Breaking my own heart

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Alexw
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Re: Breaking my own heart

Postby Alexw » Wed Aug 19, 2015 12:30 am

Hi Andrea,

Thank you for your answers - beautiful!

Let me just clarify a few things before we move on - I guess its mostly different concepts we use, but anyway, here we go:
No, Alex, in my direct experience, there is no such entity.
Is it anywhere else? Where does it seem to be?
The illusion allows us to operate here, without it we couldn't function.
Yes, ultimately it does. There are levels though. Seeing through the illusion of a separate self will slowly dismantle the belief in this entity and the conditioning that has been acquired, but it will still leave all your other conceptual knowledge intact. You function in society. If all of it goes... if all conceptual knowledge goes, then... well... who knows..? :-)
I feel like things are less significant, there's nothing to get my panties in a twist about, really, all is well. Not like over the top joyous awesomeness, more like a low-level contentment, a background sense of being pleased with all of it.
That is good the hear!
the usefulness of this illusion of 'I'... that helped me see that I didn't have to get rid of the 'I', that I really never would get rid of it, because I am it. How can 'I' get rid of 'I'?
We have to be precise about that. There is the illusion of a separate entity/I/self and there is all the conceptual knowledge that has been acquired that supports the illusion in action but as well allows you to function in society.
The illusion of I is nothing particular useful, rather the opposite, but the knowledge that shapes the illusion is also something quite useful in daily life. Ultimately all conceptual knowledge adds to the illusion and thus can be useful in one way, but counter productive in another... Yes, it defines this I, but also others and the world...
Seeing that this is so and that the knowledge is perfectly fine to be used, but that all references to I or other, subject and object are really just something that has been learned and does not define a separate identity (or separation in general). Do you see what I am pointing at?
So, yes, how should I get rid of I? You can't deliberately do that and you also don't have to because its just a concept, you just have to see that this is so. Do you?
I decided on asking him to look at his intentions when he starts a task.... I really like the way that sounds, I like thinking of myself as someone who manages that way, but on some level it seems like so much bullshit as well, at the same time. But it's what I've got, it's how we communicate. I can use it, and let it use me, but it all seems a little hollow right now, a little silly.
This is maybe a somewhat tricky example...
When you say you decided to ask him about his intentions and then you say that you like to see yourself as someone who manages things in this way... this is also BS but its simply what happens... ok...

So when you made this decision to ask a certain question - where did this decision come from? Who made it?
Was it a decision at all that was made or did a thought simply appear that this should be the question to be asked?
Do you know for sure that you will ask this question tomorrow?

Can you maybe find another, simple example?

Regards,
Alex

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andrea3868
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Re: Breaking my own heart

Postby andrea3868 » Wed Aug 19, 2015 2:20 pm

Tough night, Alex. Nightmares over and over, waking up with a jump and an adrenaline rush. Lots of thoughts about dying, about how we are all going to die, how none of us knows how long we have. Just really aware of that. I'll think about what you said and reply tonight or tomorrow.
Andrea

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Alexw
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Re: Breaking my own heart

Postby Alexw » Thu Aug 20, 2015 12:40 am

Hi Andrea,

Hope you feel better by now.
Yes, it can be a turbulent time - thoughts running in circles keeping you awake etc...
Just let it go on as it does, it will pass.

Take your time answering, I am going on a two day trip now anyway.

Kind regards
Alex

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andrea3868
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Re: Breaking my own heart

