I am so close

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tsconner
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Re: I am so close

Postby tsconner » Sun Aug 07, 2016 8:42 pm

All the self is is identification with any kind of phenomena. It can identify with anything, even fear, that's all it is capable of doing. I think I see. I'm experiencing some existential fear and watching it, and I think I'm starting to see clearly that all the self is, and can only ever be, is identification with mental phenomena, objects, etc. (anything). This is kinda strange. Not sure where this is going at the moment. I'm completely aware right now of the existential panic, and it is just being watched.

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Ilona
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Re: I am so close

Postby Ilona » Mon Aug 08, 2016 8:06 am

Good to notice! Identifying happens, identity is assumed, it appears that identity is solid, but what is that identifies?
Where is that to which identity sticks?

Sending love
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tsconner
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Re: I am so close

Postby tsconner » Mon Aug 08, 2016 3:45 pm

Identity sticks to this mental image of a self behind the eyes.

I still experience a distinction between when I'm noticing thoughts just happening to 'me' and when I'm actively working something out in my mind. The thinker of thoughts still appears to be real. The feeling that something is there using the brain to solve a problem is still there.

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tsconner
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Re: I am so close

Postby tsconner » Tue Aug 09, 2016 6:12 pm

Ha! I think I'm seeing through the "thinker of thoughts" vs "thoughts happening" distinction. When the thoughts/feelings/actions are preserving what feels nice or keeps pain or suffering from being experienced, then an 'I' thought comes in to take ownership. When the thoughts/feelings/actions are considered "bad" or against the image that the 'I' thought has of itself then, automatically, the ' I' thought resists it and says that thought just happened.

When thought "just happens" it's thoughts that don't have much relative weight to anything I should be concerned about. And it seems as if 'I' am not their author. When situations arise that cause moderate to strong feelings then an I seems to always be involved and is taking credit for the thoughts/feelings/actions.

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Re: I am so close

Postby tsconner » Tue Aug 09, 2016 9:56 pm

Once I unconsciously identify with something, the thoughts and feelings and emotions attach to whatever was identified with, and the longer the chain of attachments is, and the longer the duration, the easier it is to mistake for an identity. As long as conscious awareness is watching everything, there is nothing to attach to. There are only experiences happening. Happening to no one.

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tsconner
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Re: I am so close

Postby tsconner » Wed Aug 10, 2016 6:46 am

When i go unconscious i feel that I'm the thinker of thoughts. Which is weird because i thought it would be the other way around. The sense of 'I' arises and is experienced as I when conscious attention is lost.

That's a strange paradox. Am I just making this up?

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Re: I am so close

Postby Ilona » Wed Aug 10, 2016 2:04 pm

thank you for replies, lots of stuff that we can work with.
Identity sticks to this mental image of a self behind the eyes.
isn't that another mental image?
imagine yourself same time tomorrow, where are you? what are you doing? hold that image. then look, where is that apparent identity?
Identity sticks to this mental image of a self behind the eyes.
look behind the eyes, is there a self looking out of the eyes. or it's an image in your head, that came from the assumption that there must be one? question that assumption. must there be one? is there a witness?
The thinker of thoughts still appears to be real.
the thinker is a thought. is there a thinker without the thought "thinker"? how does this thinker appear real? do you see, hear, feel, smell, taste the thinker?
When i go unconscious i feel that I'm the thinker of thoughts. Which is weird because i thought it would be the other way around. The sense of 'I' arises and is experienced as I when conscious attention is lost.
[/quote][/quote]

the I arises with the story.. is there i without the story?

sending love
Truth realized will set you free.
http://ilonaciunaite.com/book

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tsconner
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Re: I am so close

Postby tsconner » Wed Aug 10, 2016 6:45 pm

There is no I without the story.

Awareness is the fundamental constant.

The sensation of grabbing onto a chair appears in awareness exactly the same as thought appears in awareness.

Awareness contains everything. The deepest hurt, the strongest sense of I, all belief, appears in the one thing that has always been here...awareness. Not MY awareness, because my most intimate thoughts and feelings arise in the same place as a sight, sound, a human interaction, a cocktail party, anything.

Everything is an appearance in awareness, the only thing that has been constant.

Everything pops in and out of awareness. That's why nothing could ever be permanent except awareness itself.

Even if I were to believe that it's possible I could have a soul, and that that soul would be 'me', the soul still exists in awareness. Awareness swallows everything.

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Re: I am so close

Postby Ilona » Thu Aug 11, 2016 4:07 pm

Nicely said :)

How does it feel to see this? What looks different? What looks the same? Tell me more what you see.
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Re: I am so close

Postby tsconner » Thu Aug 11, 2016 6:42 pm

It feels like every manifestation in awareness is equally equal. Things and events only have "weight" or "meaning" when this body/mind identifies with a thought+feeling+emotion combination in response to the thing or event. The body/mind's thought+feeling+emotion combination is also just another manifestation in awareness with no inherent meaning or weight. It's impossible for anything to be other than completely neutral. Nothing affects awareness. Nothing can be "strong" enough to pierce through awareness (into what? haha). The strongest personal suffering takes place in the same place as everything else, and awareness remains equally untouched by everything. I guess this is why some people say that the universe is an illusion, because everything is so equally equal, but everything appears to have relative weight and substance.

