Understanding but not really seeing

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Re: Understanding but not really seeing

Postby happening » Tue May 24, 2016 7:33 pm

Good stuff! Yes the shift can be really aubtle and be see seen only when looking back..
Well if that was the shift in those 3 minutes, it was not so subtle. Though the change since is indeed subtle, not always noticed, but always there.
Can you look back and tell me, what is different since we started this conversation,
There are a lot of changes. This is going to be a long message, I'm sorry, certainly don't feel like you have to read it all. When someone does this to me, I just skim it. :) But since you asked, and since I'm required to be honest, here we go:

Thoughts are a different animal than they were. Often they are noticed (as thoughts), where they weren't before. They've lost some of their power. Not seeing the same thought keep coming back all the time. It's more like they come and go, and when recognized as thought, they aren't seen as anything special.

I get a kick out of watching this body on automatic, watching it think it's making choices and so on. Hopefully in time this will happen more often (the noticing), as it is fun to watch when noticed.

There is rarely boredom. I'm completely satisfied to just sit/stand somewhere and watch or listen to whatever happens to be present, so long as it's not painful.

The self is on notice. Its understood that its never been there, but there's so much momentum behind it that there's not expectation that those thoughts are just going to disappear right away. It doesn't seem reasonable that a 40-year old fictional self from a conditioned brain is going to just vanish immediately.

The issue of free will seems to have cleared up. I suspect there would have been some trouble accepting this one, had there not already been a head start on it. I watched an hour long video on by Leo Gura on the subject to free will (long before we started this, on YouTube). That has left me with "okay we probably don't have free will" ever since. In the last week, you really nailed that point home, leaving little doubt.

Work doesn't seem as important or urgent. Not sure this is good, I've got clients to keep happy and there are bills. I'm just kind of trusting that life will pull me back into it when it's where the attention should go.

I'm less important than before. Seems like this guy isn't anything particularly special at all. Hope my family doesn't agree!

When looking and seeing we're experience rather than the objects of it, it either brings tears or a small laugh. I'm not prone to either, so this is a change.

This is irrelevant, but I don't think it's just coincidence. I have no experience with lucid dreams, and had one two days after we started this process. Being fully cognizant in a dream is mind blowing. It was simple, just me in the kitchen, but such an interesting experience. The meaning taken from it was that something was starting to be rewired.
what hasn't changed and what you hope/expect would change.
I don't expect anything from you. You have already done so much. Any expectations mentioned below are for this guy, not you.

I don't have any idea what the gateless gate is all about. The only gates I've seen around here are the ones in the background of this website and the one in the photo next to your name above. Not sure I get it, but makes me think I've missed something.

I came here to see truth of no-self, and I've seen it. It's not fully sunk in or noticed as often as I'd like, and my hope is that it will.

There are real changes, but also doubt about whether anything is permanent or not. That leads to more doubts. At the same time, when thinking subsides, so does doubt. I suppose only time can tell. We've been really focused on this here for more than a week, so it's always on the mind. What happens when it's no longer front-and-center of attention? I'm hoping these realizations are really hammered in and won't come loose!

I'm still full of questions. I'd like to be able to say "I have no more questions." However, the questions no longer seem quite as important, but they are still there. When thinking is quiet, that may be where "no more questions" are found. This is the answer to the questions. So can see there's still work to do here.

I don't understand what's so funny. I hear when people fully understand the truth, they can only laugh. I would like to be let in on the joke so that I can have a good laugh too. I have chuckles, but no ROTFL moments, making me think I haven't gotten the joke yet.

Worry and anxiety are still present, though without the same bite. Time will tell on this one, as there's not much to worry about at present.

I still believe in God, and get the sense that maybe I shouldn't? I'm not talking about a bearded man in the sky, but God as life itself, as All That Is. I can see that we can't possibly be separate from "All That Is", otherwise it would only be "Some Of What Is." But still feel like I need to let God be God, whatever that may be. I'm not looking for this to change, just looking to let things be as they are there, whatever they are, I don't need to know.

