Glimpsed it. Not yet living it.

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Kvist
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Re: Glimpsed it. Not yet living it.

Postby Kvist » Thu Dec 15, 2016 7:53 pm

Thank you!
Yes, lately I have considered no I is there. Who is it that considers it though, I don't know yet?

I can't pinpoint any resistance to what you write but it brought tears to my eyes. I'm not going to speculate on why but I will try to describe what followed just now. After I read it I felt something like spaciousness or attention smeared all over and then it felt something like a collapsing, of something. Or everything I attended to collected without any movement, collapsing.

I'm not sure the word smeard or the word collapsing are the right ones here but thats the closest I can get. It sounds much more dramatic in writing than it really was to me, it was subtle.

Is this something you can recognize? I may be fooling myself but it felt a bit like it was more experience than me experiencing.

I may have expectations I do not recognize, reflecting as interpretations of experiences. I hesitated to write "more experience than me experiencing" because it struck me I have read similar things before and I want to be very careful to only work on what is present in my own experience and my choice of words could be just that, an interpretation. But that is actually how I would describe it.

But now it feels like I'm sitting here writing and being me somewhere between my eyes.

Thank you!
Kvist

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Ilona
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Re: Glimpsed it. Not yet living it.

Postby Ilona » Thu Dec 15, 2016 8:12 pm

good stuff.
who is that considers?
there is no who.
who is something that language creates. we use word who to point to a subject. by the rules of language, we expect for the subject to be real something. not just a word. but who word is just a word- it assumes a doer, but the doer is too part of the language. so all this identity question is created by language itself.

try this experiment. it's very easy. you will find it on my blog here:
http://markedeternal.blogspot.co.uk/2012/05/labels.html

tell me, does labeling what is happening differently changes what is happening?
is anything lost if the word I, me, mine are not used?

sending love.

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Kvist
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Re: Glimpsed it. Not yet living it.

Postby Kvist » Thu Dec 15, 2016 11:43 pm

While doing the experiment, the second part brought about a lightness and clarity. I realized that I do not internally verbalize "I" and "Me" but a representation of those labels in the form of a fuzzy knot cramping in my imagined center. That knot or center feels sort of like anxiety and I sense it now, it tightened just now when I thought I heard my wife holler from downstairs. Felt like I became more "me" when addressed as my name.
That imagined fuzzy knot center seems artificial and arbitrarily placed. By recognizing that "knot" as a variety of a label I managed to just experience for a short while. Don't know what to do with all this or if it will prove useful in the work we do here but it feels wonderful to be able to, well let go of that knot or, yeah I ran out of words here. Or I think I got into speculation from trying to put it all in writing and, please don't let me fool myself by being clever!
Can you extract anything from my rambling?

Thank you!
Kvist

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Ilona
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Re: Glimpsed it. Not yet living it.

Postby Ilona » Fri Dec 16, 2016 8:42 am

Wonderful!
Ok, let's find that knot now and examine it. What is it made of? What is it's job? What does it want? Where is it located?
Is it like a container?
Is it in a container?
Examining it from all possible angles and write what you found.

Sending love

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Kvist
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Re: Glimpsed it. Not yet living it.

Postby Kvist » Sat Dec 17, 2016 3:23 pm

Ok. Lets just stream this real time

Sitting in my bed.
Manage to drop some labels. Experience is of what is. Even my tinnitus just is.
This is nice. The knot has not appeared yet.
Right this moment every time I write a line collapses everything into me writing.
Just realized I don't need to let it collapse. I still keep writing.
Fluctuating back and forth between center and centerless.
Somehow not completely free of center. I sense I do identify with my person more than I know. Identification of some kind by some unknown means I don't recognize yet.

Need to go. Will pick up later today.


Back.

