Thread for Gerald.

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Ilona
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Re: Thread for Gerald.

Postby Ilona » Tue Mar 10, 2015 6:00 pm

We have just migrated to new server and so,e posts were lost. Here is my answer to your last posts

Thanks for update. Yes, it's relaxing, strange, but it works. It's like giving attention to a child, that was ignored for a long time, and now he no longer needs to throw tantrums in order to be noticed and appreciated. Listening to mind and heart, what they say that is in the way of peace reveals all so called blockages and it's easy to clear them by simply feeling what is there.

A question for you today is what is being sucked in the content of thoughts? Is there an entity that thoughts are happening to? Are thoguths in the way of life happening?

Sending love.
Truth realized will set you free.
http://ilonaciunaite.com/book

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Re: Thread for Gerald.

Postby GeraldF » Tue Mar 10, 2015 9:16 pm

Hello there, Ilona.

I saw your post first thing this morning and I hadn't replied yet, so there was no problem for me.

I spent a good part of today answering the questions below – thinking and struggling. Then I went for a walk and listened to a recording of one of your Worthing meetings. Now I’m feeling much more relaxed and open, and much calmer about thoughts moving through.

But anyway, I’m going to send these answers, since you asked!

Thank you for your patience – and for recording those meetings.

Gerald.

A question for you today is what is being sucked in the content of thoughts?


The immediate answer is that “I” get sucked into thoughts. But if there’s no “I”, maybe it’s just attention that is being focused. As previously noticed, “I” don’t have control over my attention. It just goes wherever it’s most interested. And if it’s absorbed in thinking for now, I guess that’s just the way it is. Maybe it’s not a problem.

Maybe from years of seeking, or just neurotic discomfort, I’ve presumed that too much thinking is a bad thing.

I guess this must connect back to talking to the mind – being kind to it, not treating it like the enemy, making peace with it, letting go of resistance.

Are thoughts in the way of life happening?

Obviously thoughts aren’t in the way, because life keeps on going, including them. This tells me that thoughts are just part of life – equal to other sensory input. But “I” keep struggling with thoughts, getting involved with their content, treating them like they’re the enemy.

And that brings me back to: Who is the “I” that keeps struggling? It turns into a kind of thought loop. Even if there’s no “I”, there’s still this thinking process, trying to sort it out.

Is there an entity that thoughts are happening to?

Even if “I” am not generating the thoughts myself, they frequently take centre stage in the attention of this entity or character or “me”. There’s no denying that, is there?

So might all this just think itself out? The logical elements may eventually combine in such a way that this all becomes obvious, and the confusion relaxes. This is sort of like a child arguing why there must be a Santa.

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Re: Thread for Gerald.

Postby Ilona » Wed Mar 11, 2015 7:58 am

Thank you for answers. Getting clearer!
Ther must be a Santa! Hehe sure thing! :)
thoughts myself, they frequently take centre stage in the attention of this entity or character or “me”. There’s no denying that, is there?
Let's break this down a little
There is no santa.

There is no character, but thoughts about the character. The character is fiction. So attention is not something that belongs to the character. Attention goes to thoughts about the character. That does not make it "attention of the character". Can you see what I'm saying?
Close yes for a bit and focus on attention itself. See how it moves and jumps around, see how it catches most contrasting, loudests sensations, sounds, how it moves.
Look then, where is the character? What do you find?
Ask this question- where is the entity me?
What comes for the answer?

Sending love
Truth realized will set you free.
http://ilonaciunaite.com/book

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GeraldF
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Re: Thread for Gerald.

Postby GeraldF » Wed Mar 11, 2015 6:12 pm

Good day, Ilona.

I’ve been pondering…

So attention is not something that belongs to the character. Attention goes to thoughts about the character. That does not make it "attention of the character". Can you see what I'm saying?

Thank you for pointing this out. I can see that I was letting “attention” take the role of a “me”.

