Tim

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Mohrtim
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Re: Tim

Postby Mohrtim » Fri Dec 09, 2016 8:13 pm

Hello Sandra,

Hmmm, as of right now (about an hour) after reading ur post, had two different responses to it.

First relief for the change of direction, cause u hit the nail on the head!! The sense of this initial response was different than what "I" would except, so I was very welcomed. And also I had no "answers" to ur pointers to help me observe thoughts.

So now, after an hour of "observing" (aka probably more like my regular way of using my mind) I have the "answers! No big surprise, this is what "I" do.

So I won't post the "answers", since that would be the same as before. Instead I will keep I observing and see if and what else happens.

Will post again, once there is something different.

Pls keep on nudging me!

Tim

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Mohrtim
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Re: Tim

Postby Mohrtim » Fri Dec 09, 2016 9:07 pm

So here something that "feels" different!

Thinking is our 6th sense. It is just like hearing, seeing and so forth. So answering the pointers in that manner, noticing a thought is the very same as smelling something. The action of noticing is the same. Now same as with smells, there r good or bad smells. Smells just hang there, some we notice some we don't, so we don't know what we will smell next. Than the breeze might take them "elsewhere". We don't have a "choice" about what we smell, it kind of just happens. Yes we can direct smelling, to some degree, by consciously trying to smell something different. But we can't not smell. A smell does something to our body.

The difference might be, that with smelling and seeing we don't necessarily get the sense of I as much as when "I think", which has a stronger sense that I smell ( until it starts to stink, than I gets really strong)

So what I'm getting from this inquiry so far, is that I have been using thinking as a sensual reenforcement of myself!


So thinking like any other bodily function just happens, rather than I am the one doing it.

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Canfora
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Re: Tim

Postby Canfora » Fri Dec 09, 2016 9:55 pm

Hi Tim,

Ups, it seems you had some difficulty with the questions about thoughts? Remember when I told you you may have to be patient with your guide? We are still getting acquainted one with the other and throwing those questions your way may not have been the best idea. Sorry!
So I won't post the "answers", since that would be the same as before.
Do you mean that instead of describing what can be observed you would share your thoughts about the questions I made?

Ah, maybe I should ask you first if you are able to observe thoughts before asking all those questions about thoughts? Are you able to observe thoughts while they are happening? Or do you get caught by their content instead?

Your last post makes lots of sense to me - although it seems you are mostly thinking about thoughts instead of looking at them?
So what I'm getting from this inquiry so far, is that I have been using thinking as a sensual reenforcement of myself!
Absolutely, it's the thinking that reinforces the belief in a self.

What is this myself you talk about, Tim?
Are thoughts about a self, the self?

Take care,
S

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Mohrtim
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Re: Tim

Postby Mohrtim » Sun Dec 11, 2016 12:23 am

Hello Sandra,

Thx for yesterday's experience!! Painful but very insightful!!
ps, it seems you had some difficulty with the questions about thoughts? Remember when I told you you may have to be patient with your guide? We are still getting acquainted one with the other and throwing those questions your way may not have been the best idea. Sorry!
In hindsight this was the best way for me to wake up. If u would have ask me if I would be able to observe thought, I would have been convicted I could. As it turned out, I couldn't. I was quite the rough recognition that I get caught up in the content of thoughts rather than observe them!! So the experience was necessary.

I learned that I'm an explorer rather than an observer. I use mental action to get it. Which is so different than just observing it. First has lots of I, second none. Took me by surprise, that the way I use mental action is actually the cause of what I'm trying to "outgrow". So I have to let go, that that i value so much. Secondly I come to understand, that I'm very head strong, meaning if thinking is another sense, i use it 95% compared to the other senses. Using Any of the other senses, the experience is way less I.

So ur response yesterday cause mayor resistance and frustration. It took me until this morning, reading about it in the LU book, and doing the exercise in finding out if there is a sufferer, to come to terms with yesterday's insight. So thank u so much, it opened up a new world!!

