Looking for a Guide

This is a read-only part of the forum. All threads where seeing happens are stored here and come from this forum, the Facebook guiding area and various LU blogs. The complete list, sorted by guide, contains all links. The archives include threads of those that came to LU already seeing as well.
User avatar
Delma
Posts: 1522
Joined: Sun Sep 18, 2011 3:03 am
Location: Florida
Contact:

Re: Looking for a Guide

Postby Delma » Wed Dec 10, 2014 12:38 pm

What does that mean to you?
There is no "I" doing this inquiry. There is no "I" looking for the "I".

Delma
tabulrasablog.com
seeingnoself.com

Bananafish
Posts: 3215
Joined: Mon Dec 08, 2014 3:29 pm
Location: Japan
Contact:

Re: Looking for a Guide

Postby Bananafish » Wed Dec 10, 2014 12:57 pm

It means that I don't own attention, although I'm sure that attention
is a subjective thing that is going on.

User avatar
Delma
Posts: 1522
Joined: Sun Sep 18, 2011 3:03 am
Location: Florida
Contact:

Re: Looking for a Guide

Postby Delma » Wed Dec 10, 2014 1:00 pm

Was that arrived at through a logical conclusion?

Instead.....

What does this lack of owner of attention feel like?
There is no "I" doing this inquiry. There is no "I" looking for the "I".

Delma
tabulrasablog.com
seeingnoself.com

Bananafish
Posts: 3215
Joined: Mon Dec 08, 2014 3:29 pm
Location: Japan
Contact:

Re: Looking for a Guide

Postby Bananafish » Wed Dec 10, 2014 1:18 pm

It feels like attention is working on its own.

User avatar
Delma
Posts: 1522
Joined: Sun Sep 18, 2011 3:03 am
Location: Florida
Contact:

Re: Looking for a Guide

Postby Delma » Wed Dec 10, 2014 1:31 pm

Can you describe that?
There is no "I" doing this inquiry. There is no "I" looking for the "I".

Delma
tabulrasablog.com
seeingnoself.com

Bananafish
Posts: 3215
Joined: Mon Dec 08, 2014 3:29 pm
Location: Japan
Contact:

Re: Looking for a Guide

Postby Bananafish » Wed Dec 10, 2014 2:03 pm

Sometimes attention gets very clear, and sometimes it gets blurry, sometimes focused,
and sometimes not so much focused on anything. These occur on its own, without anyone's will.

User avatar
Delma
Posts: 1522
Joined: Sun Sep 18, 2011 3:03 am
Location: Florida
Contact:

Re: Looking for a Guide

Postby Delma » Wed Dec 10, 2014 3:25 pm

Thank you.

If it happens without will, then what would that say about a separate self? If basic attention isn't controlled, where is the self in all of that? Who or what then controls life?
There is no "I" doing this inquiry. There is no "I" looking for the "I".

Delma
tabulrasablog.com
seeingnoself.com

Bananafish
Posts: 3215
Joined: Mon Dec 08, 2014 3:29 pm
Location: Japan
Contact:

Re: Looking for a Guide

Postby Bananafish » Wed Dec 10, 2014 3:54 pm

Thanks so much, Delma.
I feel like my long-held assumptions are questioned in a very intense way.

Now it feels REALLY strange that somehow, till now, I've thought that my
acts are controlled by my will, which is different from the actual
understanding that attention isn't controlled by no one. There's nothing like the self
involved in that.

At the same time, I feel a strong habit through which the sense of
doer-ship (the feeling that I am controlling my own act, or my own life) is generated,
and that sense remains even after the realisation that attention is not
controlled.

User avatar
Delma
Posts: 1522
Joined: Sun Sep 18, 2011 3:03 am
Location: Florida
Contact:

Re: Looking for a Guide

Postby Delma » Wed Dec 10, 2014 4:08 pm

Perfect.

This has led us straight to the next step, which is to look closely at expectations. We'll come around to doer-ship, because it often a sticking point. But first, let's look at the senses and how they relate to a separate self.

What would happen if there was no separate self and there never was one? What would life look like? Look now at the visual field. If there was no separate self, would the visual field appear differently? Look throughout the 'history of you'. Is there any time during which a separate self was there? Is it there now?