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Re: Understanding but not really seeing

Postby happening » Tue May 24, 2016 10:52 pm

Here's the "too long didn't read" (tldr) version. Seemingly years worth of largely good change in just a few days, sometimes recognized, sometimes not, but present when really looked for. Some things still soaking in, hoping they stay. Seeking has gone up, attention increased, because there is recognition that this may all be coming together. Very thankful for your help.

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Re: Understanding but not really seeing

Postby Ilona » Wed May 25, 2016 7:49 am

I don't have any idea what the gateless gate is all about. The only gates I've seen around here are the ones in the background of this website and the one in the photo next to your name above. Not sure I get it, but makes me think I've missed something.
:) it's a gateless gate, meaning that there is no gate. Nothing to cross, no one to cross it. It's a metaphor for seekers journey where seeing dissolves seeker. You are not miss anything, there is nothing there other than this, right here right now. No step journey, from here to here.

As for permanence, what do you find permanent? Is there permanence? Or this is ever fresh?
What do you expect to be permanent? Is it like happy ever after, peace and joy no matter what thing?

looking at Santa example, once a kid sees that Santa is not a magical being, that brings presents to all the good kids on one magical night, this seeing, realization is permanent, yes. He can not slip into believing the lie again. It's obvious, that Santa was imagined. This is recognition and drop of belief. Simple as that.
Have a look do you have a doubt that you can ever believe in a lie of separate self?

The cosmic joke may creep on you unexpectedly. All is still unfolding and settling in and that continues... Awakening is an event and a process, here now, always..

(The long version of answer is fine, of course I read all )


Sending love
Truth realized will set you free.
http://ilonaciunaite.com/book

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Re: Understanding but not really seeing

Postby happening » Wed May 25, 2016 10:59 am

:) it's a gateless gate, meaning that there is no gate. Nothing to cross, no one to cross it. It's a metaphor for seekers journey where seeing dissolves seeker. You are not miss anything, there is nothing there other than this, right here right now. No step journey, from here to here.
Thank you, I love the metaphor and this is the best explanation yet. I have to admit, it's exactly these terms that made me google it in the first place, and especially the "gatecrashers" part. I mean, there's no woo or spiritual in there, it's completely different. And gatecrashing sounds like a fun sport doesn't it?
As for permanence, what do you find permanent? Is there permanence? Or this is ever fresh?
It's recognized that I don't exist, and looking at the facts, it cannot be otherwise. The challenge is, it's easily forgotten and the facts always have to be revisited to get there.

When waking up in the morning, self is waiting there and has to be reminded by going through the train of facts again.
What do you expect to be permanent? Is it like happy ever after, peace and joy no matter what thing?
No. There is this default assumption of self that's always there until reminded that it doesn't exist. It's a habit (an addiction?). Self is seen not to exist, yet has to be constantly reminded of the fact. But isn't this to be expected to some extent?
looking at Santa example, once a kid sees that Santa is not a magical being, that brings presents to all the good kids on one magical night, this seeing, realization is permanent, yes. He can not slip into believing the lie again. It's obvious, that Santa was imagined. This is recognition and drop of belief. Simple as that.
When I was a kid, I think I had trouble letting go of Santa too. If I recall correctly, it was not an instant thing at all. But Santa was a hero, whereas I carry no such feelings for self. Maybe realization is permanent, but acceptance takes time.
Have a look do you have a doubt that you can ever believe in a lie of separate self?
My immediate answer was No. But I sat on this a bit because something didn't feel honest, so I kept prodding.

What I found: Yes, I apparently do have that doubt. Looking deeper, I think I must not entirely trust even facts or seeing for some reason. I mean deep down, can we ever truly trust anything at all? Maybe a flaw here.

I think it's just a matter of hammering them in further. If you can find a couple of nails, I'll go find a hammer. I think it only may take one or two good swings and that will be it.

The good news is there are little or no doubts about the facts here. It seems the doubts may instead be about whether I could fall into the trap of believing in the lie again.
The cosmic joke may creep on you unexpectedly. All is still unfolding and settling in and that continues... Awakening is an event and a process, here now, always..
Thank you, I will keep looking for the cosmic joke. :) Don't get me wrong, I've found plenty to laugh/cry about already, but the term "cosmic" really builds up that joke, and I don't think I've seen that one yet.
(The long version of answer is fine, of course I read all )
Thank you, you are very kind. I always just want to make sure I'm being respectful of your time. I've come to recognize that the work you are doing here is the most important work in the world. I'm not sure how I've been so lucky as to cross paths with you. My hope is to reach the point where I can help others with this, like you and the other skilled guides here do. Once becoming aware of this, how can it not be shared. This is how you change the world.

