Thread for Clint

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Clint
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Re: Thread for Clint

Postby Clint » Mon May 18, 2015 7:06 pm

Family problems: One of my family stayed in psychic ward for several months. Now lives and works in assisted living with garden, tailor and carpenter atelier. There were hard times for all of us.
Here suffering was caused by sticking on things, persons, situations and intense feelings.
Okay, thank you for sharing.
1) Brother, family, behaviour of the people, awareness. Is there something that you can hold? Is there any feeling or thinking or situation that you can hold?
there is nothing i can hold at all.
2) When hand is laying on the table feelings happen. Is there an inside or an outside when feeling this?
there is no inside or outside, just feeling
3) Now look: Where is an i? Is it in body, in thoughts, in feelings? Where does it come from?
as i look and see that i does not exist in body, thought or feelings i notice a center of perception in the upper middle part of my head. sometimes i experience the center of perception elsewhere as i direct my attention throughout my body. i asked if this center of perception was i and there was no answer.
When you look back in time, was there an i and where to find it?
when i look back in time for an i there is only the thought of i doing things or experiencing things. i can not be found.

as i look at my brother in front of me, he asks what i see and the answer is thought.

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0kay
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Re: Thread for Clint

Postby 0kay » Mon May 18, 2015 10:04 pm

Thats ok.

1) Sit down and put something on the floor, maybe an apple or a small box, just one step in front to feet.
Relaxed. Let the view flow from the apple-thing, to feet, inside body. Do it a few times. Is there a different inside or outside when viewing?

2) Close your eyes. Is there a center of perception inside or outside?


3) When there is no thought, inside or outside, where are you?
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Clint
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Re: Thread for Clint

Postby Clint » Tue May 19, 2015 3:26 am

1) Sit down and put something on the floor, maybe an apple or a small box, just one step in front to feet.
Relaxed. Let the view flow from the apple-thing, to feet, inside body. Do it a few times. Is there a different inside or outside when viewing?
Okay, if by view you mean to be aware of then no, there is no different inside or outside
2) Close your eyes. Is there a center of perception inside or outside?
no
3) When there is no thought, inside or outside, where are you?
when there is no thought, inside or outside, there is no i

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Re: Thread for Clint

Postby 0kay » Tue May 19, 2015 8:59 am

Yes, Clint :-)

Let´s have a look to basic sensing before any thoughts. When you see laths and tiles in a special order there is knowledge about how a chair looks and then a thought comes up "seeing a chair". Before there were thoughts about laths and tiles there was basic seeing.

Look at hand: What is seen before any thoughts?


Now we look for possible feelings about an "i" when acting, decisions, control or choice happens:

Take four or five pieces of paper, crunch them to balls. Throw all of them in the air and catch some of them before falling to the ground. Repeat as often as you need to answer the questions:

Who was acting in throwing in the air and catching some balls?

Who had control about the falling balls?

Who has choosed which balls where caught?

Who has moved the arms and hands?

Who is responsible for which balls laying on the ground?
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Clint
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Re: Thread for Clint

Postby Clint » Thu May 21, 2015 6:48 am

hi Okay :)

it has been a circus around here. i will need a couple more days to get to throwing paper balls in the air and responding.

thank you for your guidance

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Re: Thread for Clint

Postby 0kay » Thu May 21, 2015 7:43 am

You are welcome :)
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Clint
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Re: Thread for Clint

Postby Clint » Fri May 22, 2015 6:55 am

Look at hand: What is seen before any thoughts?
colours and shapes
Who was acting in throwing in the air and catching some balls?
i chose to throw the balls in the air as per the directions and i caught some. i have a hard time with this Okay. how did the balls get in the air if it was not me choosing to follow directions?
Who had control about the falling balls?
no one had control of the falling balls, i was only aware of them falling
Who has choosed which balls where caught?
no one chose which balls were caught, i did my best to catch some
Who has moved the arms and hands?
same here. who, other than i moved my arms and hands? Okay, arms and hands are colours and shapes. i see this just like i see hand the same way above but the choice to move the colours and shapes i call my arms and hands...?
Who is responsible for which balls laying on the ground?
the colours and shapes i call my arms and hands moved to catch some balls and the balls they didn't catch fell to the ground

this is weird Okay. it is seen that hands and arms are colours and shapes but there is still an i that is involved in acting and decision making. i don't get it. i want to but i don't :) what am i missing... or adding? i see that i am adding me but how to experience otherwise?

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Re: Thread for Clint

Postby 0kay » Fri May 22, 2015 7:38 am

When listen to osmosis, is there an i?
When hand is laying on the table for feeling the surface, is there an i?
When look to an apple in front of feet, to feet and into body, is there an i?
When moving happens, put hands i the air, is there an i?

To the paperball-game again, how does this i feel, is it a sense, a feeling, a thought or what else?
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Clint
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Re: Thread for Clint

Postby Clint » Sat May 23, 2015 6:00 pm

When listen to osmosis, is there an i?
When hand is laying on the table for feeling the surface, is there an i?
When look to an apple in front of feet, to feet and into body, is there an i?
When moving happens, put hands i the air, is there an i?
thank you and no, there is only awareness of things happening and stuff is-ing.
To the paperball-game again, how does this i feel, is it a sense, a feeling, a thought or what else?
this i is confused. there is a feeling of the sensation of paper balls in hand and a feeling of the sensation of movement. there is no thought of an i throwing balls in the air but who chooses to throw them in the air?

