Durian, what brings you here?

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durian
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Re: Durian, what brings you here?

Postby durian » Wed May 09, 2012 7:30 am

it's like watching a movie and getting sucked into it. once you look, you know- it's a movie, not real life. so once you look you know, it's a story, not reality..
But in the case of a movie, it is very quick to snap out of it once you decide to look, because you never actually think it's real once you remind yourself you got sucked into a movie. After all, you see the separation between your organism and the movie screen/TV/computer. In 'my' case, it's not so quick to snap out of it.

also, whatever has been repressed will be coming up to be released. beliefs will still be operating until they fall off or are inspected. there are multiple tools to clean up the system from old rooted beliefs. more beliefs- more confusion, more suffering, more getting lost in the story.
Would this be an example of something meditation is useful for, or other related 'techniques'? Like for changing programming?

it is not a state of lightness. it is not a state at all. it is knowing. like you know that santa is not real. so if you get lost and check, it is always available.
Well when the grip on story and I is loosened, the body feels physically lighter, like a weight taken off. Is that still a state?

now tell me with whole honesty, can you believe that there is a self/ me, that is in charge and control of life.
No. Can't find it anywhere. But damn, this running on automatic thing creates a really convincing illusion. I, I, I, making choices, sensing experiences, but when I (lol) try to locate the I, it's un-locatable. But what if that is because what is looking can't see itself?
tell me as well if getting sucked into a story is not on automatic?
Sometimes it's obvious how things are on automatic (in that case it's obvious that getting sucked into a story is on automatic), but oftentimes it's not. Right now it is a very plausible theory but not quite a direct experience.

Thanks

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Ilona
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Re: Durian, what brings you here?

Postby Ilona » Wed May 09, 2012 8:24 am

Focus on direct experience now.
Describe it as it is for 10 minutes using words I, me

Like- I am sitting on... I am hearing...,

Then for next 10 minutes describe the direct experience without using words I, me.

Like- thought comes up, fingers are typing, hearing the sound of...


After its done, write what you noticed.

Much love.

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durian
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Re: Durian, what brings you here?

Postby durian » Wed May 09, 2012 9:03 am

The first part of using I and me, a lot of tension and pain. Headache getting worse and worse, really wound up, inner turmoil, torment, torture, feeling desperate. The second part of words without I or me, the tension started to relax, pain started to dissipate, becoming calm, going into deep relaxation, almost fell asleep (which is nice because it's 1 am!).

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Re: Durian, what brings you here?

Postby Ilona » Wed May 09, 2012 9:24 am

Rest, sweet durian. Let's talk more tomorrow.

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Re: Durian, what brings you here?

Postby durian » Wed May 09, 2012 7:23 pm

OK, it's tomorrow. :]

I've been reflecting on the exercise and how much suffering is in the I perspective. The body makes the difference really obvious.

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Re: Durian, what brings you here?

Postby Ilona » Wed May 09, 2012 7:40 pm

yes, the body reacts- it tenses up or relaxes depending on thoughts. if the thoughts are believed, the body shows that clearly. learning to listen to your own body is learning to read it's wisdom.

now listen to the body and tell me what it says-
i does not exist. there is no me at all in reality, it's only a label.

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durian
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Re: Durian, what brings you here?

Postby durian » Thu May 10, 2012 6:43 am

The body, as well as i know how to read it, says it's true. The shoulders drop, the breath deepens, the system relaxes, the spine feels more in alignment. Calmness. Lies and untruths are stressful and not calm.

I remember at the beginning of our conversation, you saying something like 'what if i told you that there was no self, it never existed, etc.' and i vividly remember a deep feeling of relief in the body.

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Re: Durian, what brings you here?

Postby Ilona » Thu May 10, 2012 7:41 pm

The body, as well as i know how to read it, says it's true. The shoulders drop, the breath deepens, the system relaxes, the spine feels more in alignment. Calmness. Lies and untruths are stressful and not calm.
great observation. :)

looks like you can answer the 5 questions. just write what feels true.


1) Is there a 'me', at all, anywhere, in any way, shape or form? Was there ever?
2) Explain in detail what the illusion of separate self is, when it starts and how it works.
3) How does it feel to see this?
4) How would you describe it to somebody who has never heard about this illusion.
5) What was the last bit that pushed you over, made you look?
take your time.

much love.

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durian
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Re: Durian, what brings you here?

Postby durian » Sat May 12, 2012 7:00 am

Thanks! I will get to this soon. :)

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Re: Durian, what brings you here?

Postby durian » Sun May 13, 2012 3:20 am

1) Is there a 'me', at all, anywhere, in any way, shape or form? Was there ever?

No. Not in actuality as an entity. Only as a concept.

2) Explain in detail what the illusion of separate self is, when it starts and how it works.

