Durian, what brings you here?

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durian
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Re: Durian, what brings you here?

Postby durian » Fri Apr 06, 2012 6:12 pm

Next time there is some feeling that you are trying to control something, take a little pause and see if it's true. Is there a controller behind that feeling?
No, there is no controller behind the feeling. There is a feeling and also a belief that there is an 'I' to identify with it, a belief that the feeling is in time and part of a story, and the thoughts & beliefs about the feeling make more of the same or similar instead of letting it arise and pass. Been thinking today about "identifying" with the feeling: 'I'-dentify! A belief in 'I' actually 'dentifies' the feeling—makes a deeper groove/dent instead of letting it pass through! :)

Whatever feelings are arising they get labelled. And feeling of tention is labelled 'I am trying'
Test if it's true.

More of the same...this is the story put on top of the feeling. Intellectually this makes total sense and the experience is there in periods of relaxation and reflection, but in most of daily life it is elusive, which makes me want to only post here when I'm in a certain state/feeling relaxed or good. Wanting to question that belief too.

:)

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Re: Durian, what brings you here?

Postby Ilona » Sat Apr 07, 2012 10:39 am

can you look up and tell me what is it that you make happen, what is it that requires an effort and what is not on automatic. write what you feel 100% true.

sending love.

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durian
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Re: Durian, what brings you here?

Postby durian » Mon Apr 09, 2012 6:19 pm

Hi, sick at the moment. Will write more when feeling better, hopefully soon.
<3

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Re: Durian, what brings you here?

Postby Ilona » Mon Apr 09, 2012 6:22 pm

Hope you feel better soon. Sending lots of love your way.
It's body's way to get attention. Give it kind care.

We'll talk soon.

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Re: Durian, what brings you here?

Postby durian » Thu Apr 12, 2012 3:38 pm

Oh yeah baby, the body's way of getting attention...things needed to slow down and so they just had to. Body made it soooo clear!

can you look up and tell me what is it that you make happen, what is it that requires an effort and what is not on automatic. write what you feel 100% true.
Am feeling stuck with this question. Honestly don't know at the moment. There is nothing making an effort when I really look for it, no 'me' making all the efforts, but still there is the feeling of effort, of tension, of tiring goal-orientation.

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Re: Durian, what brings you here?

Postby Ilona » Thu Apr 12, 2012 9:18 pm

all this is just happening too.

the tension, the feeling of effort is labelled "me", but there is no one tensing, just feeling of tension passing by. this labelling goes on automatic, from habit, as it has never been inspected closely. all is just part of what is. and efforting including.

next time you catch that feeling of 'oh, no, this is hard', see if you can find that which is doing the efforting, pushing.
what do you find?

i see you are crossing nicely. :))
sending love.

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Re: Durian, what brings you here?

Postby durian » Fri Apr 13, 2012 6:14 pm

I cannot find that which is doing the efforting and pushing. But still suffering remains. There is a bit of taking less personally, sure. Perhaps there is no 'me' tensing but just the program is so strong and persistent that there is a lot left to run down...Not sure what you mean by crossing..? :) No major shift or anything. Got to point of total exhaustion and had to slow down, maybe I am resetting something. :P Wanting to slow life down for sure.

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Re: Durian, what brings you here?

Postby Ilona » Fri Apr 13, 2012 11:09 pm

next time suffering creeps in, catch that and see if there is suffering without the story about suffering. just really get to investigate it closely and with curiosity.
does body pain hurt i/me?

hope you feel better and thank the body for slowing down. rest and enjoy it.
the shift may be very subtle, there are no bright lights, just at some point the point of no return is crossed and after that there comes falling or clean up time... you may have not noticed when or how.

suffering is not gonna disappear for good immediately. what is learned is gonna need to get unlearned and there are lots of habits and thinking patterns that were not loaded in one day. so this process takes time.

can you answer this as truthfully as you can:
is there a self / i / me in reality in any form or shape? was there ever?

