Looking for guidance

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minddweller
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Re: Looking for guidance

Postby minddweller » Sun Dec 20, 2015 1:21 pm

Correction. With a little distance from the overthinking: looking at a tree right now, in d e, it is just a tree, ok, a Willow. End of story. Same with plant in pot, end of story.
That's it. Simple and clear. :-)

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Maranna
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Re: Looking for guidance

Postby Maranna » Sun Dec 20, 2015 8:32 pm

Hello M,

Thank you for reply, always lots to ponder.


1, WHAT IS DOUBT? IS IT A FEELING OR THOUGHT IN D E. JUST LOOKING AT IT AS IT IS?

Just looking at it as it is it is a thought


WRITING EXERCISE WITH I, ME, MINE

I am sitting in my chair drinking my coffee
I am writing down my thoughts and observations

I am listening to music, thinking how much I love the sound
I am watching my breathing, my body
I hear the crackling of the fire in the stove and feel the heat
Now I feel some tension in the pit of my stomach as I strain to hear my next thoughts about what to write
I also feel tension in my shoulders
My cat is looking in at me through the window and now I hear him scratching at the door
I notice some resistance around this exercise, and now that I have acknowledged it, it is gone


WRITING EXERCISE WITHOUT I, ME, MINE

Sitting in chair, drinking coffee, listening to music, writing this in notebook
Enjoying taste and aroma of coffee
Body loves music, is very soothed by the sounds
Getting up to let cat in
Tension in shoulders
Watching duck in pond
Listening to heartbeat, waiting for next thought
Music so enjoyable
Duck waddling over to get food
Thought is saying "this exercise is hard". Just thought. It is what it is.


COMPARE THE TWO EXPERIENCES. IS ONE TRUER THAN THE OTHER?
IF SO, WHICH ONE?
WHAT IS HERE WITHOUT LABELS?
DO LABELS AFFECT THE EXPERIENCE OR JUST DESCRIBE IT?

The second one, without I, me, mine is truer.

The whole experience is described in d. E. without the labels of I, me mine

Yes, labels affect the experience. There is a heavy feeling around the I, me mine scenario. Without the personal emphasis it all lightens up, and as "I" see it, it is still described in enough detail.

Don't know if this is enough or if more is required for feedback.
On a personal note, once I get away from overthinking, I tend to be a minimalist, not very wordy.
Please let me know if you want me to describe in more detail.

Safe travels!

Gratefully, Anna

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minddweller
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Re: Looking for guidance

Postby minddweller » Mon Dec 21, 2015 8:27 pm

1) Yes thought

Writing Exercise
Good observations there!

It feels truer. It all lightens up. Cool.
So these labels (I,me,mine) are they part of this sensate experiencing?

Now, like going to look for the keys in the purse, find what these labels 'I, me' point to in this experiencing? Is there anything at all?

The minimalist approach works well. Try to get straight to the point!

Hasta mañana

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Maranna
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Re: Looking for guidance

Postby Maranna » Tue Dec 22, 2015 6:02 am

Hi Mi,

Thank you, as always for being there for me, guiding me out of confusion.


SO THESE LABELS. I, ME, MINE, ARE THEY PART OF THIS SENSATE EXPERIENCING?

No. I, me, mine are not experienced through the senses, they are experienced through the perceiver.


NOW, LIKE GOING TO LOOK FOR THE KEYS IN THE PURSE, FIND WHAT THESE LABELS "I, ME" POINT TO IN THIS
EXPERIENCING?

Labels "I, me" point to a person who owns the things described, controls, experiences the events, but cannot be found anywhere in direct experience.
Having said the above because I find it to be true I am still "identified" up to a point with this phantom called Anna. Strange, when I think about it.

Warmest wishes, Anna

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minddweller
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Re: Looking for guidance

Postby minddweller » Tue Dec 22, 2015 8:47 pm

So this self is not found 'through the senses' but 'experienced through the perceiver'.
Look at 'the perceiver' that which seem to receive what is perceived.
Is that not just another perception, another appearance, whether thinking or hearing or seeing?
Has this perceiver/awareness got the characteristics of a personal self, age and gender, occupation? Does it have agency or an agenda? How about likes or dislikes? Really look for the perceiver? Can it be found as separate from what is perceived? Is there even this distinction in actual experience or is this a subtle thought or assumption that experience is divided in this way? As always, report from DE. Look into this, investigate.

Try this. Close your eyes and imagine a watermelon. Get it as clear in your minds eye as possible. Now open your eyes. Where did the melon go? What about this imaginary self, has it got any reality outside of story land? Is 'I' anything else than an add-on, not part of experience but added to it? This phantom called Anna is it any more real than Santa Claus?

Look at what in experience is doing the 'identifying with'. It will be strange when thought about but what is the truth right here in experience?

