Some help would be fantastic!

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Ilona
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Re: Some help would be fantastic!

Postby Ilona » Thu Jun 02, 2016 10:05 am

oh yeah, what is that me that takes ownership over body, thoughts and experience?
can it be that there really is nothing there?
just an old story in the head?

there is an assumption that there must be a me at the center of experience. but look for yourself, where is it?
is sound heard here or there?
where is the line between here and there?
is there a line between inside and outside in experience?
where is the line between me and out there?

check it and tell me what you find.
Truth realized will set you free.
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marcel2
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Re: Some help would be fantastic!

Postby marcel2 » Thu Jun 02, 2016 3:29 pm

it seems like a story in the old head. i think the "inside"/"outside" has to do with the observation that "my" thoughts, experiences only appear to me, not anyone on the "outside". only "I" can move my body. or is it just moving by itself...
cannot find any centre, no
sound is heard... is all that is certain
right now fingers move typing, sound from outside (thoughts arising, arguing over label - probably a buzz saw from a construction site). the sound appears and so does the movement and thought, it's hard to draw the distinction between thought appearing and sound appearing. the difference being that the sound is assumed to be possibly and probably experienced by others, while thought is not. but others may experience same thoughts like me, how to know? "that's a buzz saw". the sound may or may not be experienced simultaneously, the thought may appear or not appear simultaneously

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Re: Some help would be fantastic!

Postby Ilona » Fri Jun 03, 2016 7:48 am

Hi marcel, thank you for reply. This time please have a look and answer each question precisely. Your answer came from thinking, I ask you to look. Where is the line?


there is an assumption that there must be a me at the center of experience. but look for yourself, where is it?
is sound heard here or there?
where is the line between here and there?
is there a line between inside and outside in experience?
where is the line between me and out there?


Focus please.

Sending love
Truth realized will set you free.
http://ilonaciunaite.com

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Re: Some help would be fantastic!

Postby marcel2 » Fri Jun 03, 2016 1:02 pm

yes, sorry. having a bit trouble understanding the "here and there" distinction. I

the "me" when looking is associated with the heart/chest area. when more powerful positive or negativ emotions are felt, they are felt in the chest area. that is the "center" that is assumed
sound is just heard, I don't know how to explain it better.
I'm really looking for a line between outside and inside, having a hard time to see any clear distinction.
no, I cannot seem to find a good line in experience, at least now, when I'm looking
the "me" is associated with certain types of feeling, making a sort of center point. but where it ends and "out there" begins... I'm having a hard time seeing.

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Re: Some help would be fantastic!

Postby Ilona » Fri Jun 03, 2016 1:07 pm

that's the whole point, there is no such line.

here is an exercise for you. get out in nature somewhere and sit for a little while observing the movement of totality. see how everything moves and wiggles, how nothing is still, but ever changing. notice trees, clouds, grass, animals if there are any. notice the movement of the body. see how thoughts, sensations, feelings come and go too.

is there an orchestrator that is in charge of movement?
is there anything separate from the movement of totality?
are you separate from nature/ life?

write what you learn from this exercise.

sending love
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http://ilonaciunaite.com

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marcel2
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Re: Some help would be fantastic!

Postby marcel2 » Mon Jun 06, 2016 9:11 pm

no, no orchestrator could be found.

there where moments of feeling of "non-separation", it's hard to put into words. moments of "just looking"/"just being" before the mind tried to conceptualise, "box in" experience. then again relaxing into focus on the "now", followed by mind rushing in again etc.
am I separate from nature/life? I don't know how that would be possible!

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Re: Some help would be fantastic!

Postby Ilona » Tue Jun 07, 2016 7:46 am

Lovely!

Can you find the sense of separatedness and look closer at it? Which sensation is that? Where in the body is it felt? Is that sensation separate from the flow of experience? Does arrival of this sensation mean that there is a separate being experiencing life or that a sensation + label is being experienced?

When next one you feel separatedness, have a look, what is separate? Perhaps it's a sensation that can be called some other name, like anxiety, frustration, resistance, maybe fear? How do you know that the sensation is separatedness? What informs about that?

Is sensation of separatedness something that comes up when you are in a happy state?

Write down what you notice.

Sending love
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http://ilonaciunaite.com

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Re: Some help would be fantastic!

Postby marcel2 » Tue Jun 07, 2016 3:59 pm

the feeling of separation I'd say mainly occur after being totally lost in thought, and then "coming back" to not being lost in thought, it feels like the world has been closed of/boxed in when lost in thought.
the sense of separation.... what is separate indeed... maybe the labeling of "separate" because of certain sensations/thoughts are themselves labeled with "I" or "mine". if it's "mine" it has to be "separate". this is just thinking of course. when I'm looking today I'm having a hard time seeing this "separatedness". I'll keep watching!
happy states these last days has been when feeling non-separatedness

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Re: Some help would be fantastic!

