Letting go

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Rishi
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Re: Letting go

Postby Rishi » Thu Apr 28, 2016 12:11 am

Dear Bananafish,

I am back from a long and refreshing session of Looking !

Coincidently, the Vipassana retreat I attended was for doing just that. Looking. Looking at the sensations that the thought currents conjured up.

And I am happy to report that I was able to see the transition point between here and now & thought steams. Oh what an experience !!

I could see point where the awareness transitioned from the constricted pathway with distinct emotions that registered themselves via sensations in the body - to TOTAL ease.

Earlier, I used to report based on awareness about either the constricted state(within thought) OR the expansive state (here and now). This time the awareness was so acute that it saw the transition. The discontinuity of awareness as the thought energy dissipated as a whirlpool - sucking the heavy emotions with it. What was left was calm ease. All within a split second. The experience made me laugh and cry at the same time. Because I knew that I can do this whenever want.

How simple it all was ! That is why I couldn't stop laughing. And crying came naturally - maybe because of gratitude.

And then in the night - Awareness was still there as the body slept. Aware of the sleeping body and a floating stream of sensations. This awareness was sharp and awake. I playfully tried to make this sleep but could not. I was awake through the night but woke up refreshed - more than I had ever for a long long time. That waking in sleep continues since then.

I express my gratitude in guiding me through this enquiry right up to the point that that made this experience relevant.

I can now see how all "This" is just awareness. An awareness that is expanding and seeing more and more of "This"

With Regards,
Rishi

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Re: Letting go

Postby Bananafish » Fri Apr 29, 2016 7:57 am

Dear Rishi,

Welcome back from the retreat! :) I'm glad that you got
some insight from the LOOKing during it.

Just a couple of things that I want to ask ...

Because I knew that I can do this whenever want.
Do you intentionally do that?
What is the subject?

Is there a seer of that transition?

And then in the night - Awareness was still there as the body slept. Aware of the sleeping body and a floating stream of sensations. This awareness was sharp and awake. I playfully tried to make this sleep but could not. I was awake through the night but woke up refreshed - more than I had ever for a long long time. That waking in sleep continues since then.

Are body and awareness separate?

Experience is experience, and its remembrance is past ...
just images and thoughts. Just that. My advice is not to compare
anything with the past.



What is the reality of Here and Now?



Can you describe?

I can now see how all "This" is just awareness. An awareness that is expanding and seeing more and more of "This"
Are awareness and "This" separate?
Is awareness a subject, and is there anything to be seen by awareness?

Peace,

Bananafish

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Rishi
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Re: Letting go

Postby Rishi » Fri Apr 29, 2016 5:46 pm

Greetings Bananafish !
Welcome back from the retreat! :) I'm glad that you got
some insight from the LOOKing during it.
Thanks !
Just a couple of things that I want to ask ...
Because I knew that I can do this whenever want.
Do you intentionally do that?
What is the subject?
Is there a seer of that transition?
The seer itself transitions. There is no subject. It is the quality of awareness that I was reporting. Sharp - even when it transitions from the constricted thought to the expanded here and now. Right at the cusp. And this feeling of constriction was more than just inferred due to that - i.e. by the usual contrast of the expansive here and now (which is the usual case).Awareness actually felt it right at the point when the transition into the expansive was happening. Almost both the states at the same time.

But as you said - it is just a memory now. But this experience was dramatic enough so I felt I should report :)
Are body and awareness separate?
Nothing is external to awareness. Including Body.
What is the reality of Here and Now?
Can you describe?
Ease,bliss & ecstatic sensations. Choiceness Awareness.
I can now see how all "This" is just awareness. An awareness that is expanding and seeing more and more of "This"
Are awareness and "This" separate?
Is awareness a subject, and is there anything to be seen by awareness?
They are not when there are no thoughts. They 'appear to' within a thought.