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Re: Durian, what brings you here?

Postby durian » Mon Apr 16, 2012 7:08 pm

Hi, it's been a few days but I've been feeling pretty dense.

next time suffering creeps in, catch that and see if there is suffering without the story about suffering. just really get to investigate it closely and with curiosity.
does body pain hurt i/me?

Suffering doesn't really creep in. It is there most of the time, with short breaks from suffering creeping in. :P
But, suffering is not there without the story of suffering. That seems clear. Story still going on a lot of the time so there is still a lot of suffering.

the shift may be very subtle, there are no bright lights, just at some point the point of no return is crossed and after that there comes falling or clean up time... you may have not noticed when or how.
Interesting. I suppose it's possible. Just don't know how to tell whether that's true in my case.

suffering is not gonna disappear for good immediately. what is learned is gonna need to get unlearned and there are lots of habits and thinking patterns that were not loaded in one day. so this process takes time.
Again it's hard to know where the line is. It seems very blurry.

can you answer this as truthfully as you can:
is there a self / i / me in reality in any form or shape? was there ever?

No solid shape of a self/i/me. Only the belief in or perception of a self, an attempt to hold it together into a solid thing. So I could say, there is still a perception of a self left, but whenever investigated it's shown to be just a perception. That's the best I can put it at the moment, because I have been feeling pretty low on the insight radar the past few days—a recognition that while there is still belief in story a lot, when investigated, it is not reality.

<3

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durian
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Re: Durian, what brings you here?

Postby durian » Mon Apr 16, 2012 8:15 pm

Just noticed a couple more things:
- that while there is suffering most of the time (tension/conflict), there is also an awareness that the difference between suffering and not is a very small one and can happen in a moment.
- that there is a belief that if i have really 'passed the point of no return' of seeing no self, that for example X problem will be solved, or X mental conflict or indecision will have gone away, and that's how I'll know.

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Re: Durian, what brings you here?

Postby Ilona » Mon Apr 16, 2012 10:45 pm

Good stuff that you brought that belief up.
No, seeing no self does not solve problems. Neither does it change what is.

Problem arises when there is confusion in the mind. Without conflicting beliefs there is no friction, there is no problem. Seeing no self does not solve problem. It becomes clear that there is no problem. That there never was a problem. It's all just thoughts passing by.

The next step here will be examination of beliefs that you hold around no self.
Bring them all up. One by one, from all the hidden corners of the mind.

What do you believe? What is not as it 'should' be? What needs to be changed, what needs to be held on?

List all what you believe with full intention and honesty.
Time to check the inventory..

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Re: Durian, what brings you here?

Postby durian » Tue Apr 17, 2012 8:11 am

Well today there was this meditation where i was trying to let everything be the way it is. then the thought, who/what is trying to let it be the way it is, anyway? and it was seen as a thought no important than another thought, and this big pressure came off and there was a couple hours of peace, giggliness & feeling of no friction (perfect word that you used). Ahhh those times are great. It has faded though...

The next step here will be examination of beliefs that you hold around no self.
Bring them all up. One by one, from all the hidden corners of the mind.
What do you believe? What is not as it 'should' be? What needs to be changed, what needs to be held on?
List all what you believe with full intention and honesty.
Time to check the inventory..


Not sure I understand the question, but I think you are asking what beliefs I have about what it is like to see no self? and what is wrong now that needs to be changed or held onto in order to be in the place I think I'm supposed to be with seeing it? Please help me make sure I understand this before inventorying. :)

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Re: Durian, what brings you here?

Postby Ilona » Tue Apr 17, 2012 9:47 am

yes, you got the question right.

and nice meditation. :))

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Re: Durian, what brings you here?

