Denis, please post here

[Chris]

No, was trying to say I don't know of the bio-chemical changes via direct experience. It's only intellectual based on lots of evidence.

How do you know of this evidence? Have you experienced it directly? My point is, EVERYTHING is conceptual expect direct experience. When I ask if you can make a true statement solely based on direct experience, I am trying to get you to question the reliability and believabilty of the content of thoughts. If direct experience is the only real thing, what does that tell you about the contents of thoughts?

Based on direct experience, there is no 'me' but I am still attached to the mind/body especially when feeling down. Perhaps it's just conditioning and habit and will gradually subside.

If you do not exist, how is there a you that is still attached to the body/mind? There are feelings, there are thoughts but they just are. There has never been a self and these feelings and thoughts have always been here. Just because you know the truth that you do not exist and there is no owner of thoughts and feelings, it does not mean they will magically go away. However, now that the brain has seen through the illusion, why would the illusion of ownership and doership be believed any longer?

I am looking for a 'me' and it always goes back to the mind/body experience. I am watching for how thoughts manifest and I see they just arise from nothing, fast but not instantly. There is a nearly steady stream of thought. When I watch, another thought arises, "I am watching." Then the thought: "Do I exist?" Then the thought: "No, mind/body are many events and experiences occurring constantly. The 'I' is only an image of 'dennis' (i.e., santa claus)."

The brain is a labeling and sorting machine. It functions in a certain way. If a question is asked, it uses it's stored data to try to come up with an answer. It ALWAYS will, it is a thought machine. It's not when will you get the right answer from the brain, it's when will the questions finally drop? You've seen how thoughts work, you see the illusion of self, what else do you need to see?

[Denis]

Very good question Chris. 'What else do I need to see?'

Nothing. It is time I stop looking!? I love to analyze. I was an Aerospace Analyst and professor. Lots of conditioning and curiosity to ask how and why. This has been a challenge to find a 'right answer.' If I stop looking, what will I do? :-)

Don't answer that. I don't have your patience for your work. I know there is no 'I' to have patience. Maybe this entity could find the patience.

I'll write more tomorrow after I absorb your last question. It is an excellent one.

thanks,
dennis

[Chris]

Very good question Chris. 'What else do I need to see?'

Yes, it is!

Nothing. It is time I stop looking!? I love to analyze. I was an Aerospace Analyst and professor. Lots of conditioning and curiosity to ask how and why. This has been a challenge to find a 'right answer.' If I stop looking, what will I do? :-)

You are not analyzing. Analysis is happening. There is NOONE doing it. You are not an Aerospace Analyst and professor. YOU DO NOT EXIST! You can't stop looking because you do not exist. Does attention and importance have to be given to questions that pop up incessently? Is there an answer, or is there just a stream of endless questions?

Don't answer that. I don't have your patience for your work. I know there is no 'I' to have patience. Maybe this entity could find the patience.

There is no entity that can find anything. Patience may or may not occur. There is NO CONTROL! Calling it "this entity" instead of "I" still assumes a controller, THERE ISN"T ANY!! LOOK!!!

I'll write more tomorrow after I absorb your last question. It is an excellent one.

Don't absorb, test what I have stated, LOOK!!

Chris :)

[Denis]

Geez. Here I go analyzing again. Maybe I don't know how to look without analysis? Maybe it's synonymous for me? "Thinking" not LOOKING? When you say 'look,' does that mean with the senses? How else can we look?

When I look, I see, feel and hear a body (maybe smell it too). So the mind interprets that as seeing, feeling, etc. That is happening to the body. Are you saying my mind is going too far and interpreting that as happening 'to' me? Perhaps but as soon as I recognize that, my mind says 'no, there is no me; it's just happening.'

LOOKING will happen today :-)
denis

[Chris]

Geez. Here I go analyzing again. Maybe I don't know how to look without analysis? Maybe it's synonymous for me? "Thinking" not LOOKING? When you say 'look,' does that mean with the senses? How else can we look?

Do you exist outside of thought?

