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Self-Control

Posted: Thu Nov 17, 2016 11:29 pm
by SwissKid
What brings you to Liberation Unleashed?
I've had a half dozen real (or maybe not real) awakenings, lasting an hour, a day, three days (the last 2--very powerful) but I pop back when in contact with or situations involving people. Still searching/exploring/reading/videos every day for several hours which results in "that full loving, smiling, "only one" feeling, that belief that I have self-realized, but then it goes. I have no trouble surrendering during these contemplations--it's what comes afterward that is concerning and keeps me looking. Here's what the voice keeps saying, "I have to take control, keep appointments, please people, be responsible, be the "doer". No one is going to take care of me. I will be isolated and not survive". I feel very clear intellectually thanks to Robert Wolfe's books and videos. But, perhaps I'm holding onto self in order to survive. Don't know. Also, curiously (not painful/ kinda cool), the deepest realizations involve these intermittent little physiological body shocks that travel from head through torso and/or headache-like sensations at the location of my forehead. Is that normal?

What are you looking for? What do you expect from this?
The end of struggle, anxiety, and sadness is what I'm looking for. What I hope for here is maybe some perspective and advice from a group who knows first hand what I'm talking about. Getting to the end of my struggle would be wonderful.

What is your background in terms of seeking and inquiry?
Been seeking about a year -- every day. A dozen or so teachers--mostly non-duality. Mainly, Eckhart Tolle, Stephen Fulden, Francis Lucille, David Bingham, John Wheeler, Sailor Bob Adamson, Robert Wolfe, Adyshanti. Books, videos, MP3s, Conscious.TV, Budha at the Gas Pump, many Youtubes., meditations.

How ready are you to question your beliefs about who you are and see the truth no matter what? 11

Re: Self-Control

Posted: Tue Nov 22, 2016 7:39 am
by Sarah7
Hey Kid
I'm Sarah and I'd be happy to speak with you.
Have you looked around our site? Do you know what we do here?
Looking forward to speaking with you.
Hugs Sarah xxx

Re: Self-Control

Posted: Tue Nov 22, 2016 7:46 am
by SwissKid
Hey Kid
I'm Sarah and I'd be happy to speak with you.
Have you looked around our site? Do you know what we do here?
Looking forward to speaking with you.
Hugs Sarah xxx
Hi Sarah, thank you for your help. I've looked around and understand. I'm ready!

Kid

Re: Self-Control

Posted: Tue Nov 22, 2016 7:11 pm
by Sarah7
hi Kid
Do you want me to call you kid? Or something else?

House keeping first:
In general, I will ask questions and you look deeply and respond with 100% honesty.

Responses require simple, uncontrived honest looking. There are no wrong or right answers.

Responses are best from direct experience (the physical evidence of seeing, hearing, touching, tasting, and smelling, prior to the story or explanation about them). Long-winded, analytical and philosophical or stream of consciousness answers are best avoided and may even hinder progress. Just listen very closely to the answers that arise in you, and answer to the very best of your ability at that time. Read the article at for more help on distinguishing what is direct experience: http://liberationunleashed.com/resource ... xperience/

Please learn to use the quote function, see for instructions: viewtopic.php?f=4&t=660

Finally you can press 'subscribe to this topic' in the blue bar at the bottom of this page and receive a notification email every time I post here.

So from where you are now can you answer the below.

How do you think, feel or experience the 'self', 'I' or ‘me’'?

For instance does it feel like its in the centre or middle of experience, is it solid or thick, does it feel fixed or permanent, is it inside the body or part of the body, does it change, does it feel uniquely different and separate, does it become more or less solid or obvious depending on experience, does it have colour or shape or texture, is it small or large, does this self own the body or the thoughts and feelings it experiences?

Is it made up of thoughts and feelings, sensations, emotions, likes and dislikes, opinions, memories and experiences, perceptions, character and personality, does this self decide, chose, act, do and control? Anything else? Is there a time when the self is not experienced?

Now have a really good look and tell me where does the 'self' that you conceive yourself to be reside? Is it in the body as a whole, part of the body or somewhere else? Can you pinpoint an exact reference point? Can it be found, at all?

Can anything exist outside the present moment? Can you find anything that does?

In your direct experience, is there anything permanent right now?
Hugs Sarah xxx

Re: Self-Control

Posted: Tue Nov 22, 2016 8:46 pm
by SwissKid
hi Kid
Do you want me to call you kid? Or something else?

House keeping first:
In general, I will ask questions and you look deeply and respond with 100% honesty.

Responses require simple, uncontrived honest looking. There are no wrong or right answers.

