Looking for a guide

[antara]

Thats ok...I can wait a while (regarding to your internet problems)

Dropping the narrative of thought, is there actually any separation or location to be found between the sound and the sensations of the body?

No...I cannot really feel any separation...there is just some waves in the body what i can feel, when the sound is starting.

Actually after a while sitting like this and then starting to type on the keyboard also does not feel like separate movement...it just feels like one flow. There is not a feeling that one thing or action is somehow disconected from something what was happening before...

With eyes closed I can feel better the movements... with eyes open there is perseption of objects as well...but after a while that also feels like just seeing...when I dont add a names or explanations to them...it is just seeing.

[Josephkoudelka]

No...I cannot really feel any separation...there is just some waves in the body what i can feel, when the sound is starting.

Separation can never be found at the feeling level of just looking. If it is, you can always attribute it to a thought that makes a claim of separation. A claim of separation is not valid if all that supports it is the content of thought. Even to say inner and outer, internal and external, requires a thought to support them. They are concepts. We don't experience concepts. We think about them. Then we paste them onto the direct experience after the fact. Some are so ingrain that we never even recognize the actual experience as it is. We are on autopilot suffering a conceptual model that has suffering built in as the default mode of operation.

Actually after a while sitting like this and then starting to type on the keyboard also does not feel like separate movement...it just feels like one flow. There is not a feeling that one thing or action is somehow disconected from something what was happening before...

Yes. experience is seamless, nondual and partless. Duality is a concept also created by thought. This is all very simple and ordinary when we just look. Radical and extraordinary only because we have forgotten how to be. Be aware that every description of the experience of now requires the use of language, and language, no matter how it is parsed, is conceptual. We can recognize however, the description of experiencing a thought rather than labeling experience with thought. Words are slippery.

...with eyes open there is perseption of objects as well...but after a while that also feels like just seeing...when I dont add a names or explanations to them...it is just seeing.

Yes, only seeing, only hearing, only knowing.

Does one thought know another thought?

[antara]

Does one thought know another thought?

No, it did not felt like this. They appeared the same as the sounds in the room...came and went...there can be a continuety or sequence of thoughts (like they can make a line of something), but I did not see that the one thought knows another. The thought process is just happening the same as the breathing. And when there is no judgment on them they are as innocent as the bird singing.

During this looking there was moments, where there was expierence of quite strong sense of peace. There was just this silence, thoughts came and went, but it did not matter what they were telling. Felt very relaxing.

I can also see that I dont choose to do things. The hand moved and took something from the table. Before there use to be a feeling, that I am choosing to take an apple or whatever, today it felt like just a movement which is happening and even if there is this believe that I am choosing to do that, I actually dont.

The same thing with thoughts. I dont see, that I am choosing what to think. They just appear...And the same, even if I think that I do choose what to think...I actually dont. There is no control over it...
There are moments, when it feels relaxing and there are moments, when it feels scary...(The control thing. I quess the frightened part is the thought, the separate self, but I still experience that).

Thank you!!!
Antara

[Josephkoudelka]

The same thing with thoughts. I dont see, that I am choosing what to think. They just appear...And the same, even if I think that I do choose what to think...I actually dont. There is no control over it...
There are moments, when it feels relaxing and there are moments, when it feels scary...(The control thing. I quess the frightened part is the thought, the separate self, but I still experience that).

Thoughts truly do come and go like clouds in an empty sky... And wherever I look, I am there - Knowing only this that thus comes. I am not a self or an entity yet all life is known, in this eternal, partless knowing-being-space.

Can a real self actually be found in a frightened thought or feeling. Look! Right now. If it is real, grab it and give it a shake and say, "wake up, wake up, you are dreaming!" Do you find a self when you look?

Joseph ♥︎

[antara]

Can a real self actually be found in a frightened thought or feeling. Look! Right now. If it is real, grab it and give it a shake and say, "wake up, wake up, you are dreaming!" Do you find a self when you look?

No...When I look at directly I cannot find the one who is frightened. The feeling is just there...the same as the sounds, the same as the walking happening...its just there.

I had a quite busy day today and I was looking at it in different situations. Its really easy to do when I am alone - walking, driving...then the space where everything is happening is felt quite easely. And there is immediate sensation of relaxation and melting. During the social situations Its a little more difficult. The old habits just come back.

But anyhow, this seeing relised something and I had a quie a lot of energy today. I could see also how the thoughts create the emotions in the body. The response is quite immediate. I kind a new that, but today I could feel it somehow very direct. Its not really the thought, but the thing that I believe it...that is the sense from today.

With gratitude,
Antara

[Josephkoudelka]

Its not really the thought, but the thing that I believe it...that is the sense from today.

Hi Antara. Beliefs are just thoughts that have been repeated over and over again, an explanation of sorts to maintain the illusion of self. They come in many forms and the only control that one might have, if that, is t see them for the illusion they are. Thoughts are not reality as it is. They are a story about reality as it is. And it is never true to our actual direct knowing or experiencing of it. The cool thing is, there is no self, nor having any thoughts. Thoughts are just another sensation occurring in the vast non locatable knowing presence.

