Durian, what brings you here?

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durian
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Re: Durian, what brings you here?

Postby durian » Wed Feb 01, 2012 8:04 am

First of all, I woke up in the middle of the night last night and read this and went back to sleep again. Then I had a dream that something happened and I found out I didn't have very long to live. My boyfriend was heartbroken. We were both very upset and wanted to spend all our time together that I had left, doing lots of meditation (though i was trying to change the prognosis with the power of consciousness). I think the dream may have been pointing to one thing I would lose...him. Or if I died, he would lose me too, causing pain.

Tell me, what would be lost if all assumed identity would be seen as not real?
Probably a lot of tension and suffering.

What is it that you want to hold on?
Relationship. Appearances. Not being humiliated.

What are you trying to save from death? What is there to die?
The separate sense of self. It seems like such a precious thing—even though it causes so much suffering, it is majorly clung to like it is the most important thing ever. That is pretty weird, but that's what's true for me. The sense that "I" exist is what I am holding onto that I don't want to die.

Let's say you are a small child and believe in tooth fairy. One day you find out it wasn't true- no tooth fairies are real. Does that mean that tooth fairy dies? How does it affect the story of her? How does it affect you as a child?
The tooth fairy doesn't die because she wasn't alive, just a fantasy, so once I realized she was just a fantasy, it doesn't seem like she dies. And I lose interest in the story. As a child I don't think it affected me that much. But then I think of when my dad died when I was younger. This was not the same situation. I still think of him like he existed. But then no one told me he was just a story.

The fear is real. It's a protection mechanism. It works perfectly and does it's job. It's like an iron lock on a door that does not allow one go into unknown, unsafe, unpredicted. What is there to protect? When you think about loosing identity, what do you think that get's lost? Dig deeper here.
What the dream brought up for me that I was thinking about today, is that I would lose relationships that I am very attached to. In fact this is one thing that drives me to want to wake up — if you find someone you love so much that you want to be together till the end, well then there's the end and one person is left alone. This seems devastating and I don't want that to be my story. I want something else besides that end.
Also I might hurt other people if they would lose me. I would lose associations, history. Also I wonder if I would I be able to function and take care of myself.

And meet fear with curiosity, you do not need to fear the fear itself, just like you don't need to fear lock on the door, you can observe it from distance. Fear is not here to harm you, but it can be great teacher.
I have felt some pretty extreme fear. I live in fear. It is a common reality for me. Like living in a state of constant emergency, always trying to manage it with some technique or other so it doesn't wipe me out. It's one reason why I find it so hard to check in about these Qs when I am so busy: it is not just that I am busy, it's that when I am busy I don't have as much time to calm myself down and I feel very tense and anxious most of the time and don't see much space for something new to happen. But maybe this is just a belief and so I am still coming back every day! :) <3

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Re: Durian, what brings you here?

Postby Ilona » Wed Feb 01, 2012 8:51 pm

The tooth fairy doesn't die because she wasn't alive, just a fantasy, so once I realized she was just a fantasy, it doesn't seem like she dies. And I lose interest in the story.
I/ me is not alive either, it's only a belief in a fairy tale. A belief that durian is real, when it's only a character in the story. Just like fairy.
There is nothing behind those words that is real.
I/me= zero.
None at all.

And once it's seen, the I does not die, there is no I, and there never was.

What feelings come up righ here?


Because there is no I in real life, nothing changes when it's seen- story goes on as it did, relationships do not suffer from that, in fact the attachment falls and real love is freed. But I can't tell you that, you need to see it for yourself.
What changes is the feeling inside- no more owner of the story, there is freedom to experience whatever comes up without judgement. Life goes on as it does, but psychological suffering starts to drop.
There is this body named durian that is taking perfect care of itself with or without belief in separate entity that drives it.

So face that fear, look, what's behind it?

Don't be afraid to question this assumption of separate self. Get to the bottom of it. Look with senses, don't think about it. Test it in real life. Trust that all that does not serve this life for is going to fall of. Like that constant state of emergency. I know what it's like and I don't miss it for a second.

Be brave, durian. Look behind that fear of yours, tell me what you see.
Truth realized will set you free.
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Re: Durian, what brings you here?

Postby durian » Thu Feb 02, 2012 2:47 am

I/ me is not alive either, it's only a belief in a fairy tale. A belief that durian is real, when it's only a character in the story. Just like fairy.
There is nothing behind those words that is real.
I/me= zero.
None at all.
And once it's seen, the I does not die, there is no I, and there never was.
What feelings come up righ here?

