Some help would be fantastic!

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marcel2
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Re: Some help would be fantastic!

Postby marcel2 » Mon Jun 13, 2016 8:18 pm

let's see... the "I" is a part of the thinking, but is not the thinker, at least not the whole story, since it is obviously being observed by "something" (or rather, is just observed)
there is only seeing and hearing. the I that is the "problem" is not doing this.
hmm.. can it get or lose anything. very interesting... what would it mean if it "lost" anything, or "gained" anything... in what way would this manifest, even in theory...? the "I" that "loses" anything is tied to fear of experiencing unpleasantness, and the I that "gains" hopes to experience pleasantness. when examined closely the "I" in many cases is connected to the fantasy of future pleasant or unpleasant experience, or in (at least for me) rarer cases of either memories of past pleasant or unpleasant experiences. but maybe a lot of those experiences unpleasantness or pleasantness is actually themselves connected to the "I" in those moments... how much of that is entangled in the same fantasies?
rambling! but it's very true that writing out loud helps a lot! I'll keep looking

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Ilona
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Re: Some help would be fantastic!

Postby Ilona » Tue Jun 14, 2016 11:39 am

Let's see... the "I" is a part of the thinking, but is not the thinker, at least not the whole story, since it is obviously being observed by "something" (or rather, is just observed)
look now for the observer, is there a witness?
what would be lost if there really is no i as separate entity?
how would everything look? imagine, there is no i at all, what's different?

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marcel2
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Re: Some help would be fantastic!

Postby marcel2 » Tue Jun 14, 2016 3:42 pm

"the witness" is somewhat felt, but seem to be a combination of witnessing + fragments of "I"-thought. it is really only witnessing
what would be lost... nothing it feels like, it's mainly annoying at the moment!
the difference would be less fear, less boring thought loops... cause what would really sustain them. that's what can be imagined at the moment at least.

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Re: Some help would be fantastic!

Postby Ilona » Tue Jun 14, 2016 6:43 pm

Less fear? It's the thoughts about future that generate fear. Thinking about what if this happens scenarios. Is it I that is thinking those thoughts?
Can you find fear in the story about past? (I mean sensation of fear, does it arise while thinking about the past?)

What is that sustains the loops now? Describe in detail.

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marcel2
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Re: Some help would be fantastic!

Postby marcel2 » Tue Jun 14, 2016 10:45 pm

no, the thoughts just happens, but without belief in "I" what would fear future? it feels like the "I" is the spider in the web, the thing that sustains the loop, the eye of the storm so to speak. but of course it cannot be pin-pointed.
no, the past is not a problem at all, other than in regards to future ("why didn't I do x so that y might not happen?" etc)
but there is not much fear though. these last few days there's been mostly the feeling of slight frustration and being annoyed, wanting to scream "show yourself!" to the "I" that knocks on the door, but is nowhere to be found when opening...

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Re: Some help would be fantastic!

Postby Ilona » Wed Jun 15, 2016 7:02 am

What is that believes in I?
What is the glue of belief made of?
If there is no I already, what is that fears future?

Can you ask this question, then observe and notice what exactly happens and write to me

Is there I?


Sending love
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marcel2
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Re: Some help would be fantastic!

Postby marcel2 » Wed Jun 15, 2016 9:05 pm

"I"-thought appears, and is maybe not "believed" but noticed, taken for granted as some sort of signpost. upon closer inspection seems empty. rinse and repeat it seems
what fears the future, at this moment I cannot answer... it seems now that some thoughts about future simply arise sometimes, sometimes triggering emotions. and sometimes emotions happen, looking for the I-thought
"Is there I?" - when I really look it is "only" language, triggering concepts. the question "but who is watching then?" arises again and again. feeling of being "something" that looks at/for the "I". again and again it's just looking at the letter "I", then having to focus on what it is supposed to label, and then the unpacking of the associated concepts (body, memories etc.) that is then halted when the pointlessness in doing so becomes apparent. like testing myself if I know the answer to what the "I" usually means.
the "old" I-thought is certainly not perceived as "solid" as earlier!

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Re: Some help would be fantastic!