Been practicing being observant all day. It takes effort, but I can see the difference in the mental action between thinking and observing. The I thought kept trying to "sneak" in. This time I just observed instead of trying to get to the bottom of it. Additionally using the "evidence" method (is there somebody/something behind a sensation or a thought) I have come the the understanding that I is just a thought.
Are thoughts about a self, the self?
Thoughts about self or any thought that gives the impression of I, is only a thought, until activated by a certain kind of attention. Actually any thought is i less. It seems a "habit" to add i to it, which than makes it an I-thought, which than reinforces the belief in I, when left unchecked. Upon investigation if there is anything or anybody with this thought, it isn't possible to find anything, except the thought it self. So it not thoughts about the self, that r the self, but rather any sensation that I add I to, that is than felt as if I felt it. In "reality" the sensation can be felt without the i.
What is this myself you talk about, Tim?
Haha, that's the one that really hit home yesterday!! Lots of frustration!! But I had a really good chance to observe my thoughts!! Wasn't pretty!
So as of now, I have experienced that the I is not a sense, but has been "down graded" to a thought. The sense was like a bodily sense, quite obvious and evidently, which now I can't say about the I. I can feel I it only in relation with something. Not alone by it self, like the sense of hearing or seeing. With that it can't be a sense, but only a thought, since this is the only thing I attaches to independent of a sense.

More grateful than ever Tim

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Re: Tim

Postby Canfora » Sun Dec 11, 2016 4:55 pm

Hi Tim!

All kind of feelings can be felt while doing this inquiry and some intensity is to be expected. It's a sign you're poking in the right place.
Don't use the "there in no self here" as a way to avoid these stuff. Notice how these protective mechanisms are happening as the result of questioning beliefs. Welcome them like you would welcome a dear friend and have a look to what they're trying to protect. What can be seen behind the pain, resistance and frustration? Have a look.

Take care,
S

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Mohrtim
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Re: Tim

Postby Mohrtim » Mon Dec 12, 2016 12:00 am

Hello Sandra,
What can be seen behind the pain, resistance and frustration? Have a look.
So the first thing that came up, was the belief of being a separate Self. Which took me by surprise, cause I have just barely accepted not being a self and that feels like way further out there. I realized that all me life I have had the experience of being inferior or superior to somebody and I spent great effort in "keeping" the relationship at this distance. Than I remembered that my work has let me to start connection with animals/people. So the distance has been reduced, yet i still hold the belief I am separate from my environment!

Naturally followed, that than I must belief I am a body. And yes, I do still belief I am a body. The negative physical sensations give me the first experience of being a body and than secondly if I use a technic to reduce or diminish these symptoms, than I get the experience that I did this!! So here we go again, just like the difference between explorer and observer of the thoughts, here I'm challenged to go about this differently. So instead of trying to figure this riddle out(which would give me more I) I practice being with the symptoms of resistance. Greeting them like friends causes enough resistance, that it feels like I'm on the right path. It cuts out the mental part (my favourite) and brings in the emotional.

Yes I have noticed that the "no self" can be a hiding aspect. It just another "entity" that carries responsibility. It first helped me, because recognizing an I thought I connected that with a heavier feeling in the body. So body awareness is up and I can detect the I thoughts because of it. But than of course if I do something about the I thought than I did it.

So I'm still running around in circles on this issue. But it still feels like some thin layers have come of!!