Responses are best from direct experience (the physical evidence of seeing, hearing, touching, tasting, and smelling, prior to the story or explanation about them). Long-winded, analytical and philosophical or stream of consciousness answers are best avoided and may even hinder progress. Just listen very closely to the answers that arise in you, and answer to the very best of your ability at that time. Read the article at for more help on distinguishing what is direct experience: http://liberationunleashed.com/resource ... xperience/

Please learn to use the quote function, see for instructions: viewtopic.php?f=4&t=660

Finally you can press 'subscribe to this topic' in the blue bar at the bottom of this page and receive a notification email every time I post here.

So from where you are now can you answer the below.

How do you think, feel or experience the 'self', 'I' or ‘me’'?

For instance does it feel like its in the centre or middle of experience, is it solid or thick, does it feel fixed or permanent, is it inside the body or part of the body, does it change, does it feel uniquely different and separate, does it become more or less solid or obvious depending on experience, does it have colour or shape or texture, is it small or large, does this self own the body or the thoughts and feelings it experiences?

Is it made up of thoughts and feelings, sensations, emotions, likes and dislikes, opinions, memories and experiences, perceptions, character and personality, does this self decide, chose, act, do and control? Anything else? Is there a time when the self is not experienced?

Now have a really good look and tell me where does the 'self' that you conceive yourself to be reside? Is it in the body as a whole, part of the body or somewhere else? Can you pinpoint an exact reference point? Can it be found, at all?

Can anything exist outside the present moment? Can you find anything that does?

In your direct experience, is there anything permanent right now?
Hugs Sarah xxx
Call me Chris.

The physical body seems to be the resting place for SELF—the whole body, and yet I don’t see a SELF there or anywhere. It seems to be more of a little devil that appears out of nowhere. An aside: I find that when I close my eyes and try to see my body’s boundaries, something pulls at the boundaries, out and away from the body shape like a magnet.

Sometimes when I’m alone, a SELF will sort of jump out from behind a bush so to speak and after some thoughts, start talking—It’s lecturing or correcting someone, or explaining something or defending itself, it yells at someone sometimes—with much anger. It seems as though SELF, the speaker, is trying to defend itself for its very existence.

Other times SELF pops up in situations or conversations with people when it feels hurt or criticized in some way. The SELF gets angry. Again, it feels like a strong defending action.

Yes, first comes thoughts, then the feelings, strong emotions, strong opinions and beliefs. This is a SELF that decides, choses, acts, is a doer and controls. In quiet alone times, SELF seems to just sleep in the body, maybe around the chest area.

Your questions: Can anything exist outside the present moment? Can you find anything that does? . . . NO In your direct experience, is there anything permanent right now? . . . NO

Re: Self-Control

Posted: Wed Nov 23, 2016 7:47 am
by Sarah7
Hi Chris!
I want you to look during your day at how labelling happens. See if you can catch ‘I’, ‘I’m’, ‘me’, ‘my’, ‘mine’, ‘I’ve’, etc See if you can see what you apply it too.
Is it applied to doing, thinking etc?
Is it all the time, most of the time?
Is it like a commentary or like an ownership? If ownership is there a weight like with 'money' compared to 'my money'?
Can you see where and when labels happen - before, during or after?
Hugs Sarah xxx

Re: Self-Control

Posted: Wed Nov 23, 2016 11:41 am
by SwissKid
Hi Chris!
I want you to look during your day at how labelling happens. See if you can catch ‘I’, ‘I’m’, ‘me’, ‘my’, ‘mine’, ‘I’ve’, etc See if you can see what you apply it too.
Is it applied to doing, thinking etc?
Is it all the time, most of the time?
Is it like a commentary or like an ownership? If ownership is there a weight like with 'money' compared to 'my money'?
Can you see where and when labels happen - before, during or after?
Hugs Sarah xxx
WHEN ALONE — some of the time throughout the day
noticing something then thinking then commenting/labeling then judging my comment (example: He’s a jerk!)
or
remembering something then thinking then planning/doing then no judging/labeling
(example: Gardener didn’t mow as promised. Get a new gardener.)

WHEN WITH PEOPLE — half of the time in conversation
listening then interjecting “I story” as part of contributing to an ongoing discussion then feelings/judging myself as overly egoic and feel/believe that other person judges me egoic as well.
or
listening or thinking then describing/telling me/my stories then feelings/judging myself as egoic and feel/belief that other person judges me egoic as well.
(Example #1: I am going to . . . (a doing/action). Example #2: I hate/don’t like/think . . . .fill in the blank.)

