Thread for bill =8^0

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Billy3xs
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Re: Thread for bill =8^0

Postby Billy3xs » Wed Nov 12, 2014 5:06 pm

Dear Vivien,
Seeing
Currently there are words on the screen being read. Go to the actual experience itself, and ignore the suggestion of thoughts.
What reads these words?
Is there anything that is reading, or reading is just happening?
Oh I like this one, so repeatable. So I look at a word and a meaning appears in my mind. Another word and another meaning, etc. It's just, input and experience. Had fun all day, just seeing from thing to thing. More tomorrow...

Sincerely,
bill

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Billy3xs
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Re: Thread for bill =8^0

Postby Billy3xs » Thu Nov 13, 2014 4:38 pm

Dear Vivien,
Seeing
Currently there are words on the screen being read. Go to the actual experience itself, and ignore the suggestion of thoughts.
What reads these words?
Is there anything that is reading, or reading is just happening?
Oh I like this one, so repeatable. So I look at a word and a meaning appears in my mind. Another word and another meaning, etc. It's just, input and experience. Had fun all day, just seeing from thing to thing. More tomorrow...
Look around in the room. Go to the actual experience itself, and ignore the suggestion of thoughts.
What sees?
Is there a seer somewhere, or there is just seeing happening?
No seer, just seeing. Seeing just is, changing with each change of looking.
Hearing
Pay attention for the background sounds. Go to the actual experience itself, and ignore the suggestions of thoughts.
Does a hearer arise in the actual experience?
Is there somewhere a hearer, of just hearing happening?
This is different because there is no controlling the ears and hearing. Sounds come and go, just hearing, no hearer. If I may be so bold, I have to submit one of my coolest thoughts. ;-) The proof of the mind's desire to label EVERYTHING is that if an unlabeled sound appears, the mind FREAKS OUT with OMG "what was that!" Total proof... ;-)
Smelling
Smell something, an orange, coffee or the hand.
In the fragrance that arises, is there any direct evidence that there is a smeller (or a nose) that is doing the smelling, or is there only smelling?
Only smelling, no thing doing the smelling, only sensation arising from smell.
Of course, thoughts and mental images suggest ‘explanations’, but when they are examined closely, are they really the case?
This examination DOES give new meaning to "don't believe everything you think". Thoughts seem to be under more scrutiny than before and some are just SO bogus! Especially repetitive old nagging worry wort ones. ;-) A bit like after Dorothy discovers the Wizard of Oz pulling levers behind the curtain. He was just a kindly, somewhat frail old man.

Sincerely,
old man bill

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Vivien
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Re: Thread for bill =8^0

Postby Vivien » Thu Nov 13, 2014 9:36 pm

Dear Bill,
So I look at a word and a meaning appears in my mind. Another word and another meaning,
How is this known that “meaning appears in the mind”?
What is ‘mind’ in the actual, direct experience?
How ‘mind’ is experienced, with which of the 5 senses?

The proof of the mind's desire to label EVERYTHING is that if an unlabeled sound appears, the mind FREAKS OUT with OMG "what was that!"
How all of these known?
Can ‘mind’ desire or label anything?
Can ‘mind’ be freaked out?
Can ‘mind’ do anything?
Is there REALLY a ‘mind’ that could do anything?

This examination DOES give new meaning to "don't believe everything you think". Thoughts seem to be under more scrutiny than before and some are just SO bogus!
Just some?

Love, Vivien
"In the seen, there is only the seen. In the heard, there is only the heard. In the sensed, there is only the sensed. You are located neither in this, nor in that, nor in any place between the two." - Buddha
http://fadingveiling.com/

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Billy3xs
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Re: Thread for bill =8^0

Postby Billy3xs » Fri Nov 14, 2014 3:12 pm

Dear Vivien,
Dear Bill,
So I look at a word and a meaning appears in my mind. Another word and another meaning,
How is this known that “meaning appears in the mind”?
By unexamined education, that's what I was taught. But now I would say the thought label containing past experiences, definition, meaning, for the sense input appears and a thought says it appears in something called Mind.
What is ‘mind’ in the actual, direct experience?
In DE there is no mind.
How is ‘mind’ experienced, with which of the 5 senses?
Mind is not experienced by the senses, it is just a thought, a concept like Self.
The proof of the mind's desire to label EVERYTHING is that if an unlabeled sound appears, the mind FREAKS OUT with OMG "what was that!"
How are all of these known?
Well direct experience of "mind knowing" or "freaking out" has changed by examination to nothing but another thought. But the reaction to a sense input that has not been labeled is there for sure. Perhaps the survival need to have labels for everything is just another thought that, believed, fires the feeling of possible danger.
Can ‘mind’ desire or label anything?
No, it's just a thought.
Can ‘mind’ be freaked out?
No, the thought 'danger', believed, triggers fear.
Can ‘mind’ do anything?
No it's just a concept.
Is there REALLY a ‘mind’ that could do anything?
Uncle! Uh, I mean no, it can't do anything. ;-)
This examination DOES give new meaning to "don't believe everything you think". Thoughts seem to be under more scrutiny than before and some are just SO bogus!
Just some?
Love, Vivien
Ha ha, got me. Well, food for thought? ;-)
Sincerely,
bill

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Vivien
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Re: Thread for bill =8^0

Postby Vivien » Sat Nov 15, 2014 1:46 am

Dear Bill,
Well direct experience of "mind knowing" or "freaking out" has changed by examination to nothing but another thought. But the reaction to a sense input that has not been labeled is there for sure. Perhaps the survival need to have labels for everything is just another thought that, believed, fires the feeling of possible danger.
Good looking. :)

Let examine the content of thoughts deeply.