Thx, Tim

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Re: Tim

Postby Canfora » Mon Dec 12, 2016 8:44 pm

Hi Tim,
So the first thing that came up, was the belief of being a separate Self. Which took me by surprise
What do you mean by "the first thing that came up, was the belief of being a separate Self"?
Are you saying that thoughts about you were triggered? Do you expect these kind of self thoughts to never appear again?
I have just barely accepted not being a self and that feels like way further out there
Ah, acceptance...
Let's say you left your house, you happily walk down the road and bang, thoughts start spinning around about the possibility that you forgot to close the front door.
And you really want to know if the door is open or closed!
Is acceptance of any of these two possibilities needed? Is acceptance reassuring? Will acceptance equal the knowing of what is true?
Or - if you really want to know the truth about the door, you go back and observe the door?
If you are like me, you will have to look to the damn door more than once and even touch it, until you're reasured that the door is closed.
So, this is not about acceptance. You don't need to accept new ideas (self, no self, bla bla) without questioning they're veracity Tim. Drop acceptance!
So I'm still running around in circles on this issue.
Yes, it may feel like that. That's because you're trying to figure things about with the same thing that causes the illusion, the mental state. You can't think yourself into seeing, the same way you can't end your hunger by eating a cookbook. Don't worry, we will get there. It takes some practice.

Let's get back to basics. If there is a you, the you is a kind of thing that is present here and now, in your immediate experience - it must be a thing that is here now, that can be found, perceived, observed and described, just like any thing that is here. So, let's keep hunting :)

I'm going to suggest other exercise (you did amazingly well with the pointing one), so that you stop running in circles and look to what is present here. Don't use your imagination, even if the exercise seems simple or too easy, have a go at it. Write these labels each in a different paper: cup, table, window, phone, tv, fruit, rug, Tim (use your name here, if it isn't Tim). Then place all the pieces of paper next to, or upon the things themselves.

Share what you discover.

Take care,
S

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Mohrtim
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Re: Tim

Postby Mohrtim » Tue Dec 13, 2016 12:33 am

Hello Sandra,


Thank u, thank u, thank u!! Our inquiry is working!! It's coming of I layers. Pls keep spinning the cycle faster and wider, cause I get the sense that Tim( real name of character) isn't go to let go all at once, but rather that we r going to have to peel it layers until the is "Nothing" left.

So this morning I had an interesting insight, that gave me a good glimpse of the light at the end of the tunnel.

Making friends with pain, frustration and resistance yesterday
it came to me that when resisting is the opposite of surrendering, and surrendering is the way to the truth, than I have quite literally been resisting all my life, while I thought I was doing a "good thing". I have recognize that I have always been busy changing what is!!! There hasn't been a moment in my life I haven't actively tried to change something for the "better". Made me very successful, which now I can see as the opposite of success full, considering that there is the prospect of an experience in which is realized that not only is change not necessary, but should any change be applied, a perceived illusionary entity is created?! All this resonates, cause I have had glimpses of this "other" experience, without I, where what is just is. For example, a while ago, I had a dentist appointment for a root canal. Needless to say I hate going to the dentist. I remember that on the way to the appointment I started to become calm. All thru the procedure I felt like this is absolutely ok. Didn't have to be anywhere else, didn't matter how long it would take and felt "alive" with curiousity. Now I realize this is the same "state" i experience when I was working with horses or clients?! Not sure if this is "right or wrong", but it gave me a further glimpse of first that there is a different way to experience life and secondly what it could possibly "feel" like!!

Ok, back to today homework:
Are you saying that thoughts about you were triggered? Do you expect these kind of self thoughts to never appear again?
Yes, that looks different today. First of, my mental state "tricked" me into accepting a "smaller" victory, so I wouldn't challenge the big one. Yesterday I didn't realize they r both the same. But r a thought, and I caught in the content, again!!! Taking it with humour!! This thoughts and similar activators of the sense of I will probably keep on coming. What I can experience now though, that the depth that they pull me to is not as deep and the time period it take me to realize it is shortening. With that is just a matter of time until they might or might not show up, but today I can relate to the experience that they might not have "anything to stick to".