I see my fingers on the keyboard. Feels like I am the looker. Feels like it is the view that convinces me I am the experiencer because my eyes input this from a special angle.
The knot has not revealed itself. Tired.
The tiredness has nothing to do with anything else. It's superfluous. It's disconnected. It's hovering.
I do and doing is done.
I don't choose.
Or I do choose.
Or choosing is done.
Effort to choose seems kind of like decoration.
It looks like a label for an excuse! An excuse after the fact. A smokescreen. Who is exerting effort? When probing that area it becomes foggy and I can't grasp or distinguish appearances. I'm not sure if I watch my mind or use my mind or whatever here. It's not a place. I think I started speculating instead of looking now. Though I kind of see it still. Feels like I am trying to describe a piece of music by writing words. The are not compatible and the result is always distorted.


The day after

I'm not sure what my notes from yesterday mean.
I sit and let go of center. My kids are yelling from downstairs and the knot appears even though they are not yelling my name. The pull to go downstairs seem to awaken it.
It's moving up and down from stomach to chest. I don't know its purpose. But It makes me more what seems to be aware of my individuality.

Its job seems to be to keep me located right here. It is like a fuzzy anxiety ghost spinning around inside. It's made of nothing, empty but feels massive.

No container that I can see right now.


I want to get feedback before I go on.

Thank you so much!
Kvist

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Kvist
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Re: Glimpsed it. Not yet living it.

Postby Kvist » Sat Dec 17, 2016 6:46 pm

I want to get feedback before I go on.
That sounded like I take your input for granted. I absolutely do not. I meant that I'm concerned I will loose myself in ideas if I go on by my self and don't want to risk it.

Much love!

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Ilona
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Re: Glimpsed it. Not yet living it.

Postby Ilona » Sat Dec 17, 2016 6:57 pm

Its job seems to be to keep me located right here. It is like a fuzzy anxiety ghost spinning around inside. It's made of nothing, empty but feels massive.

No container that I can see right now.
very good. so it feels like a fuzzy ghost, what if there is no ghost at all, but mind created so many stories about it and forgot that it is imagined.
if i ask you to look for Batman in your room right now? what is your response to that?
and if i ask you to look for Kvist, where is that you look for him?

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Kvist
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Re: Glimpsed it. Not yet living it.

Postby Kvist » Sat Dec 17, 2016 7:27 pm

so it feels like a fuzzy ghost, what if there is no ghost at all, but mind created so many stories about it and forgot that it is imagined.
I'm not sure how to answer that. But I can consider it.
if i ask you to look for Batman in your room right now? what is your response to that?
I already see/imagine him in the room before I look. Even though I don't expect to see him in the room.
and if i ask you to look for Kvist, where is that you look for him?
I start looking kind of from a place outside where I imagine "my self" to be. I need to step out to be able to look back at me. I imagine "me" looking back at a "me". I could just as well be batman standing in my room looking for Kvist. Oh my! This is confusing. I may need time for checking this out.
wait
I already see/imagine Kvist in the room before I look. And I expect to see him "there". ("him" there)

Much Love
Kvist

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Ilona
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Re: Glimpsed it. Not yet living it.

Postby Ilona » Sat Dec 17, 2016 11:57 pm

Keep looking till you know. It's much simpler than you think. What is here?
What is imagined?
What is the difference?

Can you see taste smell touch hear something imagined?
Try this exercise with a spoon.

Imagine you are holding a spoon. In full vivid HD detail. As good as you can. Hold that image.
Then take a spoon and experience it in actuality.
Describe both experiences in detail.

What is the difference between imagined and experienced spoon and the description of both experiences?

Describing itself is an experience too.

Describing is same as creating a story about experienced.

What is here without story?
What is that needs an identity?

Play with this
Sending love

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Kvist
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Re: Glimpsed it. Not yet living it.