Postby durian » Wed Apr 18, 2012 6:24 am

Had another period of lightness after meditating tonight. Not that I really meditate, but more sit there and try not to do anything, which is just to say that I try to take a bit time out of my day to not be goal-oriented or strain for anything or spin the story, and it just happens to be on the floor with a blanket over my head...not sure if you can really call this meditating but nice things sometimes happen when enough time is dedicated to not trying to be anybody. :) But I want this to not require a blanket over my head!! :P

The next step here will be examination of beliefs that you hold around no self.
Bring them all up. One by one, from all the hidden corners of the mind.
What do you believe? What is not as it 'should' be? What needs to be changed, what needs to be held on?
List all what you believe with full intention and honesty.
Time to check the inventory..


Beliefs about seeing no self: The ‘I’ will not feel stressed!!! Things will be easier. [Note: things actually are easier than they were before, but not as easy as my fantasy]. There will be a lot less friction in the system—an experience that will seem ordinary rather than stand out as unique when it happens. There will be less anxiety and panic and worry and indecision. The lucid understandingness where I am actually thinking for myself will be more sustained, instead of brief bursts fading into cotton-headedness again. It will be natural to not resist the way it is. There will be more joy more of the time. There will be no identifying with a positive or negative reaction when I look in the mirror.

Right now, I believe there is too big a % of time spent in the head, deliberating over the story, with the body in physical pain and tension that is not from a real injury or disease—because it goes away in a moment when the mind stops the struggle/friction. The pain/tension is a big marker—it is like a big sign broadcasting the inner tension/struggle. Although lately sometimes there is inexplicable happiness for brief periods, but it fades.

There are some times when I go out into public and see everyone else in their stories too and don’t have to take any of it personally—then it is fun and no problem. But if I’m identified with my story and I meet up against other people’s stories and existences and I react to that, then it is literally exhausting being in public (or just to spend time with one person). Actually to be honest, if there is story identification then it is exhausting to just hang out with myself! If seeing is happening enough, then I imagine the switch will be flipped toward being consistently less drained by myself, my story, other people and their stories, and various situations.

There are too many intermittent “aha” moments that stand out from the usual everyday lower-level understanding—standout times of insight, lightness, and joy that contrast from the duller experience 99% of the time. It is a feeling like when some seeing or understanding is there, it is such a different experience, that if some point was really crossed, there would be access to that understanding much more of the time instead of feeling pretty brain-dead most of the time in comparison to that. Also I don’t relate to the fervor of other people who “cross” on the website and answer the questions like it’s the best thing ever and everything has majorly changed and they want to shout it from the rooftops. (Though I have to admit, things are gradually getting less serious.)

Currently, there’s a repeated need to notice the holding onto ‘me’ and see that it’s not there in a situation, rather than a nonstop knowing. This practice takes a lot of stress away, but it’s still a practice, not a flip that has switched for good.

So, essentially, I believe that at the right point, there will be a much greater % of the time spent in knowing, being, the now. Less sitting around wondering where that experience of ‘seeing’ from the other hour or day or week went and when it is coming back. I mean, I guess if ‘the Gate’ is the first step and not ‘ultimate enlightenment,’ then it makes sense that seeing would not be happening 100% of the time. But, I still imagine it would be much more than say, 1%.

There!! Back to you. Thank you. Was entertaining to write.

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Re: Durian, what brings you here?

Postby Ilona » Wed Apr 18, 2012 8:05 am

Thank you. Glad you enjoyed this.

Yes, stepping through the gate is a first step. Not the total complete liberation. It's when it's clearly seen that what you thought was you is not true.
I is just a thought.
I can not get stressed.
Stress still happens, but it's not owned. It comes and goes, passes through, not happening TO you..

The best way to clear the system is investigating your current beliefs. What is THE most prescious belief that you are holding on?
Find it.
Rip it open.
Next.
Repeat.

You do that with every belief, before or after the gate. Gate does not exist anyway. And enlightenment is just a pretty word that keeps the seeker looking for something that does not exist.

There is no self. Is it true?
Yes or no?


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