Postby Ilona » Thu Jun 16, 2016 7:53 am

Good stuff, nice to hear that I thoughts are not perceived to be as solid.
When you say I now, what does the word refer to?

When focusing on the sense of being, aliveness, presence, does that sense need a label to identify with?
Is there a who?

so close..
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marcel2
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Re: Some help would be fantastic!

Postby marcel2 » Thu Jun 16, 2016 10:35 pm

At the moment unsure what "I" actually refers to... apart from the usual stories (body-owner etc). I keep coming back to just "staring" at the thought-word

no, the label drops away when really focusing on those things, then reemerges, looking for something to attach itself to.
is there a who? there's sometimes a feeling of a "watcher" that is sometimes imagined to be "behind" looking, behind presence.

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Re: Some help would be fantastic!

Postby Ilona » Fri Jun 17, 2016 2:33 pm

Let's look closer at the feeling of being a watcher. Is that feeling the watcher? Can a feeling observe anything?

Compare that feeling of watcher to the feeling of breather. The body breathes, in and out, and you can consciously breathe too, focusing on breathing. When you do that, do you become a breather? Or a noticer of breath? Or a focuser?
Does body breathe without you watching it?

Can you see how labelling creates an assumption of a doer?
Do you become sitter, reader, typer, seer, hearer, noticer, witness, or these labels are not necessary for all those actions and events to happen?

What do you find to be true in your experience that is happening right this moment?
Sending love
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marcel2
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Re: Some help would be fantastic!

Postby marcel2 » Fri Jun 17, 2016 4:14 pm

no... it's a feeling that sometimes accompanies the looking.

when feeling the breathing there's more of a sense of breath arising in a "space", and the "watcher"-feeling is associated with that which is "looking" out at the breath, noticing it.

hmm, can I see how the labeling creates an assumption of a doer. I'm not sure about this one if I'm honest!
the labels seems to be unnecessary in those cases, that is for sure. I'm sitting, I'm typing: what is the purpose of those labels (apart from communicating of course). they don't seem to add anything, and in fact say very little...

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Re: Some help would be fantastic!

Postby Ilona » Fri Jun 17, 2016 9:26 pm

Yes, they tell very little! But somehow attention is on the labels more than on what is going on besides thinking. That's what we are getting at. Concepts and stories are fine to be here, but the seriousness and solidity of words, believing in concepts can make life unnecessarily difficult.

Now have a closer look: find the sensation of watching, find the sensation of watched. Is it the same sensation with two different labels or two sensations?
Is the seer separate from the seen?
Is there a gap between experiencer and experienced?
Is anything outside of life looking at it, or looking at life is part of life happening?
Haha, words.. We need words for communicating. But they are not needed for being. Can you see that?

Sending love
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marcel2
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Re: Some help would be fantastic!

Postby marcel2 » Sat Jun 18, 2016 1:15 am

"watched" is really just "watching" with an add-on when examined closer and no, the seer and seen cannot be separated; a lot of redundancies it seems!
the gap seems to be inserted when labeling occurs; "the experiencer" pops up and claims ownership. but what is "he"? another label it seems...
it just seems to be happening indeed... if there's anything outside I don't know about it (how could I?)
yes, the words are not strictly needed, but they may still be a nuisance, perhaps. still some playing catch-up it seems. these last days the mind has been labeling and "de-labeling": the "I" arising and automatically being questioned, and then being exhausted of all the looping. the line between "me" and "the world" are blurry at times, the mind scrambling for ways to conceptualize and quantify experience.

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Re: Some help would be fantastic!

Postby Ilona » Sat Jun 18, 2016 10:55 am

right, good stuff.
zoom in on that blurry line. what exactly is there? where is the line between here and there? are sounds heard here or there? inside or outside? are colours and shapes seen in me or in out there?
are there separate selves in other people?
is an entity inside this body behind the eyes looking out? what happens when you look at what is looking?


sending love
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marcel2
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Re: Some help would be fantastic!

Postby marcel2 » Sat Jun 18, 2016 4:30 pm

can't seem to find the line. sounds are heard, shapes seen, that is all that is certain
they seem to think so at least!
no, such an entity makes little sense actually if I'm true to experience. body seems to appear in the "entity" etc.
trying to look at what's looking, well it's only looking really


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