Regards,
Rishi

Bananafish
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Re: Letting go

Postby Bananafish » Sat Apr 30, 2016 1:30 pm

Hi Rishi!
The seer itself transitions. There is no subject. It is the quality of awareness that I was reporting. Sharp - even when it transitions from the constricted thought to the expanded here and now. Right at the cusp. And this feeling of constriction was more than just inferred due to that - i.e. by the usual contrast of the expansive here and now (which is the usual case).Awareness actually felt it right at the point when the transition into the expansive was happening. Almost both the states at the same time.
Can you describe it in a simpler way ... in a way even a child can understand?
What is the "awareness" you've been telling about?

Nothing is external to awareness. Including Body.
What is a body?

Ease,bliss & ecstatic sensations. Choiceness Awareness.
What are suffering, painful sensations, and choice?

Pinch your hand and feel the pain.
Think about painful memories or things you
hate ... something that makes you feel disgusted. Feel that feeling.

Is it Here and Now or not?


They are not when there are no thoughts. They 'appear to' within a thought.
Nice! "Appear to" be ... which isn't actually. Right! :)


Kind regards,

Bananafish

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Rishi
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Re: Letting go

Postby Rishi » Tue May 03, 2016 11:53 pm

Hi Bananafish !

Can you describe it in a simpler way ... in a way even a child can understand?
What is the "awareness" you've been telling about?
Well , first of all I have to assume that this child experientially knows about stillness/ here and now/what is and is not speculating about the concept of awareness from within a thought based existence :)

So to such a child, I will say that the expansive awareness encompasses everything. She may have gotten a glimpse of this awareness when she saw a beautiful mountain or stream or felt love for her mother that caused her to tear up. Everything is that awareness. Even if it doesn't seem so when she is experiencing youtube of thoughts :)

Nothing is external to awareness. Including Body.
What is a body?
Body is the locus of awareness for this bubble that I call me. Aware through Sensations, Colors, Sounds, Smells and Thoughts. Changing color, the bubble darkens up when thoughts reign in. Its boundaries disappear in stilness and merges into expansive awareness.
Ease,bliss & ecstatic sensations. Choiceness Awareness.
What are suffering, painful sensations, and choice?
Painful sensations is part of awareness.
Choice is an action leads to suffering, away from here and now. By choice, the illusion of chooser is created - thereby creating the illusion of duality.
Pinch your hand and feel the pain.
Think about painful memories or things you
hate ... something that makes you feel disgusted. Feel that feeling.
Is it Here and Now or not?
Pain is here and now. Memories are not. The sensations that hate create are real. Memories create thoughts which come with a image and a feeling - most of the time the 'attention' is not on the feeling but on the story of the image - almost like having dinner while watching TV. Dinner being the sensation in the body. If attention is brought to the sensation - here and now - without adding anything to the existing thought story, it causes the thought ripple to settle down - along with the sensation - getting the awareness to the expansive here and now.

This is truly what I say is 'watching the thought' - by 'being' the thought.


With Regards,
Rishi

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Re: Letting go

Postby Bananafish » Wed May 04, 2016 6:06 am

Greetings, Rishi! :)

So to such a child, I will say that the expansive awareness encompasses everything. She may have gotten a glimpse of this awareness when she saw a beautiful mountain or stream or felt love for her mother that caused her to tear up. Everything is that awareness. Even if it doesn't seem so when she is experiencing youtube of thoughts :)
Great!

Body is the locus of awareness for this bubble that I call me. Aware through Sensations, Colors, Sounds, Smells and Thoughts. Changing color, the bubble darkens up when thoughts reign in. Its boundaries disappear in stilness and merges into expansive awareness.
When you say "body is the locus of awareness," are body and awareness two different things?
Is something aware "through" sensations?

Are being aware and sensing different?

Painful sensations is part of awareness.
Choice is an action leads to suffering, away from here and now. By choice, the illusion of chooser is created - thereby creating the illusion of duality.

Is there any chooser in choosing?