Merry Crimble
M

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Maranna
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Re: Looking for guidance

Postby Maranna » Wed Dec 23, 2015 3:06 am

Hello,

LOOK AT THE PERCEIVER, THAT WHICH SEEMS TO RECEIVE THAT WHICH IS PERCEIVED

There is no perceiver, cannot be found. I do get that, M, should have said Phantom perceiver. In answer to your Question


LABELS I, ME MINE, ARE THEY PART OF THIS SENSATE EXPERIENCE

Someone is doing something with something that belongs to her. There is no experience through the senses, no D E.
That is what I meant with the (phantom) perceiver.

As I was pondering this whole thing, I experienced for the first time how the body functions independently of input from thoughts. My body got up, went to the kitchen, got a mandarin orange, hands peeled the fruit, grabbed a napkin and went back to sit down and continue with what was on the screen. It was only when I started eating the mandarin that I realized not a single thought had gone into that, it all happened completely on it s own. Call me a slow learner, but until that moment there were always some thoughts seemingly related to what the body was doing, seeming to influence the actions. Exceptions were the obvious of walking, one foot in front of the other, eating, chewing, simple things like that, but not a whole sequence of events. In the past I would have labeled that not being mindful. Okay, so I can move on from this, lesson learned.


WATERMELON EXERCISE

What happened when I opened my eyes Nothing. There never was a watermelon

This is how I want to see the person Anna evaporate, as yet this is a theory, yet there is no belief in her existence anymore as such, but I have not a direct experience about her being strictly fiction. As usual, overthinking.

Merry Christmas to you too, almost. Anna

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minddweller
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Re: Looking for guidance

Postby minddweller » Wed Dec 23, 2015 10:31 am

Hello Phantom
There is no perceiver, cannot be found. I do get that, M, should have said Phantom perceiver.
And
Someone is doing something with something that belongs to her. There is no experience through the senses, no D E.
[quote/]
Where and what is this Phantom something that is doing something with something that belongs to her?
The body doing its thing, thoughts arising and passing, sensations through the senses. It's all alive right but where is this Phantom (melon)? How could it evaporate if it is not found in any of the senses? Is this phantom even necessary for things to happen?
As I was pondering this whole thing, I experienced for the first time how the body functions independently of input from thoughts. My body got up, went to the kitchen, got a mandarin orange, hands peeled the fruit, grabbed a napkin and went back to sit down and continue with what was on the screen. It was only when I started eating the mandarin that I realized not a single thought had gone into that, it all happened completely on it s own. Call me a slow learner, but until that moment there were always some thoughts seemingly related to what the body was doing, seeming to influence the actions. Exceptions were the obvious of walking, one foot in front of the other, eating, chewing, simple things like that, but not a whole sequence of events. In the past I would have labeled that not being mindful. Okay, so I can move on from this, lesson learned.
[quote/]
Yes body does quite well with or without thinking happening! Great observation. The fact that there is conscious awareness of all this suggests it is not merely a lack of mindfulness (being lost in thought story).
Does Anna exist as anything but a thought? Look!
This thought 'I', can it do anything, control anything in what is experienced?
WATERMELON EXERCISE

What happened when I opened my eyes Nothing. There never was a watermelon Great!

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minddweller
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Re: Looking for guidance

Postby minddweller » Wed Dec 23, 2015 10:34 am

Sorry, I tried to quote on the phone and it didn't quite do what I wanted it to. Hopefully you can work it out :-)

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Maranna
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Re: Looking for guidance

Postby Maranna » Thu Dec 24, 2015 5:17 am

Hello M.

Thank you you so much!

Today was a very frustrating day, I really felt like I was seriously stuck somewhere. When I examined this closer the feeling lifted, exposing the frustration as thoughts but could not get momentum because of too many interruptions.
Expect interruptions for the next few days to continue, it being Christmas, after all.


IS PHANTOM NECESSARY FOR THINGS TO HAPPEN?

No, not at all,


DO THOUGHTS NEED TO BE BELIEVED?

Absolutely not

Tried to disengage from excessive thinking today, which due to frustrations was very important, still feel stuck, though.

Be well, Anna

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minddweller
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Re: Looking for guidance

Postby minddweller » Thu Dec 24, 2015 9:08 am

Please try and answer all the questions from yesterday when you got time then:

What is able to disengage from thinking and how does that actually work? Describe from actual experience.

Sorry to hear you are frustrated and wish that things settle down real soon

M

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Maranna
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Re: Looking for guidance

Postby Maranna » Fri Dec 25, 2015 7:11 am

Hello M,

Had not really had time to sit with unanswered questions from yesterday, but this from this morning:


WHAT IS ABLE TO DISENGAGE FROM THINKING AND HOW DOES THAT ACTUALLY WORK? DESCRIBE FROM EXPERIENCE

Tuning into the senses broke the heavy thinking mode for me. Wrapping presents, hearing the rustle of paper, I found myself smiling, with all that mind stuff gone.
This happened several times because I was not able to get away from thinking for any length of time.
Going into the body looking for tension, acknowledging it, seeing that frustration in d E is just thoughts.