Chris

Re: Self-Control

Posted: Thu Nov 24, 2016 6:54 am
by Sarah7
So Chris
Is there an ownership to it all? Is there a weight with it?
Is the doing 'me' only to do with planning? I can see you apply it to thinking. Do 'you' do?
Hugs Sarah xxx

Re: Self-Control

Posted: Thu Nov 24, 2016 12:03 pm
by SwissKid
So Chris
Is there an ownership to it all? Is there a weight with it?
Is the doing 'me' only to do with planning? I can see you apply it to thinking. Do 'you' do?
Hugs Sarah xxx
Hi Sarah. Happy turkey day!

I am confused and scratching my head. I'm not sure I understand your new round of questions?

Did I (1) do a poor job of answering your last questions, and you're now asking me to clarify what I wrote?
--or--
Did I (2) really answer your questions as you asked, and in doing so uncovered something which causes you to ask me these new questions?

Because I don't know which it is, I'll try to answer both ways.

(1) Here is my revised answer to yesterday's questions in case I did a poor job . . .

WHEN I AM ALONE — some of the time throughout the day
I am noticing something then I am thinking then I am commenting and/or labeling then I am judging my comment (example: He’s a jerk!)
--or--
I am remembering something then I am thinking then I am planning or doing then I am not judging/labeling
(example: Gardener didn’t mow as promised. I should get a new gardener.)

WHEN I AM WITH PEOPLE — half of the time in conversation
I am listening then I am interjecting “I story” as part of contributing to an ongoing discussion then I have feelings. I am judging myself as overly egoic and I feel/I belief that the other person judges me egoic as well
--or--
I am listening or I am thinking then I am describing or telling me/my stories then I have feelings. I am judging myself as overly egoic and I feel or believe that other person judges me egoic as well
(Example #1: I am going to . . .blank, blank blank (a doing/action). Example #2: I hate/don’t like/think . . . .blank, blank, blank.)

(2) My answer to today's questions in case I uncovered something about myself . . .

As I mentioned in my original introduction, I had a couple of strong experiences that I imagined were self-realizations, based on what I've read, heard and seen from those who have awakened. Some bits of those so-called awakenings remain with me, like . . .

- wider peripheral vision
- ringing in my ears
- feeling that something else is looking through my eyes (not me)
- a feeling of being in a visually foggy focused space--it feels good--but it comes and goes
- I'm smiling more and nicer to people

BUT, although many of my feelings have SOFTENED, I'm still seeking-seeking-seeking, still labelling and judging, still sad, still confused, still worrying, still have anger.

So, my answer to today's questions . . .

Honestly, I DON'T KNOW WHO IS DOING. Intellectually, I know I'm not there, but there are feelings and patterns of behavior that suggest I may be there.

It sort of feels like a me is planning and thinking. I think a me is responding and reacting, but it is that little hiding-behind-a-bush me--not a me that has weight and is in-your-face all the time, but one that carries a sharp pointy stick.

I hope this is helpful. Thanks Sarah.

Chris

Re: Self-Control

Posted: Thu Nov 24, 2016 2:59 pm
by Sarah7
Sorry Chris
I didn't understand. This brain works quite literally!
BUT, although many of my feelings have SOFTENED...............still labelling and judging, still sad, still confused, still worrying, still have anger.
What told you these would disappear? Thought? If so is it a 'this isn't it' thought? If so is thought projecting you into a utopia future where everything is blissful and lovely! If so what is permanent in your direct experience?
Where did you get that expectation from!
Honestly, I DON'T KNOW WHO IS DOING. Intellectually, I know I'm not there, but there are feelings and patterns of behavior that suggest I may be there.
Excellent place to be!
What suggests? What is suggesting?
It sort of feels like a me is planning and thinking. I think a me is responding and reacting, but it is that little hiding-behind-a-bush me--not a me that has weight and is in-your-face all the time, but one that carries a sharp pointy stick.
Lol. Ok so can you predict your next thought? Try it? Did it work?
Do you bring thought? If so from where? Do you send it away? If so how?
Are thoughts yours?
Is the content real?
Hugs Sarah xxx

