QuantselfLaFont Thread

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QuantSelfLaFont
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Re: QuantselfLaFont Thread

Postby QuantSelfLaFont » Sun Oct 26, 2014 12:48 am

If you can, go outside and look at life. Walk in the street, talk with someone, look at trees and birds, be present with what is happening.
Took your advice and went for a long walk on a beautiful San Francisco day!
see if you are this awareness you're talking about… what can you see living life? Can you find an entity - be it a small you (self) or a big you (awareness)?
I cannot find a small entity nor is there a big separate awareness. What (I) see is physical – legs moving, arms swinging, toe hooking on paving stone. What (I) feel is wind on arms, thirst, sun on face, sting of pain in toe from paving stone ☺. What (I) think is “Will it rain?”, “How much farther?”, “Beautiful house.” What (I) see, feel and think does not include a small self or a big me (awareness).
When it seems there is a you present, a separation, what makes this subject, entity, separate self, personal awareness, this separation seem real?
When it seems an “I” appears it seems real because it is thought happening rapidly at different levels of intensity. During the walk thoughts were rapid as moving through the streets included navigating, decisions about stopping, discussion with my partner about thing we were seeing. A lot of stimulus triggered a lot of reactions. Some thoughts were small (“Take a left here.”) and others absorbing (“What will we buy at the store later?”). As large and small thoughts rise and fall rapidly one after the other it gives the seeming appearance of a coherent “self” – like frames on a film run through a camera and seem to create movement. This self is easier to see as an illusion when thoughts slow down and their random nature can be seen. Catching the individual frames (thoughts) is hard because they are different intensity and coming very fast. Once returning from the walk and sitting quietly the triggers slowed, thoughts slowed and "I" is nowhere to be found. Whether fast or slow, intense or small they are still thoughts.

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Canfora
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Re: QuantselfLaFont Thread

Postby Canfora » Sun Oct 26, 2014 10:10 am

I feel it's time for doing a checkpoint :)
At the moment, what makes you think there is a separate you?

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Re: QuantselfLaFont Thread

Postby QuantSelfLaFont » Mon Oct 27, 2014 12:12 am

At the moment, what makes you think there is a separate you?
There is no separate "I" and nothing forces us to think there is one. Thoughts flow. The language and logic of thoughts imply a separate self. The habit of a lifetime devoting attention to the logic of separate self, reinforced by lessons taught from parents, schools, jobs and other sources of socialization make the logic of "I" an assumed thing, so embedded in the flow of attention that the "I" label goes on everything. The assumption of "I" can be dropped by seeing that there is no separate self only that which arises.

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Re: QuantselfLaFont Thread

Postby Canfora » Mon Oct 27, 2014 10:08 am

You sound very clear, Paul.

What differences do you notice in normal ordinary everyday life, since the start of this conversation?
What has changed and what hasn't?
Is seeking still there or has it dropped?

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Re: QuantselfLaFont Thread

Postby QuantSelfLaFont » Mon Oct 27, 2014 8:52 pm

What differences do you notice in normal ordinary everyday life, since the start of this conversation? What has changed and what hasn't?
In ordinary everyday life the real things are the same. The chair stands on four legs. The picture on the wall stays on its hook. Trees outside the window remain green, brown and moving in the breeze I can feel on my skin through the window. The bus goes by with its noise and smell. What I hear, see, smell and taste as it always has. Things move, wave and make noise. Thought arises in response to events, labelling, creating stories, assumptions, etc. The sensations and the real are the same.

A few differences have come up are in thoughts:

I have a new response taken from your early suggestion about fear. When sensations in my chest or head arise coupled with thoughts “That noisy person is waking ‘me’ up” or “I need to send that payment” I have just sat directly with the feeling and sometimes enquired “where is the I?” and others said “Just get into this feeling” and I’ve watched the sensations and thoughts subside quickly. That is a new way to respond and I thank you for the guidance on that!

There is a “less heaviness” in thoughts that come up. This one is hard to describe in language. I remember being a habitual “if this then that” planner where the “this” and the “that” were somehow weighty, important and attention consuming. The substance of this thought structure has shifted in a way that is hard to describe. The logic still arises and I see/feel it, but it now comes up without the weightiness. There is no diminishment of clarity, energy or capacity - its that thoughts are just useful potentialities, not life or death realities.

Is seeking still there or has it dropped?
It has dropped. The thought/feeling that I am “here” and the answer is somewhere “there” is gone. There is just here. Sometimes I just laugh at how simple that is. And how hard I worked for so long trying to find the “there” when it never was!


Oh, I did see a Unicorn. Actually, it was a dog dressed in a unicorn costume at a pet fair we attended yesterday. There was a costume contest and these dogs were dressed as all manner of characters. It was very funny. One was dressed as a unicorn. I thought it was such a fitting analogy for our work here.. how much like thought that costume was. The dog was just being a dog, and all the people were laughing and enjoying seeing a unicorn. But what was real is it was just a happy dog! The costume didn't change the nature of the dog.

