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Some help would be fantastic!

Posted: Thu May 12, 2016 4:54 pm
by marcel2
What brings you to Liberation Unleashed?
I am incredibly curious about this stuff! I loved the book (Gateless Gatecrashers) and wanna try out this method. It feels like it could be very exciting!

What are you looking for? What do you expect from this?

I don't know actually, whatever is! It's like this an itch or something. A feeling that I ("I") am almost "getting" it, whatever it is... Glimpses of something I can't quite put into words. I wanna get rid of that "itch": my body is ready!

What is your background in terms of seeking and inquiry?
I've been meditating every day for almost two years. Never been into the "crystals and incense" parts of the spiritual (so to speak). Drawn to skepticism (Sam Harris was the one that got me to start meditating). I like some zen, some advaita; jed mckenna is all right, love Alan Watts, like Adyashanti and Ug Krishnamurti. When I first started to get into this stuff I was mainly interested in "equanimity" and "happiness", now I'm getting more and more into this "truth" thing... I think. but of course I also want less suffering ;)

How ready are you to question your beliefs about who you are and see the truth no matter what? On a scale from one to ten (ten being most ready). 11

Re: Some help would be fantastic!

Posted: Sun May 15, 2016 7:23 am
by Ilona
Hi Marcel.

Welcome to the forum.
We can have a chat and see where it takes you. My advice for you is to write every day, this is your process.

Let's see if you can identify the itch, what is it precisely, that you are itching for? What should be different? What is it that you expect should happen? What is not enough?

Please answer in full, as honest as possible. Let the journey on LU forum begin.

Kind regards

Re: Some help would be fantastic!

Posted: Mon May 16, 2016 12:49 pm
by marcel2
Hello Ilona, thanks for the reply!

"The itch" is a bit hard to describe, I don't really have a good language for this but it's the feeling of almost "getting" something, like I see something in the corner of my eye but can't "see it" when I turn to look. The itch comes from wanting to "see" that (whatever it is).

I feel like I'm in some kind of limbo, where old truths (career goals etc) has lost a lot of their power, while I still have a lot of "I"/"me" thoughts that creep up on me but when examined becomes unintelligible. "I really want that" followed by "would anything really change if I got that (money, fame etc)?", answered by "no, I would still be where I am now". Because I know that the times I've gotten "that" it hasn't really changed that much. So this is an intellectual understanding, as is my belief that the self is an illusion. But I can't really see/feel that intellectual truth. Am I making any sense?

I want to be done with this "me"-ness that attaches itself to experience, that colors it. I can't really believe in it any more yet it's still there! Also, this liberation thing seems like something of an adventure. I honestly don't know what to expect... Less of a particular kind of suffering; the boring loops of me-thinking, the fear of certain future events. I guess I want more of the experience tasted when the me-thought is at it's weakest. Wow, It's hard to put this into words!


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Re: Some help would be fantastic!

Posted: Mon May 16, 2016 1:53 pm
by Ilona
Thank you very much for the answer. Looks that you are ripe and ready for the adventure.
You say "I want to be done with me-ness"
Can you look, what is the first I and what it the me that appears in this sentence?
What does the word I refer to?
If i asked you to touch the I with the finger, try it now, where does the finger land?
How do you know that there is I?
How is this I experienced?

Take your time with these questions and don't answer from what you read, heard or leaned in the past. Simply look at your imediate experience and describe what is being seen now.

Sending love

Re: Some help would be fantastic!

Posted: Tue May 17, 2016 12:54 pm
by marcel2
Before I forget: thanks so much for taking the time and doing this!

Hmm... tricky tricky this. The "me", in reference to the "me-ness", is the attachment of the feeling of "I" that attaches itself to thoughts, feelings etc. the "I" that "wants to be done" however... when I think of "I" random autobiographical data appears; thoughts of my body, the body's place in space. If I'm trying to point with my finger at the "I" all I can really "physically" try to touch is the word, in the space somewhere in front of my head. it's like I can "see" the I-trigger, but while seeing it it's just a word. if I try to unpack what it means then all the triggered stuff rushes in.

My knowledge of "I" is that it appears seemingly at random, like "I did this and that", and if I analyze the "I" the triggering happens. so I guess something happens in the mind - a thought, a feeling etc, and then the "I" or "me-ness" follows (or is attached), which then triggers the unraveling of the random "I"-facts (and by random I don't mean totally random; certain thoughts and feelings are more common than others).

Re: Some help would be fantastic!

Posted: Tue May 17, 2016 2:02 pm
by Ilona
would you say that i is a sensation? does it come and go? when is it noticed the most, in what situations?
is that sensations something that thinks, feels and does action?
describe what you find in your experience.

Re: Some help would be fantastic!