An arising thought is ‘real’ only as an arising thought, but NEVER its content (what it’s about).

When there is a thought, it is obvious that it is there. (So the arising thought is ‘real’), but what it is ABOUT (its contents) are not. The content of thoughts is always imaginary. That there is a thought is clearly true; but their content is pure imagination.

There are two types of thoughts:
  • (1) Thoughts with words “Here is cup”
    (2) Visual mental images of a ‘cup’
I invite you to do this exercise:
Think of a cup. Get a very clear picture in your mind. See clearly the size, shape, colour and volume of the cup. Notice whether it is decorated or plain. Notice whether it has a handle. Notice whether it is heavy or fragile. Do you have a clear picture in mind?

Now, can you physically grasp that image of a cup?
Can you pour tea into it?
Can you drink from it? In Reality?

Is there a ‘real’ cup or just an image of a cup?
Is there an appearing mental image?
Is the content of the mental image (the cup) ‘real’?

The thoughts and mental images are real only as arising thoughts and mental images, their ‘presence’ cannot be denied. However their contents, what are they about (like the cup) are not ‘real’, they are just fantasies. Can you see this?


Over the course of the next few days, I'd like you to notice the content of thoughts. Whenever there is an arising thought or mental image, check whether its content (what it’s about) it is REALLY happening or the content it’s just pure imagination.

Love, Vivien
"In the seen, there is only the seen. In the heard, there is only the heard. In the sensed, there is only the sensed. You are located neither in this, nor in that, nor in any place between the two." - Buddha
http://fadingveiling.com/

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Billy3xs
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Re: Thread for bill =8^0

Postby Billy3xs » Mon Nov 17, 2014 6:42 pm

Dear Vivien,
Now, can you physically grasp that image of a cup?
Can you pour tea into it?
Can you drink from it? In Reality?
No physical touching, no pouring, no drinking. Not real.
Is there a ‘real’ cup or just an image of a cup?
Is there an appearing mental image?
Is the content of the mental image (the cup) ‘real’?
Just an image, just imagination.
The thoughts and mental images are real only as arising thoughts and mental images, their ‘presence’ cannot be denied. However their contents, what are they about (like the cup) are not ‘real’, they are just fantasies. Can you see this?
Yes thought is real and the contents are not real in the physical universe, I can see it.
Sincerely,
bill

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Vivien
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Re: Thread for bill =8^0

Postby Vivien » Tue Nov 18, 2014 4:24 am

Dear Bill,
Yes thought is real and the contents are not real in the physical universe, I can see it.
Good :)

With eyes closed, put one of the hands onto the table. Pay attention only to the pure sensation.

Does the pure sensation itself suggest in any way that the hand is doing the touching?

Does the pure sensation itself suggest in any way that there is a hand (subject) that touching the table (object), or is there only touching?

When all mental images and thoughts are ignored is there a ‘hand’ or a ‘table’ at all, or is there only touching (pure sensation)?


Love, Vivien
"In the seen, there is only the seen. In the heard, there is only the heard. In the sensed, there is only the sensed. You are located neither in this, nor in that, nor in any place between the two." - Buddha
http://fadingveiling.com/

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Billy3xs
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Re: Thread for bill =8^0

Postby Billy3xs » Tue Nov 18, 2014 10:01 pm

Dear Vivien,
With eyes closed, put one of the hands onto the table. Pay attention only to the pure sensation.
Does the pure sensation itself suggest in any way that the hand is doing the touching?
There is just a sensation of touching.
Does the pure sensation itself suggest in any way that there is a hand (subject) that is touching the table (object), or is there only touching?
No hand, just pressure sensation.
When all mental images and thoughts are ignored is there a ‘hand’ or a ‘table’ at all, or is there only touching (pure sensation)?
Only touching, sensing a smallish field of pressure sensation.
Sincerely,
bill

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Vivien
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Re: Thread for bill =8^0

Postby Vivien » Wed Nov 19, 2014 6:35 am

Dear Bill,
No hand, just pressure sensation.
And
Only touching, sensing a smallish field of pressure sensation.
OK, please do it again, and look more closely.

We are trying to separate thought content and what is actually happening.

Is there REALLY a pressure in the actual experience, or is there only a pure sensation that is labelled by thought that this is a pressure?

Love, Vivien
"In the seen, there is only the seen. In the heard, there is only the heard. In the sensed, there is only the sensed. You are located neither in this, nor in that, nor in any place between the two." - Buddha
http://fadingveiling.com/

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Billy3xs
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Re: Thread for bill =8^0

Postby Billy3xs » Thu Nov 20, 2014 11:50 am

Dear Vivien,
We are trying to separate thought content and what is actually happening.
Is there REALLY a pressure in the actual experience,
or is there only a pure sensation that is labelled by thought that this is a pressure?
No pressure in DE. It is just a thought labeling the type of sensation.

