Durian, what brings you here?

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durian
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Re: Durian, what brings you here?

Postby durian » Mon Feb 06, 2012 6:55 am

Hi Ilona, thanks for being there. I get easily frustrated with the ebb and flow of things. Sometimes I compare myself to an Alzheimer's patient, who at times is totally lucid and fine and then later doesn't recognize anyone around them and then later is lucid again etc..

i see. yes, the tension is here and 'you' want to get out of it. but take a little step towards this tension, not trying to avoid it, bring it closer. ask it, literally, what is it trying to show you. allow it to unfold.
resistance is a sign that there are some conflicting beliefs in the system. ask it to reveal what it is. make friends with resistance, thank it. it is only trying to help by pointing to unresolved stuff.


I did this (thanked & asked the tension/resistance) and did some journaling about what it's trying to tell me. It was pretty talkative. I agree that it is trying to point out unresolved stuff. The internal conflict takes up so much energy.

once you do that, look at feeling again. notice, is it personal or is it a tension in the body that is labelled as personal? feeling + label.

I did this and it was tension labelled as personal. Then more energy was freed up and I was able to sit without nearly as much tension for a while and get a little bit to the nothing behind the tension.

take a look at where feelings come from. can they be controlled, willed away? see, they come for a visit to be felt. and if for years and years you have been saying no to them, they have been stored inside. all they want to do is leave the system. is it ok for you to feel them so they can leave/ be released? see what happens if you give permission for the feeling to just be here. watch it as it comes up and just feel it without holding back. look behind the feeling, is there a feeler? what is there?


The feelings can't be controlled just like thoughts can't be controlled. There is a strong habit of saying no to them so I am trying to get better at feeling them. Things move a lot easier that way. I don't see any feeler behind the feeling; in one direction there is story/thoughts and in another direction there is "nothing" or at least things get a lot quieter and stiller without the emotion/thoughts that were there.

sending love. and a hug.

Thank you. Returned. :)

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Re: Durian, what brings you here?

Postby Ilona » Mon Feb 06, 2012 4:52 pm

I get easily frustrated with the ebb and flow of things.
when you breath in and out, it's one breathing, so is the ebb and flow- one flow. there is nothing but flow. and the frustration rises as you begin to resist what is. there is only this...

for the next bit i'd like you to investigate thought- feeling connection. you see already, that thoughts happen on their own, so are feelings- they can not be controlled. so inspect this mind/body mechanism, how thought influences feeling in the body and feeling thoughts. just look up close and see what comes up.

can you see that this all is going on by itself? how do the loops of thinking happen? how to break the pattern? watch that in yourself and others. tell me, what is the part that resistance plays here, what is the part of acceptance, surrender?

looking forward to your answers.
much love.
Truth realized will set you free.
http://ilonaciunaite.com/book

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durian
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Re: Durian, what brings you here?

Postby durian » Mon Feb 06, 2012 9:42 pm

Hi, I wanted to answer part of this -- mostly to connect I guess -- but I am still working on most of it. This one could probably be a homework for a long time!

when you breath in and out, it's one breathing, so is the ebb and flow- one flow. there is nothing but flow. and the frustration rises as you begin to resist what is. there is only this...
Thanks, this is helpful. I am noticing today that a big layer of tension seems to involve resisting the resistance, since that's often 'what is'.

for the next bit i'd like you to investigate thought- feeling connection. you see already, that thoughts happen on their own, so are feelings- they can not be controlled. so inspect this mind/body mechanism, how thought influences feeling in the body and feeling thoughts. just look up close and see what comes up.

I sometimes can see this clearly. Like today, a worry thought and then a pain in my stomach for example. The calmer the bodymind is, the easier I can see this—individual thoughts connected to arising feelings. But when wound up into a tight ball, it is just a tangled mess and it's like I need to come down first.

can you see that this all is going on by itself?
Haha, no! Most of the time I can't see it and I think I'm in control somehow. But when I am reminding myself of your words like this, it gives me some small breaks where I can consider this possibility, which feels freeing.

how do the loops of thinking happen? how to break the pattern? watch that in yourself and others. tell me, what is the part that resistance plays here, what is the part of acceptance, surrender?

Still working on this part.

<3

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Re: Durian, what brings you here?

Postby Ilona » Mon Feb 06, 2012 9:50 pm

Good stuff, keep digging. Just remember the honesty is the key.

By the way, have you heard of eft technique? If not watch some videos on utube, it's very simple but very effective. Helps reduse the tension and free some emotional energy. You may experiment with that. It works. It helps with dealing with intense emotions, by redusing them.

Yes, resistance to resistance is a reinforced loop of resistance. Allow it. Take the path of least resistance, relax into it. Its all just thoughts about resistance, really.

Much love.
Truth realized will set you free.
http://ilonaciunaite.com/book

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Re: Durian, what brings you here?