Have not experienced frustration for the rest of the day.

A very lovely Christmas to you! Anna

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minddweller
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Re: Looking for guidance

Postby minddweller » Fri Dec 25, 2015 10:23 am

Hello Anna,

Great! Frustration is found to be thoughts, and perhaps there are sensations of contraction in the body too at times.

Let's look really closely at thoughts now. As always, report from what is actually found in real life experiencing rather than great theories about reality.

1) Does thoughts say something along the lines of 'thinking should disappear'?

2) Can the thought 'I' (or any other thought for that matter) make thoughts disappear?

3) Does the 'me' thought know what thoughts will show up next, or chose thoughts?

4) Does thoughts think?

5) Are thoughts 'me' or 'mine' or are these thoughts just thoughts amongst other thoughts?

6) How does 'I' get away from thinking if 'I' isn't actually nothing more than a thought like 'Santa' or 'unicorn'? If 'I' is actually pointing to something real, what is it describing/pointing to?

And this question wasn't answered:

7) What, if anything, is able (or not able) to disengage from thinking?

Take the next few days to answer these questions from actual experience. Answer them all one by one. No more questions will be added until they have been answered so take your time, no rush. Feel free to answer the unanswered questions from the other day too if you run out of questions :-)

I wish you a lovely Christmas to you too!

(Between the 27th and 30th I might not be able to write you as I will be on retreat and maybe without internet)

M

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Maranna
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Re: Looking for guidance

Postby Maranna » Sat Dec 26, 2015 7:16 pm

Good morning, M,

1, DO THOUGHTS SAY SOMETHING ALONG THE LINES OF "THINKING SHOULD DISAPPEAR"?

No, that would be suicide for the self


2, CAN THE THOUGHT "I" (OR ANY OTHER THOUGHT) MAKE THOUGHTS DISAPPEAR?

No


3, DOES THE "ME" THOUGHT KNOW WHAT THOUGHTS WILL SHOW UP NEXT?

No


4, DO THOUGHTS THINK?

No


5, ARE THOUGHTS "ME" or "MINE", OR ARE THESE THOUGHTS JUST THOUGHTS AMONGST OTHER THOUGHTS?

Not sure that I fully get the Question. Here is what I understand:
Thoughts are about "me" or pertaining to "my" life, but they are just thoughts amongst other thoughts, always
related to what is known. I have never noticed what I would call a "creative" thought.

6, HOW DOES "I" GET AWAY FROM THINKING IF "I" IS NOTHING MORE THAN A THOUGHT LIKE "SANTA" OR "UNICORN"? IF "I"
IS ACTUALLY POINTING TO SOMETHING REAL, WHAT IS IT DESCRIBING/POINTING TO?

It doesn't get away from thinking, that's how it keeps itself alive. It's not pointing to anything real


And then:
WHAT, IF ANYTHING, IS ABLE (OR NOT ABLE) TO DISENGAGE FROM THINKING?

Awareness, that is, I am aware of certain thought patterns, so I watch thinking, thoughts, and in my experience observing thoughts makes them stop (temporarily, alas)
And then there is using the senses.

Wishing you a wonderful retreat.
Gratefully, Anna

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Maranna
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Re: Looking for guidance

Postby Maranna » Tue Dec 29, 2015 7:00 am

Hello M,

Here are unanswered questions from before your last response:


WHAT IS WANTING TO SEE ANNA EVAPORATE, ESPECIALLY WHEN THERE IS NO BELIEF IN HER ANYMORE?

That which desires to wake up


DOES ANNA EXIST AS ANYTHING BUT A THOUGHT?

No, just a thought, but it's a frequent reminder


THIS THOUGHT "I", CAN IT DO ANYTHING, CONTROL ANYTHING IN WHAT IS EXPERIENCED?

No, nothing


THINKING, LIKE HEARING OR TOUCHING, CAN THIS BE CONTROLLED IN ANY WAY?

No

DO THOUGHTS NEED TO BE BELIEVED AND IF SO WHAT IS BELIEVING IN THEM?

No, thoughts do not be believed.

Thank you for doing this
Anna

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minddweller
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Re: Looking for guidance

Postby minddweller » Thu Dec 31, 2015 12:48 pm

Hello Anna,

I'm still on retreat and so I'll get back to you properly in a few days.

1) "No, that would be suicide for the self"

Let's find this self for which it would be suicide if thinking disappeared.

Can the 'I, Me, Self'-thought die? How long is a thought and where does 'self-thought' go when it is not present? Anything perceived that is outside perception here?


6) So awareness is able to disengage from thinking.
This awareness may be thought to be in charge of what is engaged with. So perhaps this is YOU, 'the Observer of experience'. Relax and look right at the 'observer of experience'.

What do you find?

b) Sure there is awareness, is you a fiction happening in awareness or is awareness your awareness? Look directly into actual experience, don't believe what thoughts say is there, actually find out first hand what is here!


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