The first time I read this earlier today I felt some relief and excitement. Later now I feel relief and more a little dizzy or disoriented, a little more spacious in the head—which can make me feel kind of dizzy if I'm focusing, but if i sit quietly and don't try to focus then it is more pleasant and calm. Like a fist in the head unclenching a little.

So face that fear, look, what's behind it?
Sometimes I am looking at it from the perspective of energy psychology...past traumas and PTSD type of stuff...things happen, system freaks out and energetically timelessly gets stuck there. And I can relate to this perspective. But then sometimes like right now if I just sit still with the fear, i don't know if there is anything behind it... there is kind of a stillness or silence behind it. In fact maybe "nothing" is what the fear is related to. Void, annihilation (of sense of self).

Don't be afraid to question this assumption of separate self. Get to the bottom of it. Look with senses, don't think about it. Test it in real life.
I'm not sure how to test the assumption of a separate self in real life.

Trust that all that does not serve this life for is going to fall of. Like that constant state of emergency. I know what it's like and I don't miss it for a second.
I am so grateful for you knowing what it's like and being past it. And earlier I was reading another of your threads and there was a link to your blog where a person wrote that some long-time body pain caused by muscle tension from imagined control, guilt, etc. had dissipated. I get so overjoyed when I read things like that because I have explored so so many avenues for pain but ultimately it just feels like the pain of "me" and the only way out is out of "me" and anything else is a bandaid.

Be brave, durian. Look behind that fear of yours, tell me what you see.
I answered earlier but now I wonder what you mean by "behind". I am also seeing this relentless feeling that the suffering is never going to stop. Tension that just can't seem to let up. Mind always spinning, ticking, grabbing, on the story hamster wheel. Always when things get calm, it is ready to pump out some more suffering. To reinterpret some event to trigger feeling bad or to imagine some future negative outcome.

OK I'm kind of all over the place, but thanks for being here!
D

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Re: Durian, what brings you here?

Postby Ilona » Thu Feb 02, 2012 1:13 pm

i sit quietly and don't try to focus then it is more pleasant and calm. Like a fist in the head unclenching a little.
oh, great!
i don't know if there is anything behind it... there is kind of a stillness or silence behind it. In fact maybe "nothing" is what the fear is related to. Void, annihilation (of sense of self).
yes, you took a tiny peak, now look again, it does not need to be fear, you can look behind any feeling. just like that. yes, there is nothing there! nothing at all, isn't that freeing?

I am also seeing this relentless feeling that the suffering is never going to stop. Tension that just can't seem to let up. Mind always spinning, ticking, grabbing, on the story hamster wheel. Always when things get calm, it is ready to pump out some more suffering. To reinterpret some event to trigger feeling bad or to imagine some future negative outcome.
suffering is gonna be there until it's clearly seen that there is no sufferer! no one to own suffering. this might help you a little : http://markedeternal.blogspot.com/2011/ ... ferer.html to see where i'm pointing to.

once you read it, let me know what feelings come up.

you are doing great by the way, step by step we are getting closer. just trust the process, awakening is already happening, with or without your effort.

much love!
Truth realized will set you free.
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Re: Durian, what brings you here?

Postby durian » Fri Feb 03, 2012 8:55 am

I had an insightful morning today. I was realizing that for so many years I have been hard on myself for being in pain because at some point I realized I was doing it to myself (the contraction is an action, not a permanent condition). So therefore if I was in pain I was always doing something wrong, but I could never figure out how to really change what I was doing deeply enough. The attempted solutions have included many mindfulness-based approaches that try to use increased awareness to heal. But basically all this time I was realizing "I" was the problem, but I thought the solution was to change what "I" was doing (= control = always fails eventually) instead of see outside the "I"!!! So that was a freeing, relief-filled few hours that I had this morning. It also felt like if that insight was retained it could really ripple out into all parts of my life and there would be a lot less struggle and the direction would seem clearer.

Also this morning I had some experiences of sensation without the story, like pain without a story of what caused it and what it means and so it dissolves easily or doesn't bother me. That experience has come and gone over the years and it is always welcome but usually very short-lived.