It feels freeing and a little depressing, I guess. But I see that that feeling is not me, so it's all good :)

I've been having these days where I behave very authentically. I compare it to when I was a small child. I guess I'm seeing how everything is always flowing, including this body/mind, and there's nothing to reach out and grab because it will be gone, with only awareness remaining :) the thing that's always there witnessing every pleasure/discomfort/suffering, and then witnessing it go.

As far as what looks different and what looks the same, I feel like I'm getting a more accurate representation of what is going on around me without all of the compulsive judging of everything I see. Judgment still arises, but I see it as being a thought+feeling.

And I'm not sure about what looks the same. I guess everything looks pretty much the same.

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Re: I am so close

Postby Ilona » Fri Aug 12, 2016 9:24 am

Great, thank you.
Now let's see, is awareness the witness? Is there a witness? Are you the witness?
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tsconner
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Re: I am so close

Postby tsconner » Sat Aug 13, 2016 5:47 am

I'm not sure if my ontology is mixing in with what I'm about to say, but I see everything as follows:

Awareness is the ultimate. It's the end-all be-all. I don't know the nature of this "awareness" other than what it absolutely has to be in my thinking, which is that it allows for everything! It is the most pure, and clear thing that could possibly exist. I don't understand the depths of its perfection, but I can get an experiential hold on the fact that it is perfectly pure.

I don't understand this "nothingness" Ilona. And I know, necessarily, that it can't be known, because that would turn it into an object of consciousness, which wouldn't be it because whatever possible way I could conceive of it would arise in consciousness and necessarily not be "it".

I see that no separation exists. Whatever this nothingness is, it is without limit.

I was thinking today about the thought "why is this nothingness even here?" That was probably the most profound thought that I've ever had in my life. Why does this nothingness exist, that allows for all of these supposed "objects" to exist? What "law" made this nothingness exist in the first place?! Why is it here????

There's nothing left to figure out regarding what all of this is. It is perfect meaninglessness. The most sublime perfect meaninglessness that could only exist because of the games we play as humans. The beauty of this nothingness is manifested in the complete and utter spectrum of all of the possible human experiences.

Once again, I haven't digested what all of this means, but that question that I had is still so wonderfully unanswered and lovely: why does the nothingness exist? Did it necessarily have to? What kind of intelligence is behind such a thing? (I don't mean to get lost in words. I'm just having fun trying to express what these implications are :)

Wow. That's all I can say. I would love to hear your thoughts on why this nothingness is here, Ilona. :)

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Re: I am so close

Postby Ilona » Sat Aug 13, 2016 11:26 am

thank you for sharing your ponderings. it's great that you see that awareness is always here, always present, pure, unobstructed and empty. what does it mean is a question that invites stories.. and all words, however beautiful, are just words.

here is an exercise for you to play, look at everything through this lens and see how view changes. it's called bahyia sutra. spend time with it, see in experience what it is pointing to

In the seen, there is only the seen,
in the heard, there is only the heard,
in the sensed, there is only the sensed,
in the cognized, there is only the cognized.
Thus you should see that
indeed there is no thing here;
this, Bahiya, is how you should train yourself.
Since, Bahiya, there is for you
in the seen, only the seen,
in the heard, only the heard,
in the sensed, only the sensed,
in the cognized, only the cognized,
and you see that there is no thing here,
you will therefore see that
indeed there is no thing there.
As you see that there is no thing there,
you will see that
you are therefore located neither in the world of this,
nor in the world of that,
nor in any place
betwixt the two.
This alone is the end of suffering.


write what you notice and please answer my question about witness from my previous post.
:)

sending love
Truth realized will set you free.
http://ilonaciunaite.com/book

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tsconner
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Re: I am so close

Postby tsconner » Sat Aug 13, 2016 9:19 pm

I'll spend some time with the sutra. Thanks, Ilona.

1) Is awareness the witness?
2) Is there a witness?
3) Are you the witness?

The answer to all three questions is the same. Awareness=witness. No-thingness is just there allowing for everything. What came to mind when I saw those questions was something like this (and I know it's just a story): It's like "no-thingness" hung itself on a hanger, and it started adding little pieces to itself until it formed a human out of itself, and the human can experience so many things, but it knows that it can only ever be itself.

That's the best way I know how to answer the questions.

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tsconner
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Re: I am so close

Postby tsconner » Sat Aug 13, 2016 11:23 pm

Just wanted to share what I've been noticing:

This work is pure faith. The most pure kind of faith, because there is no choice of faith. Faith is the only option. Truth is. Whatever is untrue is going to go away. It will be "witnessed." Faith stands untouched.

It's like, for all of these years, I was just pretending not to be awake. It's like the mind would say, "yeah, you're awake, but let's not concern ourself with that. There are other things to do."

Strong feelings are manifesting. Illusion being slowly ripped apart is leaving more room for feelings to be felt.

I am very conscious of my surroundings. The noises of the city are all noticeable. It feels like it can be overwhelming.

I'm finding a bit of comfort in knowing that whatever a human being can experience, it is never too much for what "is." What "is" will always be there to contain it.

These are just some things I've been noticing.


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