Sincerely,
bill

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Vivien
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Re: Thread for bill =8^0

Postby Vivien » Fri Nov 21, 2014 1:27 am

Dear Bill,
No pressure in DE. It is just a thought labeling the type of sensation.
Good.
Let’s go along with the body.

With the eyes closed, sitting still, notice hearing, smelling, tasting, touching. With only the input from the senses, and without relying on thoughts or mental images:

Can it be known how tall the body is?
Does it have a weight or a volume of the body?

Is there a boundary between the body and the clothing?
Is there a boundary between the body and the chair?

In the actual experience does the body have a shape or a form?

Is there an inside or outside?

What is the body in the actual experience?


Love, Vivien
"In the seen, there is only the seen. In the heard, there is only the heard. In the sensed, there is only the sensed. You are located neither in this, nor in that, nor in any place between the two." - Buddha
http://fadingveiling.com/

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Billy3xs
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Re: Thread for bill =8^0

Postby Billy3xs » Fri Nov 21, 2014 12:19 pm

Dear Vivien,
Can it be known how tall the body is?
Does it have a weight or a volume of the body?

Is there a boundary between the body and the clothing?
Is there a boundary between the body and the chair?

In the actual experience does the body have a shape or a form?

Is there an inside or outside?

What is the body in the actual experience?
None of these can be known, not how tall, weight or volume, no boundaries, shape or form. No inside or outside is sensed. The body seems to be just inputs from the senses. Beyond that is just thinking.

Sincerely,
bill

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Vivien
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Re: Thread for bill =8^0

Postby Vivien » Sat Nov 22, 2014 4:25 am

Dear Bill,
None of these can be known, not how tall, weight or volume, no boundaries, shape or form. No inside or outside is sensed. The body seems to be just inputs from the senses. Beyond that is just thinking.
Good… let’s go one step further.

If the ‘I’ is just a thought, then what is ‘past’?

Just consider…
Look in the mirror. See the image that is called ‘body’.

Was the ‘body’ that is seen in the mirror the one that was born on a certain date?
Or is the ‘body’ that is being seen in the mirror, different to the ‘body’ that was born on a certain date?

Other than this thought, how else is it known that the ‘body’ was born on that specific date?
Or is the thought the only link?
And because that thought is believed in, it is said to be 'reality', but is it really?

However, all it is just a thought appearing that is believed in?
Can you see this?

Can you see that “This body was born on xxxx” is simply a thought appearing that is believed in, and nothing more than that?

So, can this body have a past?
Or everything that is labelled as ‘past’ is just a mental story?
Other than contents of thought stories, is there a ‘past’?

Can time be experienced?


Love, Vivien
"In the seen, there is only the seen. In the heard, there is only the heard. In the sensed, there is only the sensed. You are located neither in this, nor in that, nor in any place between the two." - Buddha
http://fadingveiling.com/

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Billy3xs
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Re: Thread for bill =8^0

Postby Billy3xs » Sat Nov 22, 2014 12:55 pm

Dear Vivien,
If the ‘I’ is just a thought, then what is ‘past’?
The past is just a thought called memory.
Was the ‘body’ that is seen in the mirror the one that was born on a certain date?
Or is the ‘body’ that is being seen in the mirror, different to the ‘body’ that was born on a certain date?
This body is very different from the one in 1946! OMG!
Other than this thought, how else is it known that the ‘body’ was born on that specific date?
Or is the thought the only link?
Just thoughts from things like old folded and tattered documents laying in a dresser drawer.
And because that thought is believed in, it is said to be 'reality', but is it really?
No, nothing can be touched in the thought called Billy.
However, all it is just a thought appearing that is believed in?
Can you see this?
Yes, I can see it, in me and in my grown children.
Can you see that “This body was born on xxxx” is simply a thought appearing that is believed in, and nothing more than that?
Yes, only thoughts.
So, can this body have a past?
Or everything that is labelled as ‘past’ is just a mental story?
Other than contents of thought stories, is there a ‘past’?
No, just thoughts. This current body did not exist in the past.
Can time be experienced?
Only by thoughts of the past or the future.
Sincerely,
bill

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Vivien
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Re: Thread for bill =8^0

Postby Vivien » Sat Nov 22, 2014 10:21 pm

Dear Bill,
Vivien: Can time be experienced?
Bill: Only by thoughts of the past or the future.
What is time?
How time is experienced with the 5 senses?

What is past and future?
How past or future is experienced with the 5 senses?

Does past or future ‘exists’ other than content of thoughts?

Is there a proof that you had dinner last night?

Is there any proof whatsoever that the past has ever happened?

Is there anything outside of this present moment?

Love, Vivien
"In the seen, there is only the seen. In the heard, there is only the heard. In the sensed, there is only the sensed. You are located neither in this, nor in that, nor in any place between the two." - Buddha
http://fadingveiling.com/


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