Then I went to therapy. When I came in to the room I felt this strong tendency that I could not escape, to really identify with my suffering as the sufferer and I felt the relief start to slip away, and now by the end of the day I feel pretty tense and un-insightful and achy again.

yes, you took a tiny peak, now look again, it does not need to be fear, you can look behind any feeling. just like that. yes, there is nothing there! nothing at all, isn't that freeing?
Yes it is very freeing. Nothing is the coolest thing ever.

suffering is gonna be there until it's clearly seen that there is no sufferer! no one to own suffering. this might help you a little : http://markedeternal.blogspot.com/2011/ ... ferer.html to see where i'm pointing to. once you read it, let me know what feelings come up.
I read this early this morning and now it's almost midnight. I have to remember to respond when things are more fresh! But I skimmed again. I can relate to some of his experiences, especially of being on the edge of seeing, but doubting whether he has gotten anything. So since I could relate to his process, it felt hopeful to see him succeed. Like, could that be me? But scary to even consider that, after being stuck for so long.

you are doing great by the way, step by step we are getting closer. just trust the process, awakening is already happening, with or without your effort.
Thank you. But...I have had several teachers, mentors & guides over the years say I'm going so fast and advance so quickly and I'm so smart and bright and quick at whatever I'm doing and I have great potential...and then I don't finish anything or ultimately get anywhere...so it is hard for me to take compliments here. There have been so many glimpses and fallings over the years that it will take a lot for me to believe I'm really making progress beyond the rollercoaster. :D I hope that doesn't sound too pessimistic (because I am soo grateful for this help) but I'm just trying to be honest. It does feel good when your words can penetrate for a while without me having to practice some technique. Like you aren't "doing" anything but they are able to loosen something that was ready and waiting to be loosened. And I like the idea of trusting this process that doesn't depend on my effort!!! I am appreciating this process but I am still a self-skeptic. :P

And a late happy happy birthday!

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Re: Durian, what brings you here?

Postby Ilona » Fri Feb 03, 2012 2:02 pm

.so it is hard for me to take compliments here.
that wasn't a compliment at all. you are getting closer with every question answered and as you say,
So that was a freeing, relief-filled few hours that I had this morning. It also felt like if that insight was retained it could really ripple out into all parts of my life and there would be a lot less struggle and the direction would seem clearer.
and notice that yourself. all good. keep looking at what is going on with open mind. i would not pay you compliments, i know that does not take you anywhere.

so..
So since I could relate to his process, it felt hopeful to see him succeed. Like, could that be me? But scary to even consider that, after being stuck for so long.
of course it is difficult to take a fresh look at what is, when all your life you have believed otherwise. just notice how your body responds, see how feelings are connected to thought, look into it and keep digging.

let's go back one little step, you still haven't answered the question- what do you know for sure as in 100% true. this is a very important question. so dig here and answer with whole honesty, not just trying to be honest.
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Re: Durian, what brings you here?

Postby durian » Sat Feb 04, 2012 3:15 am

that wasn't a compliment at all. you are getting closer with every question answered and as you say,
"So that was a freeing, relief-filled few hours that I had this morning. It also felt like if that insight was retained it could really ripple out into all parts of my life and there would be a lot less struggle and the direction would seem clearer."
and notice that yourself. all good. keep looking at what is going on with open mind. i would not pay you compliments, i know that does not take you anywhere.

Thanks. :) I did have more insight yesterday than usual, I can't deny that! And today I noticed that while no major insights, I am watching myself do the same decision-making drama which is painful but there is not the same level of anxiety around it as usual. That is a bit weird.

let's go back one little step, you still haven't answered the question- what do you know for sure as in 100% true. this is a very important question. so dig here and answer with whole honesty, not just trying to be honest.
I have no idea how to answer this question. I don't know if I know anything as 100% true. Even "nothing" as an answer is still just a guess from my head. The funny thing is that when I hear that question, the first response is that "I exist"—but that seems really ironic since the point of this inquiry process is to see that "I" doesn't exist! That's why I thought it was a trick question at first. Still clueless...

Also I'm not sure what you mean about the difference between answering with whole honesty and just trying to be honest. I would love to clear that up because honesty seems so important here.

<3

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Re: Durian, what brings you here?

Postby durian » Sat Feb 04, 2012 9:10 am

Part 2: Notable experience dancing tonight: a man was guiding a "spirit (ecstatic) dance". I was reminding myself that there is nothing behind the sound/feeling/people/etc (have been playing with this). When he mentioned letting go of the story, I had an awareness similar to right after a car accident in 1998 when my neck pain started—i saw my "story" going into my neck (this time, saw my story is my neck problems). After that I had an experience of feeling very open in a kind of "connected" way while dancing for a few minutes, that reminded me a bit of back when I used to take drugs and go to raves.

Goodnight to me and good morning to you!
D

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Re: Durian, what brings you here?