Pain is here and now. Memories are not. The sensations that hate create are real. Memories create thoughts which come with a image and a feeling - most of the time the 'attention' is not on the feeling but on the story of the image - almost like having dinner while watching TV. Dinner being the sensation in the body. If attention is brought to the sensation - here and now - without adding anything to the existing thought story, it causes the thought ripple to settle down - along with the sensation - getting the awareness to the expansive here and now.

This is truly what I say is 'watching the thought' - by 'being' the thought.

I might be redundant but please bear with me.

Who attends? Is there a subject that does the attending?


Warmest regards,

Bananafish

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Rishi
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Re: Letting go

Postby Rishi » Thu May 05, 2016 12:06 am

Hello Bananafish !

I think I need to do a recalibration of the words I have been using to describe my experiences.

We have been quite clear about the illusion of 'me' and how it is created within the context of the thought. We had also seen how thoughts are ripples that take the 'attention' away from here and now. Also of the origin of thoughts which are labels created by liking and disliking and permutations of that causing feelings of craving aversion and then jealousy etc.

The 'attention' is consciousness which has a component of duality. Mostly within the thought. Very severe duality within thought with strong emotions. And this consciousness does not work anymore in deep sleep. This consciousness conjures up a dream in non deep sleep 'sleep'. And off late (for me) this is also experiencing a dreamless sleep which watches all the sensations of the body and hears sounds in the room even when the body sleeps. There is definitely duality in all these experiences. There is an observer. Observer of thoughts. Observer of dreams, body sensations and observer of the dreamless sleep.

But the only time there is no observer is when the 'expansive' awareness lights up. So in this context, the here and now I will call 'awareness' going forward. The "I" less am ness. Any attempt to analyze this awareness creates a duality and thus snaps 'me' out of it. The analogy I gave earlier - about the bubble - it is very apt in describing this. It is like my consciousness creates a bubble in awareness. The bubble IS my consciousness. When thee are no thoughts this bubble is transparent and (almost) merged in the everpresent awareness. When there are thoughts, this bubble 'sees' something that is not there in a illusion of duality.Almost like a soap bubble (consciousness) that is floating in the a air (awareness), becoming clouded up.

Experientially, there are two key things to note regarding this:

(1) The boundary of the bubble temporary dissolves where there are no thoughts - which is the 'amness' experience of awareness. Awareness which is both inside and outside the bubble.

(2) Experientially this 'amness' experience is still inside-out. Looking outside from this illusory bubble. Though there is no 'I', there is still a point of observation which I call as locus of awareness which I am calling amness.

Hope this will clarify some of our back and forth regarding the context of the observer and observed :)

With Regards,
Rishi

Bananafish
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Re: Letting go

Postby Bananafish » Thu May 05, 2016 10:21 am

Hi Rishi!
Thank you for the clarification you made in the previous post. :)
Thanks also for your earnestness in your journey of LOOKing.


It feels that our conversation is becoming more and more complex,
new "technical terms" appearing as we proceed ...

and I would like it to be much simpler, right to the point.



Here's what I want to ask. I'm sure you've
answered this before, but again I want to make sure that you
feel you've experientially seen it in the course of this
conversation; so, here you go:



Does a separate, concrete entity called "I," "self," or "me"
exist in any kind of form?




Peace,

Bananafish

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Rishi
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Re: Letting go

Postby Rishi » Thu May 05, 2016 1:36 pm

Hi Bananafish !
Here's what I want to ask. I'm sure you've
answered this before, but again I want to make sure that you
feel you've experientially seen it in the course of this
conversation; so, here you go:

Does a separate, concrete entity called "I," "self," or "me"
exist in any kind of form?
It doest. But it appears to - within thoughts. And you are right - this is probably the seventh time I have answered that question in the last 6 weeks :)

Regards,
Rishi

Bananafish
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Re: Letting go

Postby Bananafish » Thu May 05, 2016 2:09 pm

Greetings, Rishi!