Today I’ve been thinking about what this message means about goals. It would imply that “I” have never been in charge of achieving goals in the past, even though certain desirable results have been reached. So somehow certain activities have occurred in a sequence that has resulted in those results. The patterns seem to work out with some consistency for me.

But not every goal is easy, obviously – weight loss or expanding my business, for example. Sometimes movement happens in those directions, but sometimes not. Is it all beyond “my” control? Does that mean everything is pre-destined? But in the end, I guess that’s just a story. Everything is unfolding in immediacy. I would love to hear your thoughts.

I'm definitely processing all this – following your tips about talking to the mind. It’s remarkable how much we’ve covered in just one week. Things seem to be shifting.

With many, many thanks…

Gerald.

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Re: Thread for Gerald.

Postby Ilona » Wed Mar 11, 2015 7:47 pm

Consider this-
What is in charge of weather?
The wind blows where it blows.
But
There is summer wind and winter wind, a breeze and a storm.
There are nature patterns, first there is spring then there is summer. What is in charge of that?

So is this goal setting thing. when conditions are right, goal is set, step after step is taken, looking back you can see, this works. Yes. But what is this me, that made it happen?
Is there an entity inside this bag of skin ?
Where is it now?
Is it I that is reading these words?
Is it I that sets and archieves goals?

Find out what is true.
Sending love.
Truth realized will set you free.
http://ilonaciunaite.com/book

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Re: Thread for Gerald.

Postby GeraldF » Thu Mar 12, 2015 10:05 am

Hello Ilona.

When conditions are right, goal is set, step after step is taken. Looking back you can see, this works.

When I first read this message yesterday, I was overcome by the beauty of the realization. I felt tears come to my eyes, thinking: “Achieving my goals didn’t need to feel so hard. It’s all been happening naturally, step by step.” For about an hour, I was right there with the immediacy.

But shortly afterward, I lost that knowing, as I moved into a social situation and was distracted. And this morning when I woke (in a panic attack about work deadlines), I could barely recall what any of this means.

I guess looking needs to continue to develop some stability? But I guess I shouldn’t need to work hard at that either!

So grateful…

Gerald.

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Re: Thread for Gerald.

Postby Ilona » Thu Mar 12, 2015 10:58 am

Sweet.
Yes, looking continues. It's the ultimate tool for clearing all confusion and it's simple, available and immediate.

Let's look at distraction. Is this something in the way of life flow or its part of it?
Is there anything outside of flow?Is there anything that obstructs the flow?
If so, what exactly?

Sending love.
Truth realized will set you free.
http://ilonaciunaite.com/book

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Re: Thread for Gerald.

Postby GeraldF » Thu Mar 12, 2015 7:41 pm

Hello again, Ilona.

Let's look at distraction. Is this something in the way of life flow or its part of it?

What I label as “distraction” is just a temporary focus of attention – absorption in whatever is present. By calling it a “distraction”, it is being judged as wrong or inappropriate. By implication, there must be something better to pay attention to instead. Presumably, I should be paying attention to lofty philosophical pondering around the clock!

Obviously whatever activity I’m calling a distraction (which is a label that comes after the fact, as a story) is part of the flow of life. Being absorbed in activity is how life is experienced. Every moment is always filled with the content of life. Even when I’m absorbed in thinking that feels uncomfortable, that is just the current content.

Considering this topic makes me aware of how often I think I am currently doing the wrong thing. I might be working on a deadline, but thinking I should be phoning someone instead. I might be watching TV, but feeling guilty because I should be working. It's a sense that there is something else that is more important than this. This is a regular uncomfortable undercurrent. Ilona, could you please pose some questions that might bring some insight on this topic?

Also, it’s dawning on me that the exercise of talking to the mind is really just another way of “looking” – noticing the thoughts, feeling the emotions, coming back to right here/right now – which does have a relaxing effect.

Those are my thoughts for today!

Thank you so much...

Gerald.

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Re: Thread for Gerald.