When I look, I see, feel and hear a body (maybe smell it too). So the mind interprets that as seeing, feeling, etc. That is happening to the body. Are you saying my mind is going too far and interpreting that as happening 'to' me? Perhaps but as soon as I recognize that, my mind says 'no, there is no me; it's just happening.'

There is a body in that can be sensed without interpretation/thoughts about it. Is there a "me" without interpretation of seeing, hearing and feeling? There is experience happening, is it happening to "you", or is it just happening?

You are right at the gate!!

[Denis]

Hi Chris,

Have been LOOKING today and ignoring the analysis. Events are just happening, No 'me'. Liberating to let go of control, to know there really is no me to control events. They are going to flow and be experienced.

Have to make a judgement based on thoughts here: It has been a very good day :-)

thanks a ton,
dennis

[Chris]

Hello Dennis,

Here you go!


1) Is there a 'me', at all, anywhere, in any way, shape or form? Was there ever?

2) Explain in detail what the illusion of separate self is, when it starts and how it works.

3) How does it feel to see this?

4) How would you describe it to somebody who has never heard about this illusion.

5) What was the last bit that pushed you over, made you look?

Please answer in as much detail as you can from your own experience. :)

[Denis]

Hi Chris,

Enjoyed the chat. Am still impressed with the patience you show.

1) Is there a 'me', at all, anywhere, in any way, shape or form? Was there ever?

No, absolutely no me. Have been watching the last two days and am so convinced that I know there never was a 'me.'

2) Explain in detail what the illusion of separate self is, when it starts and how it works.

Separate self is an imagined concept. Images of identity change daily but the mind has become attached to the images. It is unreal because a mind cannot find it. We look and feel for it but only find a body, a body that is real without the concept of self so it is not self. Without layered thoughts there is no self. Thoughts are real but the content that envisions a separate self is not. The content is a fantasy.

It began before I can remember. I have no direct experience of it beginning but I can see it formulated by the conditioning of babies and toddlers. "You are so...,such a...."

3) How does it feel to see this?

Feels great! No revelation but a relief from trying to control the self and events. For two days I have enjoyed conditions just as they are. Not wishing something were different. Just watching and appreciating nature and other people.

4) How would you describe it to somebody who has never heard about this illusion.

It's not easy, is it? I can easily explain the second law of thermodynamics but 'no self' is a challenge. I would not even attempt to explain it unless someone showed an interest. A cop out would be to e-mail a link to the "Gateless Gate Crashers." But I may very well do that.

Explanation scenario:
LOOK for your 'self' and tell me what you find. Likely response is "body and mind sitting here." Is the body real? "Yes." Is it 'you?' "Yes." Would 'you' exist without thought? "No, I'd be dead." Is the body you? "No". What is the 'self?' "A concept." What produces the concept? "Thought." Are thoughts real? "Yes." Is the content accurate? "Sometimes." Is it real? "No." Do you exist as a separate self? "Yes, I am my soul." Show me the soul. "Well that's not possible." Why? "It's something we can't see." Where does it exist? "Only in the mind." Does it exist without thought? "No." Can it be experienced directly with any of the five senses? "No." Is it real? "It is beyond thought, it is God." Are you God? "No." Where is God? "In heaven." Where is heaven? "In another dimension." Can you find that dimension? "In my mind." LOOK! Tell me what you see right now, without analysis. Just what you find from direct experience. "A body/mind that has concocted a fantasy."

That is my fantasy liberation :-)

5) What was the last bit that pushed you over, made you look?

You suggested LOOKING without analysis. Just LOOK! So I did and that was very cool.

Thank you, Chris and Moonlight. I love your patience and lucid explanations.

dennis

[Chris]

Thank you, Dennis, for hanging in there and not giving up. It's been fun chatting with you! I've added you to the Unleashed group on Facebook. If you have any questions or want to discuss liberation, it's a great resource. Take care and don't be a stranger. If you are interested in working with others to help them now that you are through the "gate", we'd love the help!

Take Care,
Chris

[Denis]

You and Moonlight deserve all the credit for hanging in with me. I will keep in touch and likely 'try' to help. Your work is most important. I'll be gone today but may be back to the computer tonight.

thanks a ton,
denis :-)