Looking for a guide

[Josephkoudelka]

So, the illusion of the separate self arrises, when the form is believed to be me...and everything what is said, thought and felt is believed to be attached to this form.

Is it a form that is believed to be "me" or a thought that says a form is "me?"

[antara]

It is a thought that says a form is me.
Without that the form is just a form...the same a the sound...it just is.

[Josephkoudelka]

It is a thought that says a form is me.
Without that the form is just a form...the same a the sound...it just is.

And how is the illusion of self maintained?

[antara]

Honestly, I dont know ...:)
I have spent all day with this and all I can see it just happens.It gets believed again and again, until it doesnt anymore I guess... Its like a thing of attention...that instead of the direct experience attention goes to the thought process...and back...and again to the thought process or to the "Me". At the same time nothing is lost...everything is still happening...life is there, does not go anywhere..Nothing gets broken or interrupted by this.

The clear answer is not there yet, but somehow being with this question makes me feel this space of ones more. Something happened today in the supermarket...I just were walking there and suddenly it all was felt like one space...all the people there...things...Did not feel any borders between anything....all included.


Antara

[Josephkoudelka]

Honestly, I dont know ...:)

What role does thought play? Is a self experienced directly? Or is it an idea?

[antara]

What role does thought play? Is a self experienced directly? Or is it an idea?

Thought creates the illusion of the separate self. It is an idea.
The direct experience is when what is is perceived without the filter of the comments, thoughts, ideas....sounds, smells, walking seeing...no names, no labels...then no borders, no separation is felt. Like the other day in the supermarket...it includes everything... also thought, but it is not seen, perceived as separate from all what is.

[Josephkoudelka]

Thought creates the illusion of the separate self. It is an idea.
The direct experience is when what is is perceived without the filter of the comments, thoughts, ideas....sounds, smells, walking seeing...no names, no labels...then no borders, no separation is felt. Like the other day in the supermarket...it includes everything... also thought, but it is not seen, perceived as separate from all what is.

Yes. It is always a thought. There may be sensations and perceptions in direct experience that seem to trigger the thoughts that bring along a narrative of suffering or separation, but in the end, selfing happens when the content of a thought is taken as the truth. Without that hook, a self is never found.

I can't possibly be a thought or it's content. This whole seamless event happening now, is always present; beyond any hope of a me, a self, being able to control it. When experienced from this vantage point, it is seen that a self is such a tiny, limited idea. I mean just look around, there is so much to take in, endlessly. Life knowing life happening. Wow.

Coming back to the other side of no self, what about control, choice... Is there a controller or chooser?

[antara]

Is there a controller or chooser?

No, there is not...It is also a thought...the control and the choise also belongs to the thought, to the separate me. It is the same as with thoughts...I dont choose them, they appear, even if I think, I choose...I dont. The same with choises.

Yes, and it seems that there is no hope also...because it needs the one who hopes...
And no meaning as well in the way as i used to see it...With this I can see how mind tries always to find explanation...And now it feels like it is not true...It just interprets and chaters, but it does not know...It knows nothing...

Antara

[Josephkoudelka]

Is there a controller or chooser?

No, there is not...It is also a thought...the control and the choise also belongs to the thought, to the separate me. It is the same as with thoughts...I dont choose them, they appear, even if I think, I choose...I dont. The same with choises.

Yes, there is no choice or control. A thought might claim so, but this is just another thought that appears without any effort on the part of an illusory self. Thoughts just happen. How could a thought choose anything?

Yes, and it seems that there is no hope also...because it needs the one who hopes...
And no meaning as well in the way as i used to see it...With this I can see how mind tries always to find explanation...And now it feels like it is not true...It just interprets and chaters, but it does not know...It knows nothing...

Here I would offer - be careful. This is another series of thoughts that seem to sometime appear in response to seeing that there is no doer or maker of thoughts. It is impossible to know if there is no meaning... Definitely hope is a sure sign of an illusory self making up a story. Who would need, or miss hope?

Even this is just a story, what I am writing here, now. Meaninglessness would only apply to an idea that *thinks* THIS should be different.

When we were looking before, at our experience directly, now... was it not vibrantly alive, filled with a sense of freedom?

Let's do a bit more looking at our direct experience and see if meaningless is just another story or not?

Look! Is there a self anywhere that can be grasped? Is meaningless just another thought? Is it real in direct experience? Or another story?