Postby Ilona » Sat Feb 04, 2012 4:09 pm

yes, honesty is a key here. if your answer comes from full honesty, it feels right and complete. if it doesn't, you can sense that little bit of doubt, small lie, something hidden and not open.
I have no idea how to answer this question. I don't know if I know anything as 100% true. Even "nothing" as an answer is still just a guess from my head. The funny thing is that when I hear that question, the first response is that "I exist"—but that seems really ironic since the point of this inquiry process is to see that "I" doesn't exist! That's why I thought it was a trick question at first. Still clueless...
BINGO! I exist, that is the answer i was waiting for, obvious one as well :)
now i really need you to focus on that answer. if you sit quiet for a while with closed eyes and notice breathing. is it happening by itself or is there an i that breathes? is i doing the breathing? can body breath without an identity?

once you notice thoughts and feelings about 'the breather' turn your focus to the sense of aliveness, receptivity, existence, beingness. see if there is an i in between experience experienced and experiencer. notice sounds, is there an i that is hearing or is it just hearing happening?

notice how mind labels whatever is happening. and notice that i is just a construct of language, i breath, i feel tingling sensation, i feel warm/ cold, i hear car passing by and so on can be simply said without the i-- breathing is happening, tingling sensation is happening, feeling of warmth is happening, hearing is happening... and so on.


now look at the 'i exist' and see if there is an i that is doing any existing, or existence just is.

write right after you done this exercise.

looking forward to your reply.
sending love.
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Re: Durian, what brings you here?

Postby durian » Sun Feb 05, 2012 7:47 am

yes, honesty is a key here. if your answer comes from full honesty, it feels right and complete. if it doesn't, you can sense that little bit of doubt, small lie, something hidden and not open.
Thanks, helpful.

"I have no idea how to answer this question. I don't know if I know anything as 100% true. Even "nothing" as an answer is still just a guess from my head. The funny thing is that when I hear that question, the first response is that "I exist"—but that seems really ironic since the point of this inquiry process is to see that "I" doesn't exist! That's why I thought it was a trick question at first. Still clueless..."
BINGO! I exist, that is the answer i was waiting for, obvious one as well :)

That's funny, since it was my first gut answer. But of course my mind convinced me it was the "wrong" answer because it didn't fit with the answer we thought it should be!

Warning: today was a difficult day for me. I woke up feeling light and flowy and happy, and I read this message and was super excited to do the practice. But I knew I wouldn't have time to write, slept late, had to get going, so put it off till later. Very long tiring day and was frustrated and disappointed the whole day because I'd rather have been doing this exercise, and the flow and lightness left and I felt like (as usual) I had messed up the process. I tried to remind myself that "I" am not in control of the process and today's timing was just part of it. But as I look at the following answers it might be an example of "trying to be honest" instead of honesty. I will do this exercise again tomorrow but wanted to write something tonight. If I don't feel 100% honest answer should I just say I'm not ready to answer yet?

now i really need you to focus on that answer. if you sit quiet for a while with closed eyes and notice breathing. is it happening by itself or is there an i that breathes? is i doing the breathing? can body breath without an identity?
It seems to be happening by itself but where I see the "me" is in "the breath controller". Wherever it feels like my breath is controlled, interrupted, held, shallowed, etc., basically the flow is interrupted with control, that's what I identify as "me"—which is the thoughts/emotions I guess—so not the breather but the breath-interrupter...the interference is where I see the identity...but I do not see an "I" that does the breathing itself, only an "I" that gets in the way. So I'm not sure if I just made any sense in relation to your question!

once you notice thoughts and feelings about 'the breather' turn your focus to the sense of aliveness, receptivity, existence, beingness. see if there is an i in between experience experienced and experiencer. notice sounds, is there an i that is hearing or is it just hearing happening?
I'm not sure about this one yet. So far there does seem to be an experiencer that is observing the experience...but maybe that is not experiencer but labeler of experience. At a certain point where I got very calm and next thing I knew I was back and had no idea if I had fallen asleep or just gotten really still. I'm not sure how to tell sometimes.

notice how mind labels whatever is happening. and notice that i is just a construct of language, i breath, i feel tingling sensation, i feel warm/ cold, i hear car passing by and so on can be simply said without the i-- breathing is happening, tingling sensation is happening, feeling of warmth is happening, hearing is happening... and so on.
Yes. I see this, that I am almost always making this personal. For some reason sound is easiest for me to get out of it with. I sometimes experience sound as more like vibrations or waves or whatever than a solid thing that I label. But the rest of the senses, yeah, almost always personal. I will watch this.

now look at the 'i exist' and see if there is an i that is doing any existing, or existence just is.
The sense of 'i exist' is slightly less strong but only slightly. I will look at this again tomorrow.

Thank you for the support.
<3

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Re: Durian, what brings you here?

