community. This sounds like a group of hoopy froods who know where their towels are at (Adams). I'd like to join in.

Cool... the next question is approximately what I'd write next. Thank you!

What is your background in terms of seeking and inquiry?
My background of seeking and inquiry would just about require a book about my life. If I could find an editor who doesn't want me to change "being lived, and breathed and moved," to some other grammatical form, I could do some work on that, if I am still leaning that way. I have a lot of blogs and other things, although I might just start fresh again, too.

I started life with intense interest in all things spiritual, as well as things that seem to be useful personality profiling systems to use to help myself and others feel our way into our niche in life, love, career & what have you. I want to inspire people with the information and experiences I've found.

At some point, I qualified that "all things spiritual" to say *experientially* true and took out the "spiritual." I'm not that interested in mind games - and I'm not very good at them. I'm more like a non-theist, a la Sam Harris, the neuroscientist who meditates. (Harris's book, "Waking Up" is in your Recommended Reading. Love that. I've read a lot of those books, including Jed McKenna's first book.)

I've lived in an ashram in Denton Texas, married one of the meditation teachers, divorced him, quit that meditation entirely, and since the divorce (1996/7) find myself pretty particular about when and how I would marry again. I work on keeping materially afloat while I work out whatever awakening process is my life. I have a strong leaning towards living in a community of like-minded others and I'm renting in a home that approaches that vaguely right now.

I am an admin in a small Work of Byron Katie practice group. I earn my income helping others with the tools that I have learned that lasted more than a couple of years with me. I've been doing TW since 2000. A couple of years after that, I learned some meta-meditations that could possibly be similar to your Direct Questions. One of them was called, "Where is 'I'?" I do not have permission to charge money for teaching those, and the person who created them no longer teaches.

A couple of things that stayed around include breathwork (since 1985, Vivation form), The Work of Byron Katie (2000), ACIM (if I translate the god stuff a little bit, since 1985), the meditations mentioned above, Sedona Method (and a variation called Releasing), probably a couple of other things. Maybe EFT, not sure, I've been doing a little of that for a few months, so the jury is still out.

How ready are you to question your beliefs about who you are and see the truth no matter what?

Re: Rise Again

Posted: Tue Dec 27, 2016 1:54 pm
by Anastacia42
Rereading this the next day it sounds pretty pompous. I apologize for that. Answering questions can get me in a school writing voice. Kind of interesting how this sounds. Thank you.

Re: Rise Again

Posted: Tue Jan 03, 2017 12:57 pm
by Ilona
Hi Stacy,
Welcome to the forum :) glad you made it here.
we can have a chat nad see where it takes you.

thank you for intro, it gives me a little sense of where you are.
can you tell me more precisely what it is that you are looking for. what is your burning question?

sending love

[ tsiu.nait.e]

Re: Rise Again

Posted: Tue Jan 03, 2017 2:46 pm
by Anastacia42
Yes, I can try.

I have had a lot of experiences of feeling connected and feeling clear and more ... globally aware? Like feeling like the center of the universe - but not - altered, "high," etc. Many different things have triggered these experiences and I can get to some degree of that experience with some meta-meditations that are similar to your "looking" (I think - from the descriptions). Reading "Liberation Unleashed," and asking your questions along with the book starts to have an effect.

And yet, I can't say for sure that I've "woken up." How would I know that? Am I awake?

I know I'm far from always coming from that "place," and I also know that even after awakening, we aren't perfect and neither is our experience - well, not the "perfect" humans make up.

If I had to ask it just one way - it's probably "Am I awake?" Or is there more looking? Or do I always keep looking?

I'll stop there - otherwise, I'll just ramble. Thank you so much for replying. I appreciate this very much.