Postby durian » Tue Feb 07, 2012 8:57 pm

for the next bit i'd like you to investigate thought- feeling connection. you see already, that thoughts happen on their own, so are feelings- they can not be controlled. so inspect this mind/body mechanism, how thought influences feeling in the body and feeling thoughts. just look up close and see what comes up.
Have been watching thought and feeling going back and forth, thought leading to a feeling, feeling leading to a thought.

can you see that this all is going on by itself?
Yes. I am seeing this more today. Round and round, outside of "my" control. Yet, there is still some perception that there is a "me" who is noticing that and having an opinion about it, so it would appear that I don't really see this yet.

how do the loops of thinking happen? how to break the pattern? watch that in yourself and others. tell me, what is the part that resistance plays here, what is the part of acceptance, surrender?
The more awareness going on then the less they are looping. Break the pattern -- presence without trying to control it. Resistance feeds the whole thing and makes the thoughts stronger. Acceptance and surrender with awareness lets some steam let off from the head and the thoughts eventually lose energy. Same with intense emotions. They just really want presence then even the worst of feelings can be diffused and even enjoyed. More and more getting the sense of needing to simplify life to make room for more presence. But sometimes those are just thoughts that are trying to control everything too (how do I control my life so I can wake up faster?).

By the way, have you heard of eft technique? If not watch some videos on utube, it's very simple but very effective. Helps reduse the tension and free some emotional energy. You may experiment with that. It works. It helps with dealing with intense emotions, by redusing them.
I have heard of it but haven't tried it yet. I am using the Healing Codes, which are in a related realm, and they work when I do them. Thanks for suggestion, maybe will try EFT too one day.

Love,
D

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Re: Durian, what brings you here?

Postby Ilona » Tue Feb 07, 2012 9:14 pm

(how do I control my life so I can wake up faster?).
very interesting thought,
So how do you control and how do you wake up, if there is no you at all?

Notice, that noticing is just happening. Focussing is happening, observation is happening and no one is doing any of it. It's all life expressing as this. :)
Seeing is also simply happening.

Is there a 'me' that wakes up?
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Re: Durian, what brings you here?

Postby durian » Wed Feb 08, 2012 8:55 am

very interesting thought,
So how do you control and how do you wake up, if there is no you at all?

I have no idea. I love the idea that there is no me. But the feeling of control is so strong in the body...how can the 'controller' be an illusion? But I can't seem to stop the control any more than I can stop anything else (like a thought) so it makes sense that it is happening on its own...but makes sense is different than 100% sure!!

Notice, that noticing is just happening. Focussing is happening, observation is happening and no one is doing any of it. It's all life expressing as this. :)
Seeing is also simply happening.

Noticing, controlling, etc. all just happening... Sometimes I can taste that for a few seconds. Enough to believe it's possible to have a shift in perspective, but the other perspective is so strong I have no idea how it will lose its grip.

Is there a 'me' that wakes up?
There is someone sitting here typing this, focussing on the computer, that wants to wake up. The sense of it (or maybe the convincingness of the character 'me') is so strong—even though logically it doesn't make sense since I can't find a 'me' when I really look behind the thoughts or feelings (but it sure seems there when i *don't* look behind them!). So the character really wants to see the illusion of her character, which I guess is kind of funny. OK that's actually making me a little dizzy...time to lie down & sleep. :)

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Re: Durian, what brings you here?

Postby Ilona » Wed Feb 08, 2012 10:50 pm

Yes, there is a body sitting and typing. Thought comes up, fingers type. There are feelings and sensations happening + labbeing of the mind which is happening simultaniously.

Does any of that require a 'me'?
Does breathing require a doer of breathing?
Does controlling require a doer of controlling?
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Re: Durian, what brings you here?

Postby durian » Thu Feb 09, 2012 9:51 am

Yes, there is a body sitting and typing. Thought comes up, fingers type. There are feelings and sensations happening + labbeing of the mind which is happening simultaniously.

Does any of that require a 'me'?
Does breathing require a doer of breathing?
Does controlling require a doer of controlling?


When I first read this in the morning, it hit me very deeply for a moment.

The rest of the day I have been pondering this: I can see that the feelings/sensations/breather do not require a 'me'. But the labeling/doer/controller part is harder. I can experience the body/mind sometimes as sensory-input-filtering machine and it is not in control of the situation it finds itself in, the thoughts, feelings, etc. at any given time. BUT when I throw the 'doing' in, I get lost. If I am standing somewhere and experiencing all the passively received sensory input that is one thing. But as soon as there is volition to do something, like walk across the room, then I don't see it clearly anymore because the volition seems like 'me'.

:]

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Re: Durian, what brings you here?

Postby Ilona » Thu Feb 09, 2012 11:21 am

Ok, a test for a doer today.
When you walk from a to b, is there a doer of walking? Is there an I that is walking? Does body walk by itself or you need to do something to make it walk? If so how do you do that if while walking you think about everything else exept how one leg goes in front of the other.