Joseph ♥︎

[antara]

Look! Is there a self anywhere that can be grasped? Is meaningless just another thought? Is it real in direct experience? Or another story?

No, it is not real in direct experience. It is another story.
That is exactly how it feels...That there is much more than a thought can grasp.
It feels much richer, much more alive than any meaning or explanation that a thought can ever give... It feels like no words can fully describe this.
I can just see, that whatever meaning thought is giving to any experience...it just may not be true...and how much life has been labeled in such a way...and there is so much, that is just Wow...

Antara

[Josephkoudelka]

No, it is not real in direct experience. It is another story.

This is the whole of it. Checking directly what is actually going on, now. We can always ask,"Is it true?" Even if we feel like it has to be true just because it seems to bring some order, or explanation, or control... we can verify by looking directly, now. The power of now is not a myth. the other thing to check, and I find it more liberating, is, "am I choosing my thoughts, am I the doer?" Every time I check, I see that every thought I know is memory only. How could there be an "I" doing anything if it is only a thought? In time, this ruthless truth, frees whatever energy is stuck on the treadmill called self.

Of course, every bit of this is a story also, but we must use words to do what we are doing now. What a trip, what an interesting and beautiful game, THIS IS.

What do you feel unclear about with regard to self/no self? I'd like to help you find stability in seeing like this over and over again. On facebook we have a number of groups where this can continue to be explored further post gate. Is it clear now that there is no "I" or "me", outside of this seamless experience knowing itself now?

Another thing to explore, if you could do anything different than it is now, wouldn't you? When we are engulfed by the waking state in the morning, isn't life already full on? And it is as if we are remembering this illusory self to have some control over the situation, to know what our place is in it? We have never been able to pin it down. It is happening no matter what we think. Let it be, this already knows everything that needs to be known, NOW.

[antara]

Hi Joseph,

Thank you for your pointers. It helps...:)
I havnt had much time today at the computer to write you an answer, so I will do that tomorrow...

[Josephkoudelka]

Ok. Maybe tomorrow then.

[antara]

What do you feel unclear about with regard to self/no self? I'd like to help you find stability in seeing like this over and over again. On facebook we have a number of groups where this can continue to be explored further post gate. Is it clear now that there is no "I" or "me", outside of this seamless experience knowing itself now?

It feels clear. But as you say I need to find stability with this.I do look over again during the day and there are moments , when its quite easy to see thru the illusion of separate self...and there are moments, when I get cought up. Your pointers and questions are helpful. As i wrote in one of my posts it is easier, when i am alone or in the nature, but it more difficult in interaction with others.

At the moment there are no concrete question, maybe something will appear... but I would like very much to stay in contact and to keep on looking. Thank you,so much for your help.

It feels like a flower, what is starting to open and i would like to keep on watering it.

I have joined two LU Facebook groups - Liberation Unleashed Gate and LU Loving Kindness Group. Is there any other???

Love,
Antara

[Josephkoudelka]

It feels clear. But as you say I need to find stability with this.I do look over again during the day and there are moments , when its quite easy to see thru the illusion of separate self...and there are moments, when I get cought up. Your pointers and questions are helpful. As i wrote in one of my posts it is easier, when i am alone or in the nature, but it more difficult in interaction with others.

It is easier, when alone or in nature, at least in the early days of this. If you continue to look from time to time throughout the day, as you are, it will become easier to look even in the midst of activity. And a time will come when it is known immediately, even during emotional strife. This is the beginning of liberation, kicking in the gateless gate, arriving fresh, alone, without a self, and all of life included.

At the moment there are no concrete question, maybe something will appear... but I would like very much to stay in contact and to keep on looking. Thank you,so much for your help.

I would enjoy very much staying in contact, and available for looking with you.

It feels like a flower, what is starting to open and i would like to keep on watering it.

It is like this, this is the Way.

I have joined two LU Facebook groups - Liberation Unleashed Gate and LU Loving Kindness Group. Is there any other???

There are. First we need to get you through the five final questions. The other groups are for post-gate and are secret. This way we maintain a vibrant community of LU Gatecrashers who can guide one another in a more relaxed and open manner as peers. Even just sharing our day to day living with one another. When we complete the final questions and any additional questions that other guides might ask, you are then invited to join these.

So on to the matter at hand. Let's start with question one again.