All this said, I have come also to realize, that the mental state is tricky and I have been tricked uncountable times into been "complacent" only to find out that I have been pulled back into it again. So let's keep locking!!!!
Ah, acceptance...
Hahaha, wow yes, one of the tools of complacency!! Just like the notion of no self, leads to stagnation. Yes I'm very much like u, I have to go back to check the door and touch it numerous times. Acceptance "feels" like the right thing, but it isn't my "nature" and it leads to a dead end. Thx again for making that obvious. That seems to be my biggest need, to literally have everything pointed out the me!
If there is a you, the you is a kind of thing that is present here and now, in your immediate experience - it must be a thing that is here now, that can be found, perceived, observed and described, just like any thing that is here. So, let's keep hunting :
So, i cannot be found!!

If I try to perceive I, it can only be done with the "help" of a sense. But really once the sense is removed, there is no I. But the senses function without an I. So the senses make an experience of I possible, which means I is only an experience.

Cannot be observed independent of observable action. Action removed, nothing to observe.

Can only be described as an addition to something else, not by itself.
I'm going to suggest other exercise
Hmmm, first impression was I can only put Tims foot or hand on the paper. Than I thought how come I am putting Tim on the paper? How come I am different of Tim??? Now I'm left with i don't even know WHO Tim is?? I'm left with a body which i can't for certain say that is Tim!!So there is nothing that i can put on the paper!!

This has been a few remarkable days!! So much has changed, yet nothing at all!

Thx so much for taking so much time!!

Tim

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Mohrtim
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Re: Tim

Postby Mohrtim » Tue Dec 13, 2016 2:45 am

Hi, quick follow up about the 2 hrs since my last post.

Major I thought attack!!

I was actually starting to feel uneasy while I was writing the post. I noticed that the post was way more exuberant, than I usually am. It i just let it flow anyway.

After I finished I got a real energy boost, to such a degree that I fell into old work habits!! I'm an recovering workaholic, so I know the symptoms very well. While in this old mode of operation (and I notice being in this mode) heavy I thought of all kind!! I went with it, observing all of it. Luckily it only lasted for about 1 1/2 and than suddenly it was like I woke up, the work had lost its grip and I had the strong sense to continue with my new practice of looking! Wow this resistance factor is powerful!! Fascinating, once one can observe its numerous different aspects.

Again grateful for the opportunity to share, it makes such a difference, to a) being able to write all this down and b) to know that there is somebody there with the right kind of knowing to guide.

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Re: Tim

Postby Canfora » Tue Dec 13, 2016 12:51 pm

Hi Tim,
I was actually starting to feel uneasy while I was writing the post. I noticed that the post was way more exuberant, than I usually am. It i just let it flow anyway.
If what you usually are is a construct, its boundaries - if questioned - can seem to start expanding or contracting. Let it flow :)

Can you write a little more about this?
So the senses make an experience of I possible, which means I is only an experience
Take care,
S

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Mohrtim
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Re: Tim

Postby Mohrtim » Tue Dec 13, 2016 10:18 pm

Hi Sandra,

Thx for the "picture" of the construct!! Makes things much easier.

[quote]n you write a little more about this?
Mohrtim wrote:
So the senses make an experience of I possible, which means I is only an experience[/quote]

Wow, that opened up a new can of worms! Interesting to see if it all makes it on to the paper?

So today's insight, is the I isn't even an experience but rather a symptom. Actually not even a symptom, because that still gives it "reality". It is more the result of a chain of events. But I stick to symptom for now, because it is easy to relate to how to "deal" with it. Just like the symptoms of a disease (I'm not saying the I is a disease), it will give a short relief of it, but doesn't address the cause.

So let me backtrack. Every organisms has a certain level of attention (awareness) of what is (around them), from the one cell to the human organism. I think the "problem" starts, when this attention intensifies. Which in it self is a normal aspect. Thinking of little kids, how their attention turns from unfocused, to curiousity, to direct focus and so forth. Along this natural process something happens to a part of this attention. A sense of ownership arises. Right after that it a thought. Who owns this experience? And here we have the I.

Investigating attention let first do that thru the senses. So attention is "applied" thru one of the sense. First there is only attention, than is becomes focused, than it becomes I see, I hear ect. I have taken possession of seeing, hearing, thinking.