Postby andrea3868 » Thu Aug 20, 2015 3:48 pm

Hi Alex,

Much better today, I slept almost 12 hours last night!
Is it anywhere else? Where does it seem to be?
- no, it (the 'I') is not anywhere else. Or it is, in my thoughts, which are real thoughts, but not about real things necessarily.
Do you see what I am pointing at?
So, yes, how should I get rid of I? You can't deliberately do that and you also don't have to because its just a concept, you just have to see that this is so. Do you?
I do see it, Alex, and it's a little slippery. All I really have to do is look for 'I' in my direct experience and confirm that it's not there to turn 'I' into a concept again. But just going through the day yesterday, I was tired, I was grumpy, I was confused. These were the thoughts I was having 'I'm so tired!' So by default, I'm still in the illusion, but I can see the concept anytime that I want to. Wait! I don't see it whenever I want to. Now I have the thought sometimes... the thought is something like 'remember the illusion'. But I don't have any control over when it pops up. I do see that there is NO getting rid of 'I', and no need to do so, and it's useful to keep in mind that none of it is true. It does seem like 'keeping it in mind' is a little out of my control, but it's ever so much on mind right now anyway.
So when you made this decision to ask a certain question - where did this decision come from? Who made it?
Was it a decision at all that was made or did a thought simply appear that this should be the question to be asked?
Do you know for sure that you will ask this question tomorrow?
Yes, I see, there was no decision. There was just a thought that I labeled a decision out of habit. I can see there's some habit breaking to take on here. And I didn't ask the question, as it turns out. The whole conversation went a totally different direction than my useless decision would have dictated.
5) Describe decision, intention, free will, choice and control. What makes things happen? How does it work? What are you responsible for? Please give examples from recent experience.
Decision, intention, free will, choice and control are all illusions too, aren't they? I don't know what makes things happen, or how it works. I don't know what I am responsible for. Seems like I am just along for the ride. I need to sit with this one a bit longer, Alex. I know you're out of town for a couple of days. I'll watch for examples and get one in here before your return.

Andrea

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Alexw
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Re: Breaking my own heart

Postby Alexw » Sun Aug 23, 2015 2:06 am

Hi Andrea,

I am back in town.
How are you? What is the "I" up to? :-)

Alex

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andrea3868
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Re: Breaking my own heart

Postby andrea3868 » Mon Aug 24, 2015 3:08 pm

Hey Alex,

It's been a roller coaster ride, for sure. Everything is a bit surreal. 'I' keep noticing that there is no 'I'. I had a very odd experience. A mutual friend of Jeff and I got in touch with me on facebook the other day, to see if I'm coming up to visit soon. I did have a reaction, my breath got a little faster, my palms tingled a bit, funny sensation in the pit of my stomach. But I had no idea what to label it. I'm excited? I'm scared? I'm angry? Oh, right - 'I' am not anything. Then I just got really curious about all of the different ways I was feeling. No suffering, no sadness, no drama.

I just gave myself a nice quiet weekend. I slept a lot, probably 24 hours out of 48. I haven't slept well in months. I feel quiet, low key, a little bit slow.

Andrea

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Alexw
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Re: Breaking my own heart

Postby Alexw » Tue Aug 25, 2015 2:31 am

Hi Andrea,
Then I just got really curious about all of the different ways I was feeling. No suffering, no sadness, no drama.
Yes, thats great. Explore and enjoy the experience. It is nice to see things from a different angle, without the constant backdrop of "me and my problems"...

You mentioned that you would look at some more examples of "decision, intention, free will, choice and control" - did any specific experience stand out and make you look?

Regards,
Alex

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andrea3868
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Re: Breaking my own heart

Postby andrea3868 » Wed Aug 26, 2015 2:53 pm

Hey Alex,

You had asked for some examples of
decision, intention, free will, choice and control
.

I can't find any. I can find thoughts about all of those things, but I can't find a moment, can't watch myself actually make a decision. So far, and I'll keep looking. Or any of the others - intention, free will, choice and control. Yeah, right... I have a thought that I call a 'choice' - does that count? I think not.

Alex, it's like everything has changed, but nothing has changed. Last night I woke up in the middle of the night to my thoughts just racing, more thoughts per second then I've ever experienced. And then I had the thought 'I wonder if I can make it go faster!' LOL. I was half asleep still, must have been. But somehow I could let all of these thoughts just go by... it's so hard to write about this. I'm sure you've noticed my writing has slowed down. Because I say 'I could let these thoughts go by' - but I really didn't do anything. I never have. I never will. So strange. Anyway, the thinking has changed, and it seems like I have nothing to do with it. Instead of the thought 'I have to stop thinking about Jeff, I have to stop being so sad' the thoughts that come are more like 'huh, I spend a lot of time thinking about that' or 'is this sadness? what is this? it's not bad...'

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Alexw
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Re: Breaking my own heart

Postby Alexw » Fri Aug 28, 2015 12:07 am

Hi Andrea,

Thank you for all your answers.

I guess its time to add you to the LU Facebook groups. Could you please send me a private message with your FB name?

Also, if you feel like discussing certain topics in some more detail we can also start a new thread in the Unleashed section of this forum. Maybe give it some time to settle and let me know what you would like to do.

It was a pleasure talking to you. Cu on Facebook.

Kind regards,
Alex


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