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Re: Understanding but not really seeing

Postby Ilona » Wed May 25, 2016 12:18 pm

No. There is this default assumption of self that's always there until reminded that it doesn't exist. It's a habit (an addiction?). Self is seen not to exist, yet has to be constantly reminded of the fact. But isn't this to be expected to some extent?
It is expected. This needs to be seen over and over again And tested in all situations. And checking happens until that too stops. Till then, keep looking.
I can compare this to another metaphor. Imagine a soap bubble. With a touch of a needle a hole is made and hole gets bigger and bigger until the whole bubble collapses. You can look up on YouTube a bubble bursting in slow motion to see what I mean. So yeah, the hole is made, the rest is a question of time.

Funny how you wanted to hold on to Santa story :) cute! But holding on was useless, the reality of the situation eventually was realised.

And yes, there are many traps and it is possible to fall in. One way out is through- welcoming all and questioning beliefs. Time after initial seeing is a cleanup operation where you can expect all beliefs that are lurking still coming up for inspection.
So keep looking! There is much to explore!

Is there anything else we can look at together?
What burning questions are left?

Sending love
Truth realized will set you free.
http://ilonaciunaite.com/book

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Re: Understanding but not really seeing

Postby happening » Wed May 25, 2016 1:41 pm

Thank you for your reply. So much good advice, I appreciate it. Below is a comment from my previous message (I'll skip the quote function so it doesn't get confused with your words):

"I mean deep down, can we ever truly trust anything at all? Maybe a flaw here."

On further reflection, the only thing we can truly trust is the present moment, this. It is the only thing that is real. And that's exactly what this is here that we're talking about. That means that there need be no worry about old habits of believing in the lie. The truth is in the moment and that is always here. If ever forgotten, it's always easy to find, and now I know where to look. Perfect. :)
So keep looking! There is much to explore!
I'm excited. Change in perspective brings a whole new world.
Is there anything else we can look at together? What burning questions are left?
I know you are here to ask questions, not answer them. So I'll only allude to one and you decide whether or not to answer. The hole has been made in the bubble, as you mentioned, and beginning to burst. When the bubble bursts, I will laugh. If there were a needle (or question) for the other side of the bubble, something to burst it from both sides, what would that be?

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Re: Understanding but not really seeing

Postby happening » Wed May 25, 2016 2:23 pm

Continuing from above. Something found here in the last day is that there are no questions in the moment, in this, in experiencing. No questions can be found there. Just checked. What question could there be? As soon as there are questions (even that question), it's only in the non-existent self, past, future. Thank you for helping me to see this.

I say this because it's been helpful to have you be the one asking questions, rather than me. Any questions I might have simply aren't important, they are distractions. Those questions can only be connected with "I", a thought. There are always questions but they all have the label "mine". I'm figuring this out as we go, but it seems like there's no need to feed the thoughts/labels by asking questions, because there simply aren't any questions when here and now.

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Re: Understanding but not really seeing

Postby Ilona » Wed May 25, 2016 2:55 pm

Beautiful!
I can see how nicely you are coming through the the gate ;)

Tell me, how do you now see free will and choice? What about responsibility and decision making?
Write lots! And give some examples from your current experience.


:)
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Re: Understanding but not really seeing

Postby happening » Wed May 25, 2016 9:55 pm

Great questions! Work got busy today and didn't leave enough time to give a proper reply, as these aren't easy questions. But I've got plenty to write on this, and it's a good opportunity to explore. Rest assured, if there was any kind of free will here, work would have had to wait! :) Real response coming tomorrow. Thanks.

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Re: Understanding but not really seeing

Postby happening » Thu May 26, 2016 3:00 pm

Write lots!
This isn't a good way to get rid of the thinker Ilona! But you asked for it. :) I'm treating this as an exercise to explore understanding of free will. A lot has been written below, but it's not there with any intention to please you (and feel free to skim it or jump to the summary). Instead, it's was written for me (in case it's ever forgotten), or for anyone else reading this that has an analytical mind and looking for proof that there is no free will.