On a side note, this taking ownership applied to everything equally. This ownership, the second step in "having" attention, has the some " value" to my house, I think, I hurt myself. The common denominator is the same. This goes as far as having an expectation of the future. Ownership of the future!!

From the perspective of resistance vs surrender, once something is owned, no matter how small or big, resistance to surrender IT leads to controlling it, improving it and so forth. So surrender is the giving up of ownership, of which we didn't own in the first place.

So back to the senses. So the sense of I arises from focused attention of any of the senses. So first insight, the I needs attention thru the senses. Because it is possible to have an experience of hearing, seeing ect without the I. Actually the more defocused one of the senses becomes, there is a gradual diminishing of I. Same for the marathon runner, painter or writer, all describe the same experience of being in the Zone. "It felt like I wasn't doing it, it just kind of happened". To take this further, if the sense are "switched of" like meditation or sense deprivation tank (floating) there is still this attention. So in short, the I shows up in an "overuse" of a sense, aka focused attention. The less focused, sense of ownership goes down, attention is "liberated".

On a side note. This captivation aspect would try to take ownership of this attention at any level of intensity or lack thereof! Either like see "I am still here" or "that is the Higher form of myself"!! Only "looking" really good gives clarity about the relationship between these aspects of attention.

Further side note. Not only is focused attention the initial point of the process that leads to the symptom of I, but is also causes contraction. Which would be enough of an experience, once realized fully, to let go of focused attention.

So free attention, focused attention, ownership, I. So backwards, surrender, defocus, free attention.

Liberated attention=seeing what is without taking/owning ownership.

Tim

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Canfora
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Re: Tim

Postby Canfora » Wed Dec 14, 2016 3:08 pm

Hi Tim,

Thank you for your answer!

Regarding the senses, would you say they're prior to any sense of I?

What makes things happen? Writing a post here, for example, how does it happen?

Take care,
S

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Mohrtim
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Re: Tim

Postby Mohrtim » Wed Dec 14, 2016 11:52 pm

Hello Sandra,
Regarding the senses, would you say they're prior to any sense of I
Yes the senses are prior and also more importantly independent of "the sense of I".

The senses r the outer receptors of the nervous system, which undoubtedly works independent of an I. So nervous system undoubtedly functions with an I. Yet somehow a reduction takes place for what is being see (lots of information input) to just what I see ( only very little). This reduction(or focus attention) probable happens early on, when a child switches from whole brain functioning to predominantly left (focus) left brain hemisphere. It seems the smaller the picture gets, the more we loose sight of the "big picture" and it the absence of that the I "naturally" arises?

So the "picture" I saw this morning was like this:

I am Life. A little tiny part of this seperates from IT. Only a short distance away that little part takes on a different "identity". With that the distance increases further yet. Than there are three general directions this part of the "source" is potentially taking. Either straight ahead (pulling like a dog on the leach, away from home), or sometimes there is a path to the side, which parallels home or gets closes to home, but ends in a dead end. The third option (taking the connection(the leach)back home isn't taken until all the dead ends are all investigated and/or the distance to home get so far, that one runs out of LIFE. Because the farther one gets, the more unsustainable existence gets. (The more sense of I, the more contractions, which literally chocks of life). It turns out that all the detours, which apparently ended in a dead end, where "lessons" which each one been a piece of the puzzles of Life. I also got the sense that no two individuals have the same path and that the end of the "excursion" will be the same for everyone. At some point, the "call home" is acted upon by every little part. So here I find myself long ways away from home, yet i can see it clearly. It is a straight path, but there are obstacles I the way. But these are minor, because I can see home and there is no more urge to take one of the turn off. I also
see everybody else in this picture, most still going the other way, or taking a side path.
It made perfect sense that everybody would do that at this time, because i know their eventual outcome to their search!!

Throughout all of this there was a sense that this little part is still part of the source, not entirely disconnected, just enough to "allow" for an excursion. This connection is "influential" without being recognized, until turning towards it, ever so slightly. Than one can see. With this "Influence" and the ensured outcome, no separate influence is needed or even possible!! The experience of such "individualized attempt" is one of the many "side paths".

