Durian, what brings you here?

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Ilona
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Re: Durian, what brings you here?

Postby Ilona » Sat Feb 11, 2012 9:28 am

No you don't have a choice because there is no you to have it. As in zero. None at all.
That does not mean that human organism needs a manager, it's already working perfectly, only the software running some messed up program that says there is this 'me' that runs the show.

Notice, that everything already is happening all by itself. Notice that noticing is happening all by itself. Awakening is not a moment, but a process, another program, that is running by itself.

What feelings come up here?
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Re: Durian, what brings you here?

Postby durian » Sun Feb 12, 2012 8:49 am

Sometimes I allow the possibility of not having a choice and I just start giggling in various situations because my situation/story seems really funny. This happened a few times today. But then other times today, like when I first read this, I felt sad and frustrated, like, not having any choice means not being in control, and not being in control means no chance of success (which I know doesn't make sense but it's the thought process) or maybe escape, etc. And doubt, some doubt today about the whole process. A less-lucid day I guess you could say. Ebb & flow are all the flow right? ...

<3

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Re: Durian, what brings you here?

Postby Ilona » Sun Feb 12, 2012 9:49 am

Yes, there is nothing but flow. :)

The choices has always been happening. And there are chooses that lead to success and others that don't. This is not gonna change, because there never was a separate 'me' that was choosing anyway. There is a belief that you can control outcome, but really it's all happening spontaneously.

Yes watch how chooses happen. Where is the feeling what to go with? How does it work. Get right up close and watch the process of choosing as it comes. No matter big or small, important or not, observe how chooses come into being.

It's not about having or not having choise. It's about seeing that choise happens regardless if I comes in and claims the ownership of making the choice.

Sending love. <3
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Re: Durian, what brings you here?

Postby durian » Mon Feb 13, 2012 9:36 am

Yes watch how chooses happen. Where is the feeling what to go with? How does it work. Get right up close and watch the process of choosing as it comes. No matter big or small, important or not, observe how chooses come into being.
Still working on this and stumped. This choice thing is like a zen koan that i have to ponder for like 10 years or something. If I get it, it will be through experience and no mental understanding can fake it. I feel like I'm trying to understand it mentally and don't want to fake it, so, I'm stumped.

It's not about having or not having choise. It's about seeing that choise happens regardless if I comes in and claims the ownership of making the choice.
I just realized I'm not even sure what choice is. Whether a choice is something I consciously mentally decide...or whether a choice is any time any part of me moves (which could be decisions below my conscious awareness).

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Re: Durian, what brings you here?

Postby Ilona » Mon Feb 13, 2012 10:52 am

Either you decide consciously or unconsciously choice has nothing to do with external chooser.
Is there a chooser?
See if you can find one.
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Re: Durian, what brings you here?

Postby durian » Mon Feb 13, 2012 9:23 pm

Thanks for putting it this way! I will spend today looking for a chooser.

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Re: Durian, what brings you here?

Postby durian » Tue Feb 14, 2012 9:16 am

Either you decide consciously or unconsciously choice has nothing to do with external chooser.
Is there a chooser?
See if you can find one.


Couldn't find one. From what I can see today, what I think of as choices done by a chooser just involve thoughts and habits and reactions, and if there is nothing behind the thoughts/thinker then there is nothing behind the choice/chooser either—how can it be any different?

But I also noticed that even when things let go for a while, still when something happens like getting cold, there seems to be such a solid sense of a 'suferer'..

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Re: Durian, what brings you here?

Postby Ilona » Tue Feb 14, 2012 5:50 pm

yes there is no chooser, all is happening spontaneously and apparent choice is effortless. thoughts are effortless too, only some of them talk about suffering.

can you look up and see if there is a sufferer?

much love
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Re: Durian, what brings you here?

Postby durian » Wed Feb 15, 2012 9:41 am

can you look up and see if there is a sufferer?

Well this is the same: there is no thinker, no chooser, no doer, no sufferer. But I am not sure how much I am really seeing and how much I am just applying past seeing with logic to this question to get the right answer. When I look at the suffering I sure can't find any solid entity 'me' that is behind it, but I certainly feel suffering and am often bothered by it, so what is being bothered? Maybe I can't see 'I' when I'm looking because I'm looking from that. After all, isn't our sense of self built on sensory perception and relationship to our environment? Uh oh I'm just confusing myself more... :P

I've been having some more joy than normal the last couple days but also still plenty of doubt about my ability to 'get' anything beyond the surface, and frustration with the mental density.

Thanks for being here. ;]

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Re: Durian, what brings you here?

Postby Ilona » Wed Feb 15, 2012 1:32 pm

just to make it clear- thinking that you are looking is just another thought. looking and seeing does not require thought. thought comes after.

:) great to hear that the experience has been lighter recently.
now take a look, once again, what is here now when you do not think about it. feel it with the body, what is obvious? and thought process is it separate from what is?

much love to you.
Truth realized will set you free.
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Re: Durian, what brings you here?

Postby durian » Thu Feb 16, 2012 7:23 am

now take a look, once again, what is here now when you do not think about it. feel it with the body, what is obvious? and thought process is it separate from what is?

The word that comes up this morning and tonight for this question is 'existence'.

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Re: Durian, what brings you here?

Postby Ilona » Thu Feb 16, 2012 12:56 pm

perfect.
existence just is, that includes everything, thought i is just a thought, there is nothing doing existence.

so durian, is there a you in any shape or form in reality?

much love.
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Re: Durian, what brings you here?

Postby durian » Fri Feb 17, 2012 9:02 am

No, there doesn't seem to be. But there are still patterns of reaction like programs running that give the convincing illusion of a 'me' but when looking closer, I can't find it.

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Re: Durian, what brings you here?

Postby Ilona » Fri Feb 17, 2012 9:15 am

The pattern of prorgaming, habits of thought of behaviour, the character, does it all require a me? Does illusion of 'me' require a real me?

Now don't look for that me, it's not there. Look at what is, what is obvious. What is seen when it's looked at the obvious?
Truth realized will set you free.
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Re: Durian, what brings you here?

Postby durian » Sat Feb 18, 2012 8:06 am

The pattern of prorgaming, habits of thought of behaviour, the character, does it all require a me? Does illusion of 'me' require a real me?
No. (By the way, I am finding it funny lately that the type of therapy I am doing is called 'character analysis'.)

Now don't look for that me, it's not there. Look at what is, what is obvious. What is seen when it's looked at the obvious?
When I read this, it was a new idea to 'not look for that me' — I hadn't realized I was doing that all the time. When I stop looking for 'me', i start to realize how much energy goes into — not just being 'me' or believing 'me' but — actually looking for me. It's like I always am scrambling around in my head trying to find it and fit the character to the situation or something — trying to recreate the illusion over and over and over. This takes a lot of energy and when I let go of this for a minute, there is more space in my head and less tension. When I look at existence without trying to find 'me', the word coming is 'flow' -- meaning that the sense of time decreases and there is not the strained focus on what is before or after but everything is now. But there is still the observer and not just being in the experience totally.

<3


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