Postby Kvist » Sun Dec 18, 2016 11:33 am

Imagine you are holding a spoon. In full vivid HD detail. As good as you can. Hold that image.
I close my eyes. Suddenly a spoon appears between my fingers. It's cold and heavier on one side than the other. I balance it and stroke it like and feel some heat from friction. I put in on the tip of my tongue and feel its cool surface and the wetness meet.
Then take a spoon and experience it in actuality.
I grab the spoon. I close my eyes and I feel its coolness and weight just as before but it is slightly heavier and easier to balance. Opening my eyes the spoon and my hand looks just as the imagined one but the imagined one had a black background and no representation of the room. The metallic feel on my tongue is largely the same feel as the imagined one.
What is the difference between imagined and experienced spoon and the description of both experiences?
Right now there is no difference between the experiences of the spoons, they have already become memory. I can not find any differences between the two descriptions in any significant ways.
What is here without story?
Experience only. Labels gone.
What is that needs an identity?
I can't find anything that demand the "need" to have identity. It feels like identity itself, that is my imagined self identity is a label used to distinguish and separate me from everything else. As soon as I try to drop that label it appears again as the one trying to drop the label. On the other hand all this I write now seems like psychonauting and escaping direct experience.
Back to NOW, Being present with what is, allowing everything, labels become less explicit. "More" presence seems to drop more labels. Not sure what this "presence" is, but seems like more presence is equal to less story.
I sense I am missing something big here. I will look further when I get over this migraine. But feedback would be wonderful even though I'm very unsure that I completely agree on my own answers this time.

Much love!
Kvist

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Kvist
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Re: Glimpsed it. Not yet living it.

Postby Kvist » Sun Dec 18, 2016 5:13 pm

I feel like I'm steering off course.

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Ilona
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Re: Glimpsed it. Not yet living it.

Postby Ilona » Sun Dec 18, 2016 9:04 pm

Ok, the thing is, there is no 'you' to drop or hold a label.
Can a thought think?
Can an image imagine anything?
What is i, a thought, an image, sensation? Or something that can be actually experienced : seen, heard, tasted, smelled, touched?

Look for this I, does it exist in actuality?
Or it's all a story ABOUT a person, that has an identity?


What happens to the imagined spoon when it's no longer imagined?

Work with this and write soon.
Sending love

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Kvist
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Re: Glimpsed it. Not yet living it.

Postby Kvist » Mon Dec 19, 2016 8:17 am

Ok, the thing is, there is no 'you' to drop or hold a label.
Oh! Yeah. Right. I misunderstood your earlier question about looking for Kvist. I turned back to look at the physical person Kvist.
Hahaha! I've read similar things so many times but this is different.
What happens to the imagined spoon when it's no longer imagined?
It's was never there to begin with.
Look for this I, does it exist in actuality?
Always imagined visual input and other sense data had a place to land, to stick to. Hahaha! Need to sit with this for a while.
Thank you sooo much for sticking by!

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Ilona
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Re: Glimpsed it. Not yet living it.

Postby Ilona » Mon Dec 19, 2016 9:59 am

Always imagined visual input and other sense data had a place to land, to stick to. Hahaha! Need to sit with this for a while.
Yes, there is a place to land- knowing. There sense data is known. But why would the sense data need to stick to anything?
It's like if you look up the sky and see clouds passing by and you expect a cloud to stick to the sky. Does not make sense, right? So all the perceiving is happening, there is awareness of perceived, there is knowing of perceived. Perceiver? An assumption.
Keep looking!
Is there a me at the centre of experience?
How is this me perceived?

Sending love

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Kvist
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Re: Glimpsed it. Not yet living it.

Postby Kvist » Mon Dec 19, 2016 11:01 am

I follow sense data, there is an experience. I don't know what "me" means anymore. I clearly see the difference between story and direct experience but it feels like I am standing in a thick fog at a crossroad. I think I am at the right crossroad though. I do not se a me at the center of experience but I don't see anything else either.
I want to be clear about all this and choose the right words to describe it so that you can correctly pinpoint my where abouts. I'm not sure I'm successful.

I am eternally grateful for your support!
Love
Kvist


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