Washing dishes, is there a doer there? Test it.
Going to sleep- is there a doer of sleeping?
Eating- is it automatic or there is a doer of eating.
And so on.


Look for the doer. Can it be found anywhere other than in thoughts ABOUT a doer? Here is the illusion, that we are talking about.
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Re: Durian, what brings you here?

Postby durian » Thu Feb 09, 2012 8:38 pm

There is no 'I' that is walking or sleeping or doing dishes or eating, but I still imagine an 'I' who decides to do these things and who has an opinion of what they feel like or how they relate to herself.

To clarify my confusion: I am seeing 3 categories at the moment: (1) sensory perception: easy to see there's no 'me' there. (2) actions: harder but with your words above I can also see (sometimes) how there is no doer of the actions. The words 'reacting to the environment' come up for both (1) and (2) and I can understand and occasionally experience how this is impersonal. (3) volition: this is where I'm stuck the most, the mental impulse to decide to do an action, that's what sets the body in motion to begin with (I think). It very hard to not see the deciding process as 'me'. I mean, thoughts come and go so maybe these are all just thoughts anyway...reactions to preferences, imaginings about futures, etc. But still: a strong idea of a 'me' that decides to type right now.

Thanks!!

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Re: Durian, what brings you here?

Postby Ilona » Thu Feb 09, 2012 8:53 pm

thank you for clarification. you are stuck in idea that there is free will and choice. great! but have a look closer. if you look at human organism as a biological computer, brain calculates the stimulus, compares to the past experiences and makes a choice based on what happened in the past. choice happens automatically also. there is no such thing as free will. when you want to have fruit, it's the preferences that decide, the programs that run in they system. there is no I that chooses it only appears that there is a chooser, because of the story that mind constructs after the choice. nothing is random.
watch this video, it's great and the experiment at the end is the best. http://youtu.be/8Biv_8xjj8E

choice is, you isn't. all is happening effortlessly.
Truth realized will set you free.
http://ilonaciunaite.com/book

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Re: Durian, what brings you here?

Postby durian » Fri Feb 10, 2012 7:39 pm

you are stuck in idea that there is free will and choice. great!
Yes, this sounds accurate. :D Thanks for putting it so clearly.

but have a look closer. if you look at human organism as a biological computer, brain calculates the stimulus, compares to the past experiences and makes a choice based on what happened in the past. choice happens automatically also.
My brain has been computing this possibility. ;) From this perspective it's easier to see how choice can also be just reacting to other things, not anything independent in itself. Even my choice to come to this forum and talk to you was just due to past experiences. This is getting slightly easier to see today.

there is no such thing as free will. when you want to have fruit, it's the preferences that decide, the programs that run in they system. there is no I that chooses it only appears that there is a chooser, because of the story that mind constructs after the choice. nothing is random.
I hope I will do OK expressing the confusion and not sounding like I want to get into a philosophy discussion here: i'm not sure where (if) responsibility comes in. If there is no free will, does that mean everything is predetermined and there's no need to try and go in any direction? Is a sense of responsibility for my actions or not having a sense of responsibility, just happening outside of my control along with everything else? Maybe the effort I'm putting in to waking up is also just happening based on the circumstances and there is no control over my character's story in relation to waking up. But I am still stuck in the feeling that it can't be that simple, that some attention to 'right effort' is needed. For example, there are often the instructions on LU to let go of other practices and focus on this Q&A and make it the #1 priority in the life. So it would seem we need to choose our priorities to affect the outcome. I'm still not seeing a big enough picture I suspect.

watch this video, it's great and the experiment at the end is the best. http://youtu.be/8Biv_8xjj8E
Thanks, will make time for this later today. :)

choice is, you isn't. all is happening effortlessly.
So 'I' don't have a choice, but the choices are computed and decided on by life. Will chew on this (not like I have a choice!)...

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Re: Durian, what brings you here?

Postby Ilona » Fri Feb 10, 2012 7:51 pm

it is so simple that mind does not want to accept it. it is used to complicating everything. it is way much simpler that you think. the simplest thing ever. let this in.
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Re: Durian, what brings you here?

Postby durian » Sat Feb 11, 2012 5:34 am

Yeah probably so. But then, I don't have a choice whether my mind will accept it, do i? :D :D I don't have a choice whether to let it in, but then I didn't have a choice to attract that statement from you to let it in, so who knows what can happen! (I hope that last sentence made any sense.)

The experiment at the end was great: pretty convincing that what appears like conscious choice is just the end result of an unconscious process. Of course that was a study on a video on youtube and not direct experience, but it is gradually sinking in a bit. Like it is logical, so the brain can actually get on board with it and I start to feel less resistance to it. I can tell that I already feel less attached to what other people are doing since they are just going along for their own ride, but the test is whether this will apply to myself. :P

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