Postby Ilona » Sun Feb 05, 2012 9:50 am

not the breather but the breath-interrupter...the interference is where I see the identity...but I do not see an "I" that does the breathing itself, only an "I" that gets in the way. So I'm not sure if I just made any sense in relation to your question!
Ok, look really hard at top right corner of monitor.

Can you notice how muscles around eyes get tense? Does that have anything to do with clear seeing?

Listen really intently to the sounds outside.

Can you notice how muscles around ears get tense? And does that have anything to do with clear hearing? So that tention is labelled 'me'.

The I that gets in a way --it's just a thought appearing efortlesly and thought labelling this tention 'me'

Labeller of experience is the automatics mechanism of mind.
That is it's function, job, which it does perfectly. Can you see that? Can you appreciate how perfect it is?

What makes a sense personal?
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Re: Durian, what brings you here?

Postby durian » Sun Feb 05, 2012 6:30 pm

Ok, look really hard at top right corner of monitor.
Can you notice how muscles around eyes get tense? Does that have anything to do with clear seeing?

Yes the muscles get tense and no this doesn't help clear seeing. Clear seeing is passive/receptive.

Listen really intently to the sounds outside.
Can you notice how muscles around ears get tense? And does that have anything to do with clear hearing?

Yes the muscles get tense, and no, nothing to do with clear hearing.

So that tention is labelled 'me'.
It seems that way...the tension in the body that seems to cause pain, my pain.

The I that gets in a way --it's just a thought appearing efortlesly and thought labelling this tention 'me'
So not something to try and control my way out of... :P

Labeller of experience is the automatics mechanism of mind.
That is it's function, job, which it does perfectly. Can you see that? Can you appreciate how perfect it is?

I can see the successful performance of some brain function, but I don't appreciate how perfect it is, if it is getting in the way of direct experience and causing suffering. Especially the thought appearing effortlessly and labeling the tension 'me'.

What makes a sense personal?
It's not the sense that is personal but the reactions to it of tension.

<3

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Re: Durian, what brings you here?

Postby Ilona » Sun Feb 05, 2012 7:13 pm

So that tention is labelled 'me'.
It seems that way...the tension in the body that seems to cause pain, my pain.
oh yes, the pain becomes MY PAIN an everything appears wrong, as it should not be happening, why me, grrrrrr.
only because this little confusion in a head, a belief, that there is this entity me that owns the pain.

i ask you now to look very closely at this moment right now. this. is anything wrong with this? is this moment somehow incomplete? does it need anything else then what is? if so what? don't think about it, simply look at what is happening right here right now.
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Re: Durian, what brings you here?

Postby durian » Sun Feb 05, 2012 9:37 pm

oh yes, the pain becomes MY PAIN an everything appears wrong, as it should not be happening, why me, grrrrrr.
only because this little confusion in a head, a belief, that there is this entity me that owns the pain.

"Why me, grrrrrr"—you took the words right out of my mouth! Yes, I notice that this little shift reduces suffering so quickly and easily and much more than hours of whatever else I try to do. But I can't will the shift to happen.

i ask you now to look very closely at this moment right now. this. is anything wrong with this? is this moment somehow incomplete? does it need anything else then what is? if so what? don't think about it, simply look at what is happening right here right now.
What feels wrong is the feeling that I need to get out of what I am feeling, the resistance to what I am feeling. Because of this I can't seem to overcome that the feeling is "mine".

Thanks.

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Re: Durian, what brings you here?

Postby Ilona » Sun Feb 05, 2012 9:57 pm

But I can't will the shift to happen.
no of course you can not. you do not exist as a manager of what is. there is no self at all. just what is. and this shift is just happening. life is not expressing through you, but as you. as this.
What feels wrong is the feeling that I need to get out of what I am feeling, the resistance to what I am feeling. Because of this I can't seem to overcome that the feeling is "mine".
i see. yes, the tension is here and 'you' want to get out of it. but take a little step towards this tension, not trying to avoid it, bring it closer. ask it, literally, what is it trying to show you. allow it to unfold.
resistance is a sign that there are some conflicting beliefs in the system. ask it to reveal what it is. make friends with resistance, thank it. it is only trying to help by pointing to unresolved stuff.

once you do that, look at feeling again. notice, is it personal or is it a tension in the body that is labelled as personal? feeling + label.

take a look at where feelings come from. can they be controlled, willed away? see, they come for a visit to be felt. and if for years and years you have been saying no to them, they have been stored inside. all they want to do is leave the system. is it ok for you to feel them so they can leave/ be released? see what happens if you give permission for the feeling to just be here. watch it as it comes up and just feel it without holding back. look behind the feeling, is there a feeler? what is there?

sending love. and a hug.
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