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Seeking no self

Posted: Tue Nov 17, 2015 2:13 pm
by fordprefect
What brings you to Liberation Unleashed?:

Watching a Jackson Peterson talk on Dzogchen and realizing there is no self, he mentions this site and its looks interesting to me to follow up.

What do you expect of the conversation on this forum?:

I am expecting the conversation be around how to realise that self is an illusion and how I can go about realising that state.

What is your background in terms of seeking and inquiry?:

Taken interest in Buddhism and Dzogchen over last year. Reading Sogyal Rinpoche's The Tibetan Book of the Living and Dying, and other online texts and videos around Buddhism and Dzogchen.

Re: Seeking no self

Posted: Wed Nov 18, 2015 8:55 pm
by fordprefect
So I have completed step 5 on the 7 step path at Marked Eternal and I am now in ready.
so if anyone is available, can you guide me please?

Thanks

Re: Seeking no self

Posted: Thu Nov 19, 2015 11:14 am
by Ilona
Hi ford perfect, welcome to LU forum.
I'm here to assist you :)

Good to hear that you worked with the steps on my blog.
So where are you at? What is the feeling inside, when you contemplate, that self, as a person, I, does not exist?


Please refrain from watching any videos, reading anything in the subject, just write from your own experience.

Sending love.

Re: Seeking no self

Posted: Thu Nov 19, 2015 11:50 am
by fordprefect
Hi Ilona

Thanks for your offer of help. I think I am "getting this" to some level already, but I want to be sure that I am gaining a true realisation and not just kidding myself into it, So I really appreciate your guidance.
(And "I" just realised there was alot of "I"s used in that last sentence ;-) )

So, yesterday I recognised that there is an awareness that has always been there. This is not the same as the body that I considered to be mine, or the memories that are remembered, or even the thoughts that spring up almost spontaneously. There was also a connection to nature, a oneness with trees and other living entities I have never considered or experienced before.

The feeling inside is of calmness, positivity and a slight feeling of being part of a greater whole. I am at peace with the idea that there is no self controlling everything, and this feel like 'everything will be alright'.

Peace and love.
Ford

Re: Seeking no self

Posted: Thu Nov 19, 2015 6:46 pm
by Ilona
thank you very much for answer.
Good to notice, that awareness that is always been here. there is silence underneath thoughts.
The feeling inside is of calmness, positivity and a slight feeling of being part of a greater whole. I am at peace with the idea that there is no self controlling everything, and this feel like 'everything will be alright'.
great!
can you describe what else you see, what is different? just put it to words.
how does it feel to see this?

sending love

Re: Seeking no self

Posted: Thu Nov 19, 2015 7:14 pm
by fordprefect
One thing I can say is that I am approaching things in a much me mindful say than I have been able to before. There is less noise, less distraction. I am now able to sit in meditation and just be. If thoughts arise I can bat than away. Before the would encompass me and take over, spiral.
Not sure if this sounds weird but seeing, i mean everything i see through these eyesaround me seems slightly more vivid. Colors are a little bolder. More definition to things.

Peace

Re: Seeking no self

Posted: Thu Nov 19, 2015 7:19 pm
by fordprefect
One thing I can say is that I am approaching things in a much me mindful say than I have been able to before

Peace
Meant to say "much more mindful way..."
Typing on a phone :)

Re: Seeking no self

Posted: Fri Nov 20, 2015 10:30 am
by fordprefect
Hi Ilona

I wanted to add some more to this this morning.

It occurred to me that as there is no self, then self can not be hurt, upset, depressed, anxious - as these are just thoughts that arise. They maybe due to external forces or conditions, but ultimately are just thoughts. They are separate, disconnected from the Awareness underneath, but do arise in the same head where the Awareness seems to sit. They follow the same body around, but are not a constituent part of a 'me', because there isn't one...

This realisation has made 'me' feel a little emotional. Is this normal?

Have a great day.

ford

Re: Seeking no self

Posted: Fri Nov 20, 2015 6:06 pm
by Ilona
Beautiful! You are right there, emotional thing is normal of course.
Yes, great to notice, that thoughts are just thoughts, a voice in the head is talking, but it does need to be taken seriously. A self can not get hurt. Hurtful emotions still can happen. When you feel a strong emotion, have a look, what is behind, is there a feeler?