Postby Ilona » Sat Mar 14, 2015 8:34 am

currently doing the wrong thing. I might be working on a deadline, but thinking I should be phoning someone instead. I might be watching TV, but feeling guilty because I should be working. It's a sense that there is something else that is more important than this. This is a regular uncomfortable undercurrent. Ilona, could you please pose some questions that might bring some insight on this topic?
Yes, well noted, shoulds and shouldn'ts are judgements over what is happening now.
For a day, catch all shoulds and shouldn'ts. Notice when they come up, what they say, what are they unhappy with. No need to act on them, just watch them appear and let them disapear. Kind of watch without resistance to them, letting them show up freely.

In the end of the exercise, tell me, what should be different? What is incomplete right now?
What shoulds and shouldn'ts were most noticeable?
Who's beliefs are they ( when we're the phrases heard first and spoken by whom?)



Yes, deep looking technique is just another way of focusing on what is actually happening here now, looking, listening, without judgement, allowing raw sensations to be here and so they can pass. Relaxation happens as resistance melts.
Good work.

Sending love.
Truth realized will set you free.
http://ilonaciunaite.com/book

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Re: Thread for Gerald.

Postby GeraldF » Sat Mar 14, 2015 10:39 am

Thank you, Ilona. I'll watch for shoulds today. I have a lot of them!

I'll report back tomorrow.

Warmly...
Gerald.

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Re: Thread for Gerald.

Postby GeraldF » Sun Mar 15, 2015 12:43 pm

Hi Ilona.

Thinking about “shoulds” and “shouldn’ts” has been challenging – seeming to get right to the heart of how “I” could be in charge.

Shoulds and shouldn'ts are judgements over what is happening now. For a day, catch all shoulds and shouldn'ts. Notice when they come up, what they say, what are they unhappy with.
What shoulds and shouldn'ts were most noticeable?


Some of my most common “shouldn’ts” include: “He shouldn’t act that way. She shouldn’t ask me to do that. I shouldn’t eat that. I shouldn’t buy that.” These “shouldn’ts” are thoughts that are trying to control the world, and “I” don’t control the world.

My “shoulds” are most frequently creating a mental to-do list: “I should phone her. I should write her an email before I work on that. I should finish this project before noon. I should go to the gym at 5:30. I should have finished that task already.” I don’t always obey these thoughts, but I have always thought they had value in terms of “self”-discipline.

Through this process, I have become aware of an old belief that “I need to manage myself” – which would mean there are TWO “I”s! One is strict and one is lazy, and the strict one tries to keep everything running efficiently. It’s apparent to me now that these are actually just thoughts, not identities.

No need to act on them, just watch them appear and let them disappear.

Do I have control of whether I act on them or not?! I’m presuming I never have had control. The thoughts just come, as part of the intelligence of the universe. The actions also appear, as part of the flow. I guess the thoughts and actions are not necessarily connected, though they sometimes appear to be. Especially when I put them on my to-do list, and then do them.

In my work as a writer, I’m aware that the ideas just come and I write them down. “I” don’t generate them. The process of writing and editing really breaks down into one thought at a time.

In the end of the exercise, tell me, what should be different? What is incomplete right now? Who's beliefs are they? When were the phrases heard first and spoken by whom?

Whatever “shoulds” and “shouldn’ts” have been going on in my mind, the world carries on, complete in itself. The thoughts and beliefs seem to come to me automatically, but we’ve already established that this “me” can’t be defined. It’s just what’s right here right now. The thoughts and actions are part of the overall flow.

Writing something on my to-do list is an activity in itself. The actual doing of an activity on the list is independent, with its own timing.

I'm not sure how clear I’m being here! This seems important stuff for me to sort out, since I have always been so focused on “self”-discipline and “self”-management.

I will continue watching how things happen.

Thank you so much for your direction, Ilona.

Gerald.

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Re: Thread for Gerald.