Re: Self-Control

Posted: Thu Nov 24, 2016 4:39 pm
by SwissKid
Sorry Chris
I didn't understand. This brain works quite literally!
BUT, although many of my feelings have SOFTENED...............still labelling and judging, still sad, still confused, still worrying, still have anger.
What told you these would disappear? Thought? If so is it a 'this isn't it' thought? If so is thought projecting you into a utopia future where everything is blissful and lovely! If so what is permanent in your direct experience?
Where did you get that expectation from!
Honestly, I DON'T KNOW WHO IS DOING. Intellectually, I know I'm not there, but there are feelings and patterns of behavior that suggest I may be there.
Excellent place to be!
What suggests? What is suggesting?
It sort of feels like a me is planning and thinking. I think a me is responding and reacting, but it is that little hiding-behind-a-bush me--not a me that has weight and is in-your-face all the time, but one that carries a sharp pointy stick.
Lol. Ok so can you predict your next thought? Try it? Did it work?
Do you bring thought? If so from where? Do you send it away? If so how?
Are thoughts yours?
Is the content real?
Hugs Sarah xxx
Sarah,

What told me these negative patterns would disappear? Well, DIRECT EXPERIENCE is what told me.

When I had those powerful realizations I menioned that lasted for short periods of time THE NEGATIVE PATTERNS DID DISAPPEAR, and if you’d have asked me at those moments, “Chris, are you suddenly enlightened?” I’d have said, “Wow! Hell yes! Wow! Absolutely! I feel cradled in the hands of God. I am in EACH AND EVERY MOMENT, light, free, giggly, absorbed in what is, in this glorious fog. It’s all just happening, and there’s nothing I have to do . . . ever again.

And then, I’d go watch a British crime drama, then go about my day downtown, love my fellow creatures, smile a lot, and by nightfall . . . BAM! It’s gone. Next day, I am seeking harder than ever because I lost it. And, I’m wondering, “I’ll bet it was the crime drama, damn it! I shouldn’t have watched all that suspense and murder.” All “I” thoughts.

So, bottom line, my thoughts are telling me I know what IT is, but that is an “I” thought, so now “I am” really confused, and not at all clear about what “I” know for sure. Time for a big glass of white wine.

Wow! I’m just now remembering—during and while enjoying those wonderful direct experiences, I’m also still frantically seeking online/reading, watching spiritual teacher videos, trying to improve and/or hold on to the experience, knowing somehow it’s going to go away. Is it possible my stupid ego self isn’t that stupid afterall and turns out it is really, really good at faking an enlightenment?

What is permanent in my experience? Seemingly, nothing.

Can I predict my next thought? No way, no how.

Do I bring thought or send it away? I don’t think so.

Are thoughts mine? Yes.

Is the content real? I’m just not sure at this point, but I’m leaning toward “yes”

Re: Self-Control

Posted: Fri Nov 25, 2016 9:39 am
by Sarah7
Hi Chris
What told me these negative patterns would disappear? Well, DIRECT EXPERIENCE is what told me.
What aspect of direct experience told you so. Pull this apart and have a look. Is it sensation? Emotion? Thought? Thought content? What? What I'm saying is, is there a thought that says ' it didn't happen then so it shouldn't happen this time or the next etc. So if it does happen, then 'this' isn't it' thought. Is that there or something like it?
Next day, I am seeking harder than ever because I lost it.
What are you wanting? What is it you are looking for? A repeat of the previous experience? Or is there more in the list?
What says you have lost it? Thought? What can thought know outside of itself?
Do I bring thought or send it away? I don’t think so.
Is there an instance when you think you do?
Are thoughts mine? Yes.
What makes them yours?
Hugs Sarah xxx

Re: Self-Control

Posted: Fri Nov 25, 2016 12:10 pm
by SwissKid
Hi Chris
What told me these negative patterns would disappear? Well, DIRECT EXPERIENCE is what told me.
What aspect of direct experience told you so. Pull this apart and have a look. Is it sensation? Emotion? Thought? Thought content? What? What I'm saying is, is there a thought that says ' it didn't happen then so it shouldn't happen this time or the next etc. So if it does happen, then 'this' isn't it' thought. Is that there or something like it?
Next day, I am seeking harder than ever because I lost it.
What are you wanting? What is it you are looking for? A repeat of the previous experience? Or is there more in the list?
What says you have lost it? Thought? What can thought know outside of itself?
Do I bring thought or send it away? I don’t think so.
Is there an instance when you think you do?
Are thoughts mine? Yes.
What makes them yours?
Hugs Sarah xxx
Okay, all of these—sensations, emotions, and thoughts.

The thoughts were:

THOUGHT This feels like what spiritual teachers and liberated seekers talk about and describe
THOUGHT This is IT, but I better get online and check, go back to descriptions online and be sure, compare it with others’ descriptions.
THOUGHT Will this last? And, thoughts of doubt that this is it.