Re: Rise Again

Posted: Tue Jan 03, 2017 3:50 pm
by Ilona
Hm, it's not about an experience at all! Experiences come and go, all of them, high, low and in between. What we are inquiring here is this- is there an experiencer. Sometimes seeing can trigger an experience sometimes not. The shift can be so subtle and gradual that it can be noticed only when looking back. Essentially it's just a drop of belief. A core belief.
It's assumed widely that experiencer is the i.
Have a look if there is a gap between experiencer and experienced. Feel the touch of bum on the seat, is there a gap between sensation of seat and sensation of bum?

Then you ask a question questiin- is there an I? ( a separate from everything being with free will and power to control what happens and whatever else descriptions you may use here)

What happens immediately once you ask this question?

Sending love

Re: Rise Again

Posted: Tue Jan 03, 2017 4:05 pm
by Anastacia42
Tightness in my solar plexus that I understand to mean "no." No, right off the bat - and there is that "I" again.

So... tightness. Staying with that... um... Is there an "i?"

Sitting here. Repeating the question.

looking at computer monitor, looking at room

something is looking - can I say that's an "I?" I don't know.

Torn between just continuing to sit and hitting "reply" to share this

Notice tightness has softened a lot. Almost nothing there now. Notice the time, 8 am. (Just recording some of what's going on.)

Not really, not an "I" - too fluid, too changing, more ... I don't know . . . observer than experiencer or "I"

DEFINITELY no control! Sheesh. Flows in and out. Kind of all I can do is watch. Or... how do I say that?

I I I I I in every sentence. Is that forgetting? Identifying with an "I?"

I don't know if this is making any sense.

Appreciating this very much! Love, too.

Re: Rise Again

Posted: Tue Jan 03, 2017 4:30 pm
by Ilona
Good work! Yes, that's what's required in this conversation, you report form your experience, as it is, with full honesty.
You say something is looking... Ok, what if there is just looking, no something or someone doing that? No observer, but observing, no witness but witnessing, no being, but being (verb)

I is part of language. Language creates the illusion of a doer. Language says wind moves clouds, but in actuality 'clouds move' 'wind blows' are labels on something we notice- the movement is happening, wind is not the doer. Nor the cloud is a doer. Even though language says so. Same is this I- a unit of language, in every sentence. But.... What does the word I refer to? Can you sum up, what words I is pointing to in your experience.

Take your time!

Re: Rise Again

Posted: Tue Jan 03, 2017 4:38 pm
by Anastacia42
Thank you for the encouragement.

I will take some more time and go about eating breakfast and things seeing if asking

this is just falling apart - makes no sense

Much love, many things (that got typed when I meant "thanks," okay, I'm losing it!)

Re: Rise Again

Posted: Tue Jan 03, 2017 8:17 pm
by Anastacia42
Going about my day, fixed food, ate it. Was looking for this "i" part of that time.

Totally forgot, then remembered to look.

Talked to my roommate about those foreground background pictures and hoping I could find the place where I can't un-see no me

Thinking of going to see Star Wars, but would have to drive in the snow. Wonder if losing me might cause anything that makes it difficult to drive, even if temporary.

Pet the cat. Feel a little woozy, but could be blood sugar issues and caffeine withdrawal I'm working on.

Remember, forget, remember forget. It looks something like that right now.

Thank you.

Much love.

Re: Rise Again

Posted: Wed Jan 04, 2017 9:03 am
by Ilona
Thank you for reply.
You say that you wonder if loosing me anything would change. What if there is nothing to loose. If it's not there already, how can it be lost?

It's like you can imagine that a unicorn is sitting on your sofa and have fun with that image, you can have a conversation with the creature. But when you stop imagining it, what happens to the unicorn? Does it get lost and now there is empty space there? Or it was never there to start with?

So loosing me is not an option. It's not something that exist and can be lost, like your keys for example.

What gets lost is a belief that me is some entity in charge of a piece of life, separated from the whole.

look around, look everywhere like if you were looking for your keys and find that me that is supposedly here. Where is it?