After "seeing" this picture, so many of my experiences are falling into place. They still keep on coming and still seeing thru these eyes it all makes perfect sense. Much more than I can express or am even aware of at the moment.
What makes things happen? Writing a post here, for example, how does it happen?
Haha, I know it isn't me!! What "exactly" makes things happen I might or might not figure out, depending on how far "home" I get. Right now I get the sense that writing this post is the very same thing as the wind moving the branch of the tree. Of no significance at all until one really looks, than everything is a puzzle piece.

How, not me! For quite some time, I have been having the experience that I "for myself" are not very "competent", but there are situations (beyond me) where I'm very competent.

Hahaha, not saying this is one of these moments!! Just saying no I to write something!!

So how exactly is this post been written?? Hmmm, needs to be determined, yet.

Tim

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Canfora
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Re: Tim

Postby Canfora » Thu Dec 15, 2016 12:42 pm

Hello Tim, good morning.
So nervous system undoubtedly functions with an I.
Are you saying the nervous system functions with an I? How come? What is this I exactly?
It seems the smaller the picture gets, the more we loose sight of the "big picture" and it the absence of that the I "naturally" arises?
You can look at this stuff from a telescope or a microscope perspective, sure. I don't understand how any of these perspectives can make an I arise. How do you know the I "naturally" arises? Again, what is this I exactly?
I am Life. A little tiny part of this seperates from IT.
How can life separate from life? Isn't everything that exists life?
So here I find myself long ways away from home, yet i can see it clearly.
What evidence do you see that there is a you that is a long way away from home? Where would this home be other than here? And when would this home be found other than now?

Right now, do you find this self if you look for it? What do you see that is a self?

Big hug,
S

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Mohrtim
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Re: Tim

Postby Mohrtim » Fri Dec 16, 2016 1:07 am

Hello Sandra,
Are you saying the nervous system functions with an I? How come? What is this I exactly
Ups, I'm so sorry. Of course that was meant to be without!!!(Live on an island, no access to a computer, typing on the phone is challenging if the auto correct does its thing!!)

So it doesn't function with an or the I!!
You can look at this stuff from a telescope or a microscope perspective, sure. I don't understand how any of these perspectives can make an I arise. How do you know the I "naturally" arises? Again, what is this I exactly
Hmmm, the limitations of language! I'm not expressing this the way I see it.
Let me try this way.

Senses, nervous system, mind all part of the same system. A faculty of this subsystem of the biological computer that we call body is the potential to "make belief". Let take the example of a hypnotist. He can make somebody "belief" something and and the person might actually act on this "belief". Interestingly not everyone has the same level of suggest-ability! So our thoughts and experiences are the hypnotist. Our nervous system is incapable of not believing what is being suggested, by ones thoughts and the perceived environment. This potential for being hypnotized (belief to be an separate I) "arises naturally" as being alive, until the perception units are "upgraded" by certain actions aka looking.

So here I am, not on the stage anymore, believing to be an I, and find myself in the audience, recognizing the process of how I come to be on the stage in the first place.

So what is the I exactly, the same and nothing more than whatever the hypnotist (thoughts) suggested I to be(dog, cat etc).
How can life separate from life? Isn't everything that exists life?
Language again, with the "picture" I was trying to express that there isn't a "real" seperation only a perceived one. Everything happens in existance or IS alive. Perception (state of Hypnosis) makes this realization impossible.

So as I mentioned, I'm finding myself of the stage. The "picture" gave me experience that leads to seeing that there isn't an I. Not only not in myself but equally in nobody! I find myself giggling all the time at the simplicity of it all. At once I recognized that this laughing is the antidote against being hypnotized again and in general!

So this is the recognition, let keep pocking at the remainders of the old believe, until there is absolute certainty that there isn't anybody there!

Tim


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