Delma
There is no "I" doing this inquiry. There is no "I" looking for the "I".

Delma
tabulrasablog.com
seeingnoself.com

Bananafish
Posts: 3215
Joined: Mon Dec 08, 2014 3:29 pm
Location: Japan
Contact:

Re: Looking for a Guide

Postby Bananafish » Wed Dec 10, 2014 4:22 pm

What would happen if there was no separate self and there never was one? What would life look like? Look now at the visual field. If there was no separate self, would the visual field appear differently? Look throughout the 'history of you'. Is there any time during which a separate self was there? Is it there now?
The visual field wouldn't appear differently. My present visual field
doesn't appear differently even after realising that there's no controller of
this basic attention.

Now I also realise that there was no time during which a separate self was there.
That 'history of me' has been just like the lights randomly going on and off according to
the environment or situation.

User avatar
Delma
Posts: 1522
Joined: Sun Sep 18, 2011 3:03 am
Location: Florida
Contact:

Re: Looking for a Guide

Postby Delma » Wed Dec 10, 2014 5:04 pm

Is this an intellectual understanding still, or is this evident as a fact of reality?
There is no "I" doing this inquiry. There is no "I" looking for the "I".

Delma
tabulrasablog.com
seeingnoself.com

Bananafish
Posts: 3215
Joined: Mon Dec 08, 2014 3:29 pm
Location: Japan
Contact:

Re: Looking for a Guide

Postby Bananafish » Thu Dec 11, 2014 6:11 am

Hi Delma. Took a while to reply.
Yes, it is evident as a fact.

User avatar
Delma
Posts: 1522
Joined: Sun Sep 18, 2011 3:03 am
Location: Florida
Contact:

Re: Looking for a Guide

Postby Delma » Thu Dec 11, 2014 3:22 pm

Hi There!

Did a shift come with that realization? Meaning... a felt sense of it being true on a deep level not considered before? :)

It's ok if it didn't. I'm just taking our temperature and don't want to assume that we should move along too quickly. If there was a shift, please describe it. If not, we'll just keep working, no problem at all.

Thank you!!
There is no "I" doing this inquiry. There is no "I" looking for the "I".

Delma
tabulrasablog.com
seeingnoself.com

Bananafish
Posts: 3215
Joined: Mon Dec 08, 2014 3:29 pm
Location: Japan
Contact:

Re: Looking for a Guide

Postby Bananafish » Thu Dec 11, 2014 3:38 pm

Hi, Delma. :)
Did a shift come with that realization? Meaning... a felt sense of it being true on a deep level not considered before?
:)

No. Now I'm sure this understanding is not merely an intellectual one, but nothing like a shift
has happened ... it feels more like it's getting clearer in a rather slow pace, mildly.

User avatar
Delma
Posts: 1522
Joined: Sun Sep 18, 2011 3:03 am
Location: Florida
Contact:

Re: Looking for a Guide

Postby Delma » Thu Dec 11, 2014 3:50 pm

We have other ground to cover, so no worries. "Getting clearer" is a good direction. And when I say shift, it can be small. Sometimes this happens like that. I would define shift as a felt sense of what is understood... some may say it's felt in the gut or heart rather than head. That would be what we call a shift.

So, let's move on a little.

You've looked in the visual field and found that it would not appear differently with or without a self. (correct me if I've overstated).

Let's also look at the rest of the ways the world is perceived. Are you familiar with the Bahiya Sutta? I'd like to explore a few lines of it.

Note a sound. Determine whether a hearer is present along with the sound. Are there two distinct things... hearer and heard?

Stay with this inquiry if you need to because the intellectual answer is rather obvious. Because it can be obvious, the inquiry is often not fully engaged. The mind says, "Oh yes, I know this one.", boredom with can set in, and the exploration is derailed. So, see what comes up when this is undertaken.

The inquiry:

Is there both hearer and heard?
Where is sound, inside or outside?


Delma
There is no "I" doing this inquiry. There is no "I" looking for the "I".

Delma
tabulrasablog.com
seeingnoself.com


Return to “ARCHIVES”

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 1 guest