Sending love

Re: Rise Again

Posted: Wed Jan 04, 2017 6:35 pm
by Anastacia42
Oh, that's cool! The unicorn analogy - thank you!

I'm still looking, although mostly forgot for most of the morning - actually, that's not true - the looking is running in the background, it just wasn't my primary focus until I described what I was doing to a friend who may be interested. Your emails help to remind you. About 8:30 am I saw that it was there and I was in a meeting until after 10 am.

Last night I saw "Rogue One," the new Star Wars story, and as I usually do, I walked out of the theater feeling euphoric, connected - that's one of the "experiences" I wondered about when you said it was not about experience. That got to me to wondering how it could not be about experience? What else is there? Thought-provoking.

Avoiding running off on a theoretical tangent about that, though. Recapturing the sense of no "i" to be "doing." Watching.

Wondering, too, I think. Cogito ergo nada! ;)

I feel like typing any more is just being a Chatty Cathy doll. I want to just shut up and look and do the day's stuff.

When i think about this "i" it's just all questions and yet, I've known for years that I'm not in charge - I guess that is different from there is no me to *be* in charge.

Thank you again.

Receiving love sent & (insert lemniscate / infinity symbol here) sending love back to you!

Re: Rise Again

Posted: Thu Jan 05, 2017 9:16 am
by Ilona
Oh yes, there is a huge difference between 'I am not in charge' and 'there is no one to be in charge'. First one is about powerlessness and lack of control. Second it about being in the flow of life, allowing, surrendering to what is.

Ok, look at this. When a kid learns that Santa is not real, that it's fiction what happens? A kid has an experience of denial/curiosity/realisation, which can hit him hard and he may cry or laugh. That's an experience. But knowing that Santa is not real is not experience, it's knowing, that knowing is here in any situation, it's no longer a question if Santa is real or not, there is knowing that it's fiction. The kid can not be fooled again and he also sees that tooth fairy and all the other imagined creatures are not real too.

So realisation is not about having a particular experience but about recognition of what is what. Then what is recognised, what is seen can not be unseen, it is always here in any situation.

People chase experiences thinking that a particular experience is needed for the life to become happy ever after, but that's delusion. So forget about experiences and look for the truth. What is actualy going on? Are you separate from life itself? Is there I to be separate? Is flow of life something that needs to be controlled and managed? Does life need you as a general manager of the universe?

In other words, do you see yourself as a fish in the ocean or an ocean with the fish in it?

Tell me, what is not just happening by itself? What do you have to do in order to be?

Sending love

Re: Rise Again

Posted: Fri Jan 06, 2017 1:14 am
by Anastacia42
Oh wow. Yes. Nothing is not happening by itself. Odd double negative but more accurate?

Thought of an organ grinder - you know, with a monkey? Or a player piano.

Sleepy. Cat woke me pretty early.

I can see this, as in think about it & kind if "sink in" and feel it.

Can't imagine how to see something without experiencing seeing or feeling a shift that arises from that different perspective.

Like the Santa example, I felt it.

Meditation, too, a relaxing "back" and "in."

Not that?

Re: Rise Again

Posted: Fri Jan 06, 2017 1:05 pm
by Anastacia42
Still here.

Yesterday I read some more of the book Liberation Unleashed to see if that helps. I'm having a lot of physical symptoms, not new ones, though, just the usual fibromyalgia, fatigue, vertigo & other pains.

Looking as often as I remember.

Have more appointments today than usual. So, i will be talking with others more. That seems to be a time when I forget to look.

I wish I could come to the intensive. I have the time, but not the money.

Thank you for your suggestions. I feel like I'm doing it wrong,. I'll keep looking.

Re: Rise Again

Posted: Fri Jan 06, 2017 2:02 pm
by Anastacia42
One of the first questions was whether I could find a gap between chair & "bum" - how British - no. I can't. I look & look and if there's a gap, it's eluding me.