I've intentionally avoided doing any research on the subjects you asked about, so can focus purely on what's understood, making this more of an exercise. Meaning, some of the facts may be off, or maybe not. I believe all of it to be true, but am also not any authority on the subject. I hope someone will correct me if anything is wrong because there is absolutely no interest in "my truth", only in truth.
Tell me, how do you now see free will and choice?
Free will is based on an assumption. We assume ourselves to be decision makers, but once you start taking a close look at thoughts it reveals there is no one making them. Things are running automatically, and they always have been. We have never actually known free will, we just think we do.

We've always assumed we consciously make choices, but in fact we only become aware of the answers after the choices have already been made. The answers just pop up, yet you immediately assume that "you" made the choice since it popped up in your awareness. If looked at closely, this can be observed quite easily.

A lack of free will can also be observed by looking at the body. It is a massive network of systems, all working towards survival and protection of the body. Whether the nervous system, the digestive system, or the immune system, or any other, responses are selected based on existing conditions (genetics, past conditioning, etc.), as well as current inputs to that system. While the nervous system may be the most complex of those systems, the underlying premise and purpose is the same.

Free will is an illusion created by the evolutionary process as a protection mechanism to ensure survival. It enables the brain to simulate a "self" illusion into a memory of the past, or a story of the future. In doing so, responses for future scenarios can be calculated ahead of time rather than in the moment. This enables faster response, and thus increases odds of survival for the organism in any given moment. It seems likely this simulated "self" is exactly the same one that gives people a sense of self. In here and now (the moment), there is no sense of self, only experiencing. So it would seem that the idea of self is intimately connected with the idea of free will, because both are part of the same fictional simulations in the brain.

If there is no free will, why is free will (or lack of it) perceived at all? It seems to be because we are used to polarities: on/off, black/white, right/wrong, and so on. We observe a tree and see that it has no apparent free will of any sort. Whereas we observe an animal or a person, and perceive it has free will. We perceive polar opposites in these two examples, yet it's from a limited perception. Look deep enough and there is the exact same will underlying both the tree and a human, to survive, to propagate; or more simply, to "life." The means of doing so are different, but the purpose is identical. This is not a free will, and perhaps not even any kind of will underlying it at all, it is simply the flow of life, life doing life.

If there is no free will, why do people do dumb things – things that are opposed to their survival? The evolutionary process of life is one that tests every possible scenario out via genetic mutation. Only the mutations that increase survival remain (and thus the organisms having them). We are part of the evolutionary process, and we should fully expect to observe both sides of this in everyday life. If you remove the personal nature of an individual "self" desiring survival separately from the rest of life, the evolutionary process is perfect.

To summarize, there is no free will, and it holds up to experience, experiments and scrutiny. All choices have already been made, which makes it easy to conclude that everything is connected as one.
What about responsibility and decision making?
Decision making is simply conditioned response, which is synonymous with what's covered above. So I'll focus in on responsibility here. But let me know if you are looking for something different with regard to decision making.

The definition of responsibility is "the state or fact of having a duty to deal with something or of having control over someone."

Of course, nothing has "control", but all the systems of the body have responsibility, to the body. This seems to get back to the brain's role in protecting the body, which in turn is to protect the species, which in turn is to ensure survival of life.

The most obvious example of responsibility is the parents' responsibility to their children, to ensure their wellness and thus survival. It is not a matter of will, it is a matter of conditioned response used by life to increase odds of survival. To be clear, responsibility is not something that a self has. It is merely a condition present in life that drives behaviors supporting life.
And give some examples from your current experience.
Example 1: While writing the above, I took a sip of coffee without any intention to do so. Yet only became aware of that after already pulling the mug up to my face and starting to sip. The brain masks over this gap in awareness. It's just accepted that it was "my" choice. But if I look for any memory of choice to sip the coffee, there is none. But that's an easy one, because often there is a memory of intention. So lets try again, except this time I have an intention to sip the coffee. But do I really? Where did that intention come from? Looking closely, it's just another thing that popped in, something that I became aware of after the intention had already been apparently chosen. And now I just became aware that the intention has been cancelled and no sip of coffee will be taken. Again, it just popped in. None of those choices were made by a "me", they were just recognized after they had already been made. On that note, a sip of coffee was just taken. And it was just recognized that the body automatically takes a sip of coffee after every paragraph written.