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Re: Thread for Clint

Postby 0kay » Sat May 23, 2015 10:54 pm

That was a good looking for these matters. Look a bit deeper for what can be found:

What experiences?

What thinks?

What does?

What chooses?

What is aware?
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Re: Thread for Clint

Postby 0kay » Mon May 25, 2015 12:04 am

Hi Clint, is it ok with you?
As you know, for this process it is best to have a look for these things every day.
How did the balls get in the air if it was not me choosing to follow directions?
Look back in time, what was needed to bring balls in the air?
Was there an i, and if, where and how did it appear?
Hingabe, in den Moment

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Clint
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Re: Thread for Clint

Postby Clint » Mon May 25, 2015 6:50 am

What experiences?
awareness experiences
What thinks?
awareness thinks
What does?
awareness does
What Chooses?
awareness chooses
What is aware?
awareness is aware
As you know, for this process it is best to have a look for these things every day.
and this is what i have been doing Okay :) i ask what drives? what eats? what types? what rides a bike? many times a day i ask this question for whatever i am doing and the only answer that ever comes up is awareness does it all.
How did the balls get in the air if it was not me choosing to follow directions?

Look back in time, what was needed to bring balls in the air?
awareness is all that is needed for everything and anything including throwing the balls in the air.
Was there an i, and if, where and how did it appear?
i see that it looks like (apparent/relative truth) i chose but that is the thought that happens after the happening and it only happens because i doubts the Truth of awareness is all.

the doubting i is still here Okay. does that ever go away?

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Re: Thread for Clint

Postby 0kay » Mon May 25, 2015 10:03 am

the doubting i is still here Okay. does that ever go away?
In your "aware"-times you can see that things could look less important to you.
But there are times with only looking or hearing and there are times with action or thoughts. Thoughts could contain doubt´s, too. As you see we try to explore in direct experience the things as they are.
Now answer to the red marked questions:

Is thinking made by an i?
Can you stop thinking when thinking happens?
Can you hold a thought as long as you want?


Here it looks like the answers for the questions "what" came from thinking, not from direct experience.
We tried in looking for senses how to do direct experience, look there how to do and then again:

Awareness. Is it really true that experiences only happen when there is awareness? Does thoughts come up only when there is awareness? Does action only happens when there is awareness? How can awareness make a choose?

"awareness is aware" is no answer.
Aware, where does it com from, is it an i or what is the difference between i and awareness?
Where can you find awareness, where can you find an i?
What experiences?
What thinks?
What does?
What chooses?
What is aware?
Hingabe, in den Moment

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Clint
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Re: Thread for Clint

Postby Clint » Tue May 26, 2015 4:59 am

Okay, i feel like i'm a fish swimming around looking for water and you are right beside me telling me that i'm in the water but as much as i believe you and understand this truth intellectually, there is something i am missing because i don't know it. what am i missing Okay? what am i not getting? how do i stop i from seeking?

the following questions Vivien asked me and i find my self in the same place of not knowing how to answer or, not knowing the answer, or thinking i know the answer, instead of KNOWING.
Is thinking made by an i?
no
Can you stop thinking when thinking happens?
i can't stop thinking Okay but i can change my focus so that the thinking becomes either background noise or quits altogether.
Can you hold a thought as long as you want?
no
Is it really true that experiences only happen when there is awareness?
well when you put it like that i suppose experiences happen all the time whether i'm aware of them or not.
Does thoughts come up only when there is awareness?
again, putting it like that, i can have all sorts of thoughts and then become aware that i'm running around in my head.
Does action only happens when there is awareness?
again, action is impermanence and that happens whether i'm aware or not.
How can awareness make a choose?
i see that awareness just is. something else chooses.
Aware, where does it com from, is it an i or what is the difference between i and awareness?

the simple intellectual answer is that awareness is and i is not. another answer is that i is a thought or belief system and awareness just is.
Where can you find awareness, where can you find an i?
i've looked and i can't find either Okay... they are not a thing in a place.
What experiences?
all that comes to me is that experience experiences.
What thinks?
same thing: thinking thinks.
What does?
this seems really silly to say Okay but i got nothing else - doing does.
What chooses?
again, choosing chooses. so silly. i want to say i choose but then i'd be contradicting my self... i think i still am contradicting my self... all over the place :)
What is aware?
and again - awareness is aware.

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Re: Thread for Clint

Postby 0kay » Tue May 26, 2015 10:25 am

Yes, Clint. This looks good to me and i have no questions.
there is something i am missing because i don't know it. what am i missing Okay? what am i not getting? how do i stop i from seeking?
But it could be possible that you have some questions to look for, so:

Who is searching or is it something different?
What is it where you are searching for, now, in this moment?
What do you need to know more, now, in this moment, here?
What things should we explore now, in this moment, here?
Hingabe, in den Moment

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