The separate self is a construct of the mind/brain/organism. Babies are born without distinction of separation, and then at a certain age in toddlerhood, their brains develop the capacity to distinguish self from other. This is reinforced by everyone around them and especially with language. The sensory experiences are filtered and the data arranged to define a separate personality when they are just really operating as part of a big supercomputer of reactions to data based on conditions, running on automatic.

3) How does it feel to see this?

It is a relief, it is exciting. There is still tension and fear in the system but there is less constriction around it and a new sense of wonder. It is like all these techniques and methods and theories and practices, as soon as you apply a concept to your problems, you are already—as soon as there is belief in ‘you’ who has a problem that needs concepts applied to it in order to solve it, things just get more and more complicated. It is such a relief to realize that the truth is simpler than anything, does not require any complex calculations or intellectual feats or even mystical capabilities. Not saying it is always there to see but just the realization of this simplicity is such a relief.

4) How would you describe it to somebody who has never heard about this illusion.

There is so much pain in identifying as a separate self, in believing that the story of you and your life has any substance worth holding onto. This makes misery. Not only in the mind but in the body, because they are not separate. Untrue beliefs (such as the usefulness of worrying about the past or future) contract the system, and the body pays the price with tension and pain. Hell is not some place we might go when we die, hell is right now believing that the stories in the mind (‘my’ mind or someone else’s) are real. Relief from hell is seeing how there is no one there to take anything personally!

5) What was the last bit that pushed you over, made you look?
You posted a video by Gary Weber and I watched that, which led to watching another of his videos. I suspect that I had already looked in some way, but the mind was intellectually holding out due to certain intellectual doubts. Gary mentioned a couple things that caused a couple lingering holding points to loosen. One was his mention about the idea of the perception of self evolving in humans’ evolutionary past as a means of communication, and the discussion about how the image of self has actually been shown to be pieced together by several different parts of the brain serving different purposes! I had heard people talk about how we learn about the self culturally, but I knew it was also related to neurological development (hardwired), so even just hearing the possibility of how it had been an evolutionary adaptation, and how different parts of the brain were working together to create this perception) just made something click somehow—that it is a biological part of our organism that we would filter reality that way.

The other thing was when he mentioned that he notices a connection between when his body is having low blood sugar and when thought activity increases in him. This helped let go of a doubt related to why there was periods of greater and lesser peacefulness or seeing. In 'my' particular organism, there has been such a long history of health issues, and there has been a common connection between seeing more clearly when the body is more in harmony. But then the reverse would happen too. So was the seeing real or was it always dependent on 'my' state of health or harmony? Chicken or egg or egg or chicken or chickenegg or eggchicken or chickeggen or egicken? And on and on. Hearing Gary talk about this made it just be like, both are true. Perhaps it IS true that the seeing is muddied when there is gunk in the pipes literally. It is just how the computer of ‘me’ is responding to conditions. It doesn’t make the truth that was seen, any less real, and something of that somehow remains in the background. So there has been a (VERY) gradual acceptance of truth having been seen even though operations are often not running like a well-oiled machine.

For some reason the mind keeps taking itself back to a memory of being in preschool and waiting to find out if I was ready to graduate and go upstairs to kindergarten. :P

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durian
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Re: Durian, what brings you here?

Postby durian » Sun May 13, 2012 3:22 am

In the answer to #3, "you are already—" should have said "you are already lost—"!

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Re: Durian, what brings you here?

Postby Ilona » Sun May 13, 2012 7:42 am

Thank you for answers, yes you are ready to go upstairs to kindergarden!
Great stuff. Lots of appreciation to Gary weber from my side too.
I'll get my other guides look through your answers and see if they have any more questions for you. I feel delighted for you, this is a great new opening for new way of living.
Much love!

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durian
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Re: Durian, what brings you here?

Postby durian » Mon May 14, 2012 1:14 am

Thanks,
Grateful for your love and patience through all this!
:)

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Re: Durian, what brings you here?

Postby Ilona » Mon May 14, 2012 11:43 pm

You are very welcome. It was an epic thread. You were so steady in your tiny baby steps. I appreciate that you kept going. And it does not matter how long it takes.

This is not an end. It's a beginning of freeing mind from all kinds of beliefs. Now when the core has been knocked out the rest will start falling off.

I'm so happy for you.
Please find me in Facebook and I'll ad you to aftercare group. you can meet new friends and help is always just a post away.
http://www.facebook.com/profile.php?id=100001758165632

Lots of love.

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durian
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Re: Durian, what brings you here?

Postby durian » Tue May 15, 2012 12:24 am

This is not an end. It's a beginning of freeing mind from all kinds of beliefs.
yes, haha, that is why instead of graduating it feels like going from preschool to kindergarten! :D

Now when the core has been knocked out the rest will start falling off.
Sounds good!

See you on fb.


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