Example 2: Last night as I was cooking, I put my hand on the handle of a hot cast iron pan (not realizing it was hot). The hand immediately pulled away, before I was even aware that the pan was hot. There was no choice about it, and it certainly saved my hand! This is a commonly known instant reaction, just the body protecting itself. But it occurred that this is also a good description for how there really is no free will, just thoughts about what has already happened, carrying a "my choice" label (even if we recognize instant reaction for what it is). Biologically, instant reaction is something different in terms of the speed at which it works, but the process as it relates to lack of free will is essentially the same. We become aware of what's been chosen, we don't make choices.

Example 3: When going for a walk this morning, the plan was to try and be in the moment and observe nature. What happened instead? Thinking about this response written here. This was only realized after getting back from the walk. Walking happened, but nothing was seen. Why is that? Because the brain was focused on its primary purpose, protecting the body. Coming up with this response during the walk meant more time was left to finish work, thus more money made, thus more fulfillment of responsibility to family, thus increased odds of survival. It's all just happening on it's own, and when noticed, quite fun to watch!

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Re: Understanding but not really seeing

Postby happening » Thu May 26, 2016 5:24 pm

A correction to the 3rd example written directly above. Mental energy must have been low, as I think that "survival" thing was taken a bit too far there and reads a bit silly on reading it again. Maybe everything that happens with the body is aimed at that in some form or another. But in this case, more likely it's just because the next thing scheduled after the walk was send a reply here. :) But still a good example of how we're not in control of anything.

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Re: Understanding but not really seeing

Postby Ilona » Thu May 26, 2016 7:21 pm

Nice, thank you!

There is nothing wrong with thinking and describing what you feel is true. It's always lovely to read words coming from fresh seeing!

Can you say with a big fat YES, it's clear that separate self/I is an illusion?
If no, what is it that still needs to be examined?
How does it feel to answer this?


Sending love
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http://ilonaciunaite.com/book

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Re: Understanding but not really seeing

Postby happening » Thu May 26, 2016 9:28 pm

Can you say with a big fat YES, it's clear that separate self/I is an illusion?
So long as it's not asked first thing in the morning, a definite YES for this one. It is clear. Is it obvious at all times? Of course not, but there's also never been that expectation. The illusion can be seen through whenever looked for, and that feels like the key.
If no, what is it that still needs to be examined?
There is nothing more than needs to be examined.
How does it feel to answer this?
Major feelings of gratitude for you and all that you are doing. Some sadness that our conversation looks like it might be coming to an end, as I've really enjoyed it and will miss you and this conversation.

Beyond the above, all that can be found is a complete emotionless blank, nothing, nobody home. But it's not an uncomfortable blank, it's just blank. Not fully understood, but looking closer, maybe blank is a pause, seeking seems to be over, and a journey is ahead in exploring all that's been seen, and yet to be seen. Looking forward to that elusive cosmic joke, but also don't want any spoilers... it will come when its ready.

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Re: Understanding but not really seeing

Postby Ilona » Fri May 27, 2016 7:52 pm

Wonderful! Delightful.
We don't have to stop talking, there are Facebook groups for LU members that completed the process, there is another part of forum that will open for you when your name turns blue. There is much to explore and sometimes it's really helpful to have support. You know :)

Welcome to fresh way of perceiving life!

Much love
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Re: Understanding but not really seeing

Postby happening » Sat May 28, 2016 12:34 am

We don't have to stop talking, there are Facebook groups for LU members that completed the process, there is another part of forum that will open for you when your name turns blue. There is much to explore and sometimes it's really helpful to have support. You know :)
Thanks, that's great! So there is nothing to be sad about then. I will look to see if I can find that group you are talking about on Facebook too.
Welcome to fresh way of perceiving life!
Thanks so much! There are no words to express my appreciation, so I'll just keep saying thank you. Thank you!

That blank I mentioned earlier now also seems to be recognized as a quiet mind, or at least a lot quieter than before. Thank you again. :)


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