You know, I don’t know what self-realization is first hand. I can’t know, so I don’t know what to expect. The only way to even begin to glimpse at what it is is to listen to those who say they are self-realized and set themselves up as teachers and examples. They write books. They get interviewed online, They sell us a story and a set of DVDs. If I am confused it is because their combined message is confusing. Some of them say everything changes and nothing changes, or it is the end of seeking. Okay, give me that. All who are seeking feel a separation from their true nature. They can’t help it, and can’t help but seek a return to some kind of oneness or home. If IT comes with some peace and freedom, I’m good with that. It doesn’t have to be like the experiences I had.

What says I have lost it? I am no longer experiencing it — along with the sensations, emotions, and thoughts.

What can thought know outside of itself? Nothing.

Is there an instance when I can bring thought? Well, If I'm feeling sad, I might bring sad thoughts and wallow in them. I don't know. One thought leads to another.

Are thoughts mine? Yes. What makes them mine? My thoughts belong to me, or at least relate to me.

Re: Self-Control

Posted: Sat Nov 26, 2016 8:36 am
by Sarah7
Morning Chris!
Okay, all of these—sensations, emotions, and thoughts.
And was thought explaining sensation and emotion? In other words overlaying a story about this experience?
What can thought know outside of itself? I know I've asked this before.
Can the word ever be the experience? E.g. Can the word water be water?
You know, I don’t know what self-realization is first hand. I can’t know, so I don’t know what to expect. The only way to even begin to glimpse at what it is is to listen to those who say they are self-realized and set themselves up as teachers and examples.
Actually no. Everything should be verified by yourself. You have no way of knowing whether what they say is true or not. This is one of the reasons we ask you not to read whilst we are working with you. Everything said and that includes me, should be verified in direct experience. That's it. Looking is all that's needed.
What says I have lost it? I am no longer experiencing it — along with the sensations, emotions, and thoughts.
Where are you then of this isn't it? Where did you come back from or go to? Are you experiencing? Did that stop? Or just change? Again, what state is permanent?
Are thoughts mine? Yes. What makes them mine? My thoughts belong to me, or at least relate to me.
Are you pointing at the body here? What are you referring g to with this me?
Hugs Sarah xxx

Re: Self-Control

Posted: Sat Nov 26, 2016 10:40 am
by SwissKid
Morning Chris!
Okay, all of these—sensations, emotions, and thoughts.
And was thought explaining sensation and emotion? In other words overlaying a story about this experience?
What can thought know outside of itself? I know I've asked this before.
Can the word ever be the experience? E.g. Can the word water be water?
You know, I don’t know what self-realization is first hand. I can’t know, so I don’t know what to expect. The only way to even begin to glimpse at what it is is to listen to those who say they are self-realized and set themselves up as teachers and examples.
Actually no. Everything should be verified by yourself. You have no way of knowing whether what they say is true or not. This is one of the reasons we ask you not to read whilst we are working with you. Everything said and that includes me, should be verified in direct experience. That's it. Looking is all that's needed.
What says I have lost it? I am no longer experiencing it — along with the sensations, emotions, and thoughts.
Where are you then of this isn't it? Where did you come back from or go to? Are you experiencing? Did that stop? Or just change? Again, what state is permanent?
Are thoughts mine? Yes. What makes them mine? My thoughts belong to me, or at least relate to me.
Are you pointing at the body here? What are you referring g to with this me?
Hugs Sarah xxx
I am very confused. I’m sad. I’m thinking I am too stupid to figure all this out. And, guess what?
A THOUGHT + A THOUGHT + A THOUGHT ABOUT A THOUGHT

. . . and . . . I am looking at what I just wrote, above. And, guess what?
A THOUGHT ABOUT A THOUGHT

A thought is ONLY a thought. It is NOT REAL. Therefore, the I that it creates is NOT REAL.

I may be on to something here . . . .

Thought overlayed a story on top of MY so-called awakening. First thought said this is it. Then thought said this is not it. Because the event happened to ME and ME does not exist, nothing actually happened. No awakening, no ME to awaken.

Thought knows nothing outside of itself.

A thought/word can not be the experience. The thought/word “water” is not water.

Sarah wrote: Where are you then if this isn't it? Where did you come back from or go to? Are you experiencing? Did that stop? Or just change? Again, what state is permanent?

The awakening experience was only a thought, just as I am only a thought. I didn’t go to or back from anywhere--no I. I’m not experiencing—there is no I. What state is permanent? I doesn’t really understand this question, but then I doesn’t exist, so maybe it doesn’t matter.

Are thoughts mine? NO. No me. Thoughts are evil!

No I in my body. I can't find an I. Boohoo.

What makes thoughts mine? Sorry. No me. Not mine.

Good morning, indeed,

Chris