Right now, look. Is a thought required to know that you are? Do you need a thought to know you are aware now?

Joseph ♥︎

[antara]

Right now, look. Is a thought required to know that you are? Do you need a thought to know you are aware now?

No...no thought is needed to know.
Everything is just there...sounds, breathing.
Life is. No comments, explanations are needed.

[Josephkoudelka]

No...no thought is needed to know.
Everything is just there...sounds, breathing.
Life is. No comments, explanations are needed.

Is there a separate entity 'self', 'me' 'I', at all, anywhere, in any way, shape or form? Was there ever?

[antara]

Is there a separate entity 'self', 'me' 'I', at all, anywhere, in any way, shape or form? Was there ever?

After looking for quite a while and having had all kind of feelings coming up with this question for example sadness and the feeling like loosing something...I came to the point that, no, I cannot find that separate entity. It all feels like one big flow...Cannot find borders, beginings or ends. Nothing started, nothing ended. Nothing can ever been taken away, nothing can be lost...no matter what happens it cannot do anything or anyhow influence this flow, this space...
I feel that this question it is still moving...
i will sleep on it.

Thank you,
Antara

[Josephkoudelka]

After looking for quite a while and having had all kind of feelings coming up with this question for example sadness and the feeling like loosing something...I came to the point that, no, I cannot find that separate entity.

This is the first of the final six questions that we ask when we feel that a prospective gatecrasher has crashed the gate. I f you feel that you need more time to look and become familiar with the territory of no self, we can continue to look together.

Your last several responses have displayed clarity regarding that the self is an illusion, a fictitious entity only found in thoughts narrative. You have also been clear regarding the role of whether or not there is any control associated with thoughts. Realizing that there is no self and that there has never been a self is this simple. and ordinary. Of course, if one returns to this clear understanding and looks, the implications are liberating.

Take your time and let me know if this is clear or not.

Joseph ♥︎

[antara]

Hi Joseph,

Take your time and let me know if this is clear or not.

Yes, it feels clear. I just felt that it needs a little time to sink in.
I am ready to continue looking.

What is felt during these last days, that in this space nothing is ever lost or gained. In few last years there was very strongly the feeling that a lot what I considered myself to be is somehow lost...I felt kind of broken and confused.

While looking for an answer to your previous question, " has there ever been a separate self" I could not find any ever and then just this sensation of ongoing, unbreakable flow was there and the sensation that in this space nothing is ever lost, nothing is ever broken, nothing is ever gained. No matter what so called I does in this world does not add or take away anything from this space...This seeing brought peace, but its kind of strange also, because sitting with this long enough, I dont know if anything ever happened...

With Love,
Antara

[Josephkoudelka]

This seeing brought peace, but its kind of strange also, because sitting with this long enough, I dont know if anything ever happened...

This is beautiful. It is like this. ♥︎

When we step behind the curtain of thoughts, finding no self, we discover nothing has ever happened. It was all a story, one of sorrow, one of love lost, perhaps gained, and periods of happiness too. All this happened to my self, and now, it's no longer here. It was never here. Yet what is undeniably, seamlessly present - is this knowing, knowing, knowing presence that says yes to whatever is.

Our second question -

2) Explain in detail what the illusion of separate self is, when it starts and how it works from your own experience. Describe it fully as you see it now.

Joseph ♥︎

[antara]

Hello Joseph,

I just wrote a replay, but I quess i was writing it for too long, so in the end it got lost.
Its really late now, so I will rewrite it tomorrow morning.

Love
Antara

[Josephkoudelka]

Oh! :( Ok.

Joseph ︎

[antara]

Ok. Lets start agin...:)

2) Explain in detail what the illusion of separate self is, when it starts and how it works from your own experience. Describe it fully as you see it now.

There were lot of memories arising with this question...from the childhood, school and so on. So, I can see that, while growing up there are lot of conclusions, ideas, believes what sticks from events, interactions with other people...but in the end it all came to the point, where it starts with a form. I can see an empty space and then the form appears (the body). So, I believe myself to be this form...and it is felt different from other forms. I am like this you are like that...then there is this feeling of closing down...somehow need to protect, defend... comparing. Feels like a lot of effort and struggle. I can see how it kind of tries to live this life...make it happen...and it cant!

So, the illusion of the separate self arrises, when the form is believed to be me...and everything what is said, thought and felt is believed to be attached to this form.

At some point there was a feeling, that it does not hold a real reality. Just one thought process, telling something to another...did not feel very grounded....The separate self feels like a noise...i dont know, jus a lot of noise...and also there is this tight and narrow feeling in the body...sometimes like suffocating. And It feels like all these ideas and believes and constant struggle brings a lot of stress into the body...Somehow there was the feeling, that during all its existance It have been all the time under the stress and its painful. I dont know, maybe it is just my particular feeling, but thats how it is felt here.

Love,
Antara