Hehe, sorry to be so repetitive ... :)

If you're sure your understanding is experiential, I'm going to post the
final questions.

Are you ready for it?

Do you have anything you want to make clear?


Best regards,

Bananafish

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Rishi
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Re: Letting go

Postby Rishi » Thu May 05, 2016 4:15 pm

NP Bananafish, I am enjoying the dialog. I am grateful to you for having me Look :)

Yes please go ahead and post the final questions.

With Regards,
Rishi

Bananafish
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Re: Letting go

Postby Bananafish » Fri May 06, 2016 1:31 pm

Great!

Then, here we go:

1) Is there a separate entity 'self', 'me' 'I', at all, anywhere, in any way, shape or form? Was there ever?


2) Explain in detail what the illusion of separate self is, when it starts and how it works from your own experience. Describe it fully as you see it now.


3) How does it feel to see this? What is the difference from before you started this dialogue? Please report from the past few days.


4) What was the last bit that pushed you over, made you look?


5) Describe decision, intention, free will, choice and control. What makes things happen? How does it work? What are you responsible for? Give examples from experience.


6) Anything to add?



Peace,

Bananafish

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Rishi
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Re: Letting go

Postby Rishi » Tue May 10, 2016 2:41 am

Greetings Bananafish !

Here are my responses:

1) Is there a separate entity 'self', 'me' 'I', at all, anywhere, in any way, shape or form? Was there ever?

No it is an illusion. It appears to exist within thoughts.

2) Explain in detail what the illusion of separate self is, when it starts and how it works from your own experience. Describe it fully as you see it now.

It starts with my basic judgement of liking and disliking which creates the illusion. With judgement comes the judge and the duality of the observer and the observed.

3) How does it feel to see this? What is the difference from before you started this dialogue? Please report from the past few days.

I did not expect it to be so simple as this :) .. The movement between here and now and the thoughts with its illusion of 'I" as the reality of existence was something I had not 'seen' experientially. I can summarize my observations as I had reported earlier:

There is no 'I" in the expansive here and now. The the attention 'latches on' to a pathway which is a stream of thought currents. This pathway is triggered by an initial thought, which itself can be triggered by some sensory input (what I see, smell hear etc) - or even otherwise (random).

This pathway is 'powered' by the judgement in the seed thought. Like & dislike mainly. It follows a general logic/story of maximizing like and minimizing dislike within the context of the thought's content. Awareness follows this pathway closely until interrupted by a "This is not true" thought - after which it moves back to here and now. There is a distinct sense of expansion in awareness. This expansion is actually causing the inference of the 'contraction' within the thought pathway - just by contrast.

4) What was the last bit that pushed you over, made you look?

For me the shift occurred right after the first question - what is the location of I ? And I could not find it !

5) Describe decision, intention, free will, choice and control. What makes things happen? How does it work? What are you responsible for? Give examples from experience.

This is my finding based on very limited looking I have done :

There is no "I" in here and now - so there is no free will. Within thoughts, choice and control are again illusions as they are preprogrammed conditioned triggers (this part is inferred). But there is a 'sort of' of choice though. A choice of dropping what is not true. This is the second wave that comes up after the attention has been hijacked by the thought stream which says 'this is not true'. I can sense a subtle choice in triggering this second wave - after which the attention settles back into silence - in here and now.

6) Anything to add?

Thanks a lot for guiding me through this enquiry. I am grateful to you and Libration Unleashed :)

With Regards,
Rishi

Bananafish
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Re: Letting go

Postby Bananafish » Wed May 11, 2016 1:57 pm

Hi Rishi! :)

Sorry for not having been able to reply ...
been very busy and I need some more time to carefully
read through your answers. Please wait for a bit more,
and I'll post another reply. :)

Thanks,

Bananafish

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Rishi
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Re: Letting go

Postby Rishi » Wed May 11, 2016 2:47 pm

No issues Bananafish, Please take your time :)

With Regards,
Rishi


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