Posted: Wed May 18, 2016 11:30 am
by marcel2
yes, I think sensation is a pretty good description. I guess it comes and goes, since I don't notice the I-thought every waking moment. I notice it the most in regards to more "abstract" thoughts, particularly about the future. it works a bit like this: some negative thought (usually, but can be positive as well) arises, followed by feeling of anxiousness (if it's negative) and the I-thought attaching itself, triggering other thought patterns anchored to the I. sometimes the I-thought does not manifest in the same way, and the thought just passes by.
sometimes it feels like it's the sensation that thinks, feel and does action, sometimes it doesn't. or maybe not that it feels like it, but more that it is somehow standing in the background of the feeling, thinking and doing action

Re: Some help would be fantastic!

Posted: Wed May 18, 2016 5:09 pm
by Ilona
Well yes, there is an assumption that there must be an I that does, thinks and feels. Let's question that.

As you described in your post, mostly I is felt with a negative emotion. Does that mean that sensation of resistance, frustration is an entity? Or is it a sensation that comes and goes? Don't think about it, but rather have a look, get annoyed by something and find out what is actually happening.

Find the sensation of being, just plain being aware of being aware.
Do you have to do anything to be aware? Is it something that is always on? Or you have to manage being. In the words I AM, is there I doing being?

What do you notice?

Sending love

Re: Some help would be fantastic!

Posted: Thu May 19, 2016 12:58 pm
by marcel2
I don't actually annoy easily these days, but I think I managed to get a little bit annoyed (when in doubt: read something political!): I would say it's a sensation that comes and goes, definitely. I am not sure what "entity" refers to though?

No, awareness is always on, no effort needed.
regarding "I AM": sometimes I conceptualize "I" in this context to be the same as awareness: awareness is, "I" am that awareness.
but a lot of the time I backslide into the "I"-thoughts. it's like I have two different "I":s, one that is the awareness noticing the "I"-though, but that "forget" that it's observing, and the other being the I that attaches itself... it's difficult to explain

Re: Some help would be fantastic!

Posted: Thu May 19, 2016 3:25 pm
by Ilona
Thank you for answers, good stuff.
Let's have a closer look at this I as a label. it is the language that creates the subject. look at mind as a labeling machine. it labels all that comes into the focus. look around the room slowly and notice, how certain objects are named, some stories pop up, descriptions, evaluations etc.
notice, that where the focus goes labelling follows.

then have a look at these statements:
I sit,
I breathe,
i read this text,
i hear sounds
I witness sounds...

what is the i in there? is there a sitter, breather, reader, hearer? is there a witness? is I awareness? or a label?
is I something that moves attention or attention is moving by itself? focus on focusing, is there I doing focusing?

write what you learn from this exercise.

sending love

Re: Some help would be fantastic!

Posted: Fri May 20, 2016 2:26 pm
by marcel2
When I read the statements at first they have this "generic" quality. "I sit" for example, turns into something I would tell somebody else about the activity of me sitting.
when I try to focus on the experience of the meaning of the sentence, they seem to turn very arbitrary; the words "I breathe" seem to have nothing to do with the actual sensation of breathing. when I truly focus on the breathing, there is only breathing, when focus on the sounds only hearing... then when focusing stops I (re-)emerges in the past tense: "I listened", "I read that text". since the I-thought doesn't seem to be present at all times, but awareness is, I and awareness cannot be the same thing. sometimes it feels like there is a witness, someone standing behind it all, watching. but I cannot make sense of this, because when I look there is only the witnessing that is awareness.

it feels like "I" moves attention, like it's the spark that sets everything in motion. but then when I focus on the focusing, there seems to be no room for the I.

Re: Some help would be fantastic!

Posted: Fri May 20, 2016 3:45 pm
by Ilona
Beautiful!
Let's take the next step in the exploration and examine how the I works as part of language.
There is a blogpost there and an exercise. Do it here, or on paper. http://markedeternal.blogspot.co.uk/2012/05/labels.html

Tell me, what is the effect of different way to describe what is happening on how you feel about what is happening.

Sending love

Re: Some help would be fantastic!

Posted: Sat May 21, 2016 2:33 pm
by marcel2
I've done the exercise but have no time to answer today! I will tomorrow though!


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Re: Some help would be fantastic!

Posted: Sun May 22, 2016 12:38 pm
by marcel2
I didn't experience any huge difference between the modes of labeling to be honest, other than that the I-labeling in the first exercise felt increasingly redundant (especially thinking back to it when doing the second part). what I did feel in both cases was the gap between description and experience, and how the description/labeling felt a bit "silly" in that it really didn't add anything, like I'm describing a painting to someone standing beside me (they'd be better served just looking for themselves!). it felt like I was doing a very poor description of the sensations to myself, and a lot of the time those descriptions where completely incomprehensible without the actual sensation (I feel an "energy sensation"/"tingling").

Re: Some help would be fantastic!

Posted: Sun May 22, 2016 12:50 pm
by Ilona
Nice! Now you see that description is secondary, it's happening along experience, but it does not touch experience. It's a story about experience.

Description is not necessary for the experience and description using I is not making I into a doer.

Write what comes up when you let this thought in-
There is no I, none as in zero. There is no self, separated from whole life, in charge of tiny piece of life. There is no avatar inside the body moving it. There is movement, there is being aware, there is being (verb).

Write what stands out or is resisted.

Sending love