Is there a gap between the feeling, feeler and the felt? Or it's one something, that can also be called awareness of feeling?

Sit with this and check through all sense perceptions- hearing, visual, touch, taste and smell, is there a perceived outside of experience?


Write lots!

Sending love

Re: Seeking no self

Posted: Fri Nov 20, 2015 6:40 pm
by fordprefect
Is there a gap between the feeling, feeler and the felt? Or it's one something, that can also be called awareness of feeling?
Hi Ilona

I am noticing feelings arise, some good and some negative, I guess like always.
Especially with negative feelings or thoughts, rather than allowing it to engulf me I am able to label it and observe it, and try to deal with it as if it was an external object of some kind. In most cases I realize that any negative feeling is just that, a feeling. Its like an object or separate thing, it doesn't have mass, I can't touch it and I can't see it, and so it doesn't affect the underlying awareness. But there is an awareness of feeling, a sense that a feeling has been felt. Actually there is an awareness of everything, awareness of feeling, awareness of seeing, awareness of typing this reply....

I'm going to consider the rest of your reply and come back to you this later this evening or tomorrow and 'write lots'.
Got a busy weekend so it may take a little time.

Thanks so much for your guidance!
ford

Re: Seeking no self

Posted: Sat Nov 21, 2015 9:55 am
by Ilona
Good work!
Now see if you can find the witness, observer, that is detached from what is happening.
Is there one?
What do you find when you look for the witness?

Re: Seeking no self

Posted: Sat Nov 21, 2015 2:08 pm
by fordprefect
Hi Ilona

Its a beautiful day today if a little cold out. Hope you are having a nice weekend so far.

Its quite simple really, there is no witness, observer, 'character of me' looking down on all of this and pulling the strings.Nothing creates these thoughts or experiences, they appear, or happen by themselves. They may be influenced by what is happening around or what someone else is saying or doing, but they are a result of these external forces. There is not a 'me' deciding on what thoughts will happen or how to react to a given situation, it just seems to happen. There is awareness of all these things happening, but no entity controlling them.

Seeing is just happening. Hearing is happening. Heart is beating - by itself. Breathing, by itself. Thinking, thoughts just happen.
There is awareness, an alert sense of 'being' that is not connected to this body, these thoughts, this breathing.
If all that stopped I sense that the awareness would just continue to just 'be'.
Without the sense of sight, smell, hearing touch and taste, it would still continue to 'just be'.
Maybe there are other 'awarenesses' (if thats a word) it could connect with on some sub concious or telepathic level, this may be the case. Probably easier in fact to do without the physical constraints of a body and thoughts that otherwise cloud the perpetual freedom of the awareness.

But what is watching all this, observing, controlling or managing it all?
No being or entity watching over all this to make sure things happen.
No passive observer making judgements or decisions on behalf of the string of random thoughts.
No middleman between the awareness and thought, actions, body.

There is no 'command and control center'.
Nothing.
It just 'is'.

ford

Re: Seeking no self

Posted: Sun Nov 22, 2015 3:33 pm
by Ilona
Beautiful! It was great to read your words.

How are you feeling today?
What else are you noticing?

Much love.

Re: Seeking no self

Posted: Sun Nov 22, 2015 5:22 pm
by fordprefect
Hey Ilona

Today's been a great but packed day with the kids while my wife gets some chillout time.
I have been a lot calmer than normal (it can be a bit stressful at times with two little ones!).
My mind is clear and I have been getting things done without ruminating or day dreaming.

I am convinced, no not convinced, just know that there is no entity or other that is me.
I am taing moments throughout the day to just be.
And I am happy and freer for knowing this.
Life is good.

Ford

Re: Seeking no self

Posted: Sun Nov 22, 2015 5:22 pm
by fordprefect
Hey Ilona

Today's been a great but packed day with the kids while my wife gets some chillout time.
I have been a lot calmer than normal (it can be a bit stressful at times with two little ones!).
My mind is clear and I have been getting things done without ruminating or day dreaming.

I am convinced, no not convinced, just know that there is no entity or other that is me.
I am taing moments throughout the day to just be.
And I am happy and freer for knowing this.
Life is good.

Ford