Postby GeraldF » Sun Mar 15, 2015 2:25 pm

PS
I was just doing some household tasks, and my mind was reminding me that I "should" be taking care of another work-related matter. Instead of treating my mind as a strict boss who's always nagging me, I followed your deep looking technique. I said, "Thank you, mind, that's a very good suggestion. Good idea. I'll do that. You can relax now." And I immediately felt a deep sense of relaxation. I will try this again. (And I will genuinely follow through with the suggestion, because it was a good idea and it needs to be done for a work project.)

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Re: Thread for Gerald.

Postby Ilona » Mon Mar 16, 2015 8:16 am

Thank you Gerald for taking time with this and clear report.
Through this process, I have become aware of an old belief that “I need to manage myself” – which would mean there are TWO “I”s! One is strict and one is lazy, and the strict one tries to keep everything running efficiently. It’s apparent to me now that these are actually just thoughts, not identities.
Can you bring back a memory, where you first heard this phrase about needing to manage yourself. Who said that? And is it true? Do you need to manage yourself? What do you manage precisely?
The appointment book of list of things to do is fine. As you notice it's an activity that happens. I'm asking you to look deeper here and see what is in fact that is being managed and how this mechanism works? What happens if what you think you should be doing is not happening? Is there guilt, shame or self beating emotions? Just open up this one thing- you need to manage yourself...

What do you find when looking at this?

Sending love.
Truth realized will set you free.
http://ilonaciunaite.com/book

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Re: Thread for Gerald.

Postby GeraldF » Mon Mar 16, 2015 10:19 am

Good morning, Ilona.

More challenging questions!

Can you bring back a memory, where you first heard this phrase about needing to manage yourself. Who said that?

I think “I” came up with managing myself on my own. I was unpopular as a child (overweight, gay), so I realized I needed to perform well to be accepted. I developed an “I’ll show them, I’ll make them like me” attitude. In my career, I work on many projects that require long periods of focus, so “self”-discipline has been important and “I” can force “myself” to focus. As a result, most people would say I’m very productive.

What happens if what you think you should be doing is not happening? Is there guilt, shame or self beating emotions? Just open up this one thing- you need to manage yourself... What do you find when looking at this?

If I’m not doing what I think I should be doing, definitely I feel guilt and fear – that my clients or friends might be disappointed or angry, and I might not be successful anymore. That motivates me to get back into control and get back to work, or go to the gym, or call a certain person, or deal with whatever problem needs attention. “I” seem to force myself into action – or the guilt/fear builds up to a certain level and the only relief is to take action.

And is it true? Do you need to manage yourself? What do you manage precisely? I'm asking you to look deeper here and see what it is in fact that is being managed and how this mechanism works?

I’m seeing that this is a VERY deep belief. The success I’ve had does seem to reinforce the belief.

But I’m trying to look at this from the LU perspective. I suppose emotions are being felt, and action happens, but the two things are not necessarily related? At this point it’s hard for me to believe that sincerely. Even if it’s not “me” who’s doing it, “this character” has a pattern of behaviour that leads quite consistently to successful results.

Ilona, could you please point me a bit further on how to see this differently?

Thank you for your help…

Warmly,
Gerald.

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Re: Thread for Gerald.

Postby Ilona » Tue Mar 17, 2015 8:17 am

Hi Gerald. Thank you for thoughtful answer.

[quoteIf I’m not doing what I think I should be doing, definitely I feel guilt and fear – that my clients or friends might be disappointed or angry, and I might not be successful anymore. That motivates me to get back into control and get back to work, or go to the gym, or call a certain person, or deal with whatever problem needs attention. “I” seem to force myself into action – or the guilt/fear builds up to a certain level and the only relief is to take action.][/quote]

Yes, guilt and fear of not succeeding is often the motivating force. But it's not a necessary force. Actions can be taken out of joy of doing them too, freely and spontaneously.
As you can see, guilt and fear are trying to help. It's ok for them to do so. If that's what you need. If that's what works, right?
Does it work?
Is stress helpful?

What do you find?

Sending love
Truth realized will set you free.
http://ilonaciunaite.com/book


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