Postby Ilona » Tue Jun 07, 2016 6:23 pm

That's wonderful to hear that last few days are happy days!
Yes, keep looking, what is separate from what indeed.
When you look at your close people, are they separate selves? Is there you and them?
In thought stories yes, there are different characters, living different lives, having different experiences. But have a look at other people what are they without stories?
Is there a true story? One that does not change depending on mood and who tells it?
Is there a real story about marcel? Or is it created on a spot, spontaneously depending on situation and listener?
Is the voice in the head always telling truth? And what is listening to the voice in the head telling stories?


Lots for you to play with. Enjoy :)
Sending love
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http://ilonaciunaite.com

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Re: Some help would be fantastic!

Postby marcel2 » Thu Jun 09, 2016 1:59 pm

very tricky this. the separation between me and them is that I feel like I have access to certain thoughts, feelings etc that they have not, and vice versa. what are they without stories... I don't know. will have to keep looking
no, there is no true story, even though I sometimes assume that there is a "true" story somewhere out there, like an event in history that all books has gotten slightly wrong, but that there is an real event behind the mistakes.
the story does seem to change from moment to moment, like the same events having a negative spin at noon and a positive in the evening.
no, it seems to be no reference to what is supposed to be the truth, since the voice is saying very contradictory things from one moment to the next.
what is listening indeed.. hmm.

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Ilona
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Re: Some help would be fantastic!

Postby Ilona » Fri Jun 10, 2016 3:41 pm

so we have this voice talking, spinning stories, describing events, judging and wanting. if you look at animals, do they seem to have such a voice too? how about babies before they learn to talk? is this voice/ so called mind, separate from the whole? does it know the truth? can it know the truth? does this voice make things happen? or is something that is happening along the way of everything else ( sense perceptions, feelings, emotions)
when you look for the I that is apparently talking, what do you find?
if you ask this question:
Is there i?
what shows up?

here is something for you to explore. write what you notice!
sending love
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http://ilonaciunaite.com

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Re: Some help would be fantastic!

Postby marcel2 » Sat Jun 11, 2016 5:45 pm

the dog I hang out with sometimes doesn''t seem to do that much thinking, that's for sure!
"is the voice in the head always telling the truth", this question really stuck with me. a thought arose last night - "don't have to believe this" in response to some other thinking... after that moment thoughts felt very "surface-level", just a bit of conversation that didn't actually mean that much. how could thoughts be truth, when they constantly change, constantly contradict...? does the voice make things happen? - it's hard to tell if the voice triggers certain emotions or if they just arise simultaneously... but sometimes thought A trigger emotional response B, and sometimes not. the causation might just be a weak correlation... interesting
I also had some random thoughts about the future and it was very clear in that instant that it was just a repeating of a familiar bit of language, separated from any "real" connotations. at the moment it seems only to be talking, the "I" mostly feels like a part of sentence. I'll keep looking!

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Re: Some help would be fantastic!

Postby Ilona » Sun Jun 12, 2016 7:36 am

Nice! It's good to notice that thoughts do not have to be taken so seriously!
Thoughts talk about other thoughts, using thoughts for reference. Thoughts define themselves through the already known concepts. It's a conceptual castle. We believe in future, as if it's real and then thoughts trigger sensations and sensations trigger more thoughts.
Imagination is beautiful, but when it's misused it can hurt.

Do you have any burning questions?
Is there any doubt about the emptiness of concepts?

Sending love.
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Re: Some help would be fantastic!

Postby marcel2 » Mon Jun 13, 2016 3:14 pm

is still feels like there is some part of "I"/"me" that is being clung to, like an annoying fly buzzing around, trying to look for what is bothering and finding nothing! noticed anxiety earlier today, anxiety without any thought, just buzzing around, looking for a story! got terribly annoyed! at what? at who? so silly yet...
fear that I might "get" the emptiness of concepts as another concept! don't know if I've really seen through it, or just rationalize it... a bit of confusion these last couple of days.just having a hard time formulating question! feels like something is missing, something being overlooked, but don't know why that is, exactly who feels that something is missing, and what is missing from what, what is lacking as opposed to what.

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Re: Some help would be fantastic!

Postby Ilona » Mon Jun 13, 2016 3:26 pm

Sounds murky! Keep looking.
Don't think, just look- all experience is simply happening, it's always been this way. You are always aware. In other words, the presence in this moment is always on. See what is happening besides thinking, let thinking run as it does without paying too much attention to the commentary.
Is there I thinking?
Is there I seeing and hearing?
Is there I that can get anything or loose?

Write more, writing helps mind to focus.
Truth realized will set you free.
http://ilonaciunaite.com


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