I am feeling a lot of gratitude for the energy and time you put into being a Guide for me. Thanks so much!

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Re: QuantselfLaFont Thread

Postby Canfora » Tue Oct 28, 2014 1:48 pm

In ordinary everyday life the real things are the same. The chair stands on four legs. The picture on the wall stays on its hook. Trees outside the window remain green, brown and moving in the breeze I can feel on my skin through the window. The bus goes by with its noise and smell. What I hear, see, smell and taste as it always has. Things move, wave and make noise. Thought arises in response to events, labelling, creating stories, assumptions, etc. The sensations and the real are the same.
Absolutely, that is also my experience. In a strange way, all is the same and all is different. There is a opening to a new way of looking at life, a simpler way, it seems.
I have a new response taken from your early suggestion about fear. When sensations in my chest or head arise coupled with thoughts “That noisy person is waking ‘me’ up” or “I need to send that payment” I have just sat directly with the feeling and sometimes enquired “where is the I?” and others said “Just get into this feeling” and I’ve watched the sensations and thoughts subside quickly. That is a new way to respond and I thank you for the guidance on that!
I'm happy to know that staying present with what's going on, and seeing the difference between what is happening and what isn't, makes the storm subsides. That is also my experience. It's curious the way we think we are an I when all that seems to prove the existence of an I is always changing.
There is a “less heaviness” in thoughts that come up. This one is hard to describe in language. I remember being a habitual “if this then that” planner where the “this” and the “that” were somehow weighty, important and attention consuming. The substance of this thought structure has shifted in a way that is hard to describe. The logic still arises and I see/feel it, but it now comes up without the weightiness. There is no diminishment of clarity, energy or capacity - its that thoughts are just useful potentialities, not life or death realities.
Wonderful!
It has dropped. The thought/feeling that I am “here” and the answer is somewhere “there” is gone. There is just here. Sometimes I just laugh at how simple that is. And how hard I worked for so long trying to find the “there” when it never was!
Yes, it's amazingly simple. The there is never here, only in thinking :)
Oh, I did see a Unicorn. Actually, it was a dog dressed in a unicorn costume at a pet fair we attended yesterday. There was a costume contest and these dogs were dressed as all manner of characters. It was very funny. One was dressed as a unicorn. I thought it was such a fitting analogy for our work here.. how much like thought that costume was. The dog was just being a dog, and all the people were laughing and enjoying seeing a unicorn. But what was real is it was just a happy dog! The costume didn't change the nature of the dog.
This is delicious, thank you for sharing! I would love to see the dog dressed in a unicorn costume!
I am feeling a lot of gratitude for the energy and time you put into being a Guide for me. Thanks so much!
Thank you for your kind words and your openness to looking, Paul. It's my pleasure!

Let's see if there is something unclear. Can you please answer the questions below looking at your experience? Take your time with them, no need to rush.

Have you been able to find, a ‘you’ that is the ‘experiencer’?

Or a you that is the doer, or can control what happens?

Or a you that ‘makes’ decisions?

Or a you who ‘does the thinking’?

Is the "body" just another thought label for sensations (namely tactile & kinesthetic)?

Are the five body senses made to arise or experienced by this ‘you’?

Is there a you ‘in here’ which is separate from the world and others ‘out there’?

Is there doubt or unclarity that in all these cases the ‘you’ is nothing other than a mental fabrication?

And finally:

Are there any doubts about seeing through the illusion of separate you?

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Re: QuantselfLaFont Thread

Postby QuantSelfLaFont » Wed Oct 29, 2014 4:01 am

I spent the day with these.
Have you been able to find, a ‘you’ that is the ‘experiencer’?
Definitely no. Experience arises. I cannot find an "I" there
Or a you that is the doer, or can control what happens?
No. Actions happen and the thought follows.
Or a you that ‘makes’ decisions?
When I am quiet and look there are only thoughts that give commentary on actions that have occurred. Even decisions are historical revisions created after the fact. If I turn a corner on a walk the turning just happened. Thought arises saying "I decided to turn here because I was hungry." This thought, and the decision embedded in it, are a fiction. There is no decision. Action precedes the commentary.
Or a you who ‘does the thinking’?
Thoughts and sensations arise and are often joined. There is not an "I" at the source doing the thinking. The feeling "I" is itself a thought and sensation, but it is not a separate being.
Is the "body" just another thought label for sensations (namely tactile & kinesthetic)?
Body is a thought label. If I lose an arm the body is still "body" and if I grow my hair a lot longer the body is still "body." So body is a concept that is not tied to the amount of skin, hair and sensations arising, it is just a label.
Are the five body senses made to arise or experienced by this ‘you’?
The five senses arise. Many of the sensations never even make it to the level of triggering thought. The feeling/thought "I" occurs when the sensations combine in a way to trigger thought which from habit attaches language of the "I" experience
Is there a you ‘in here’ which is separate from the world and others ‘out there’?
No. "In here" and "out there" are thoughts labelling a false barrier and are artifical distinction. There is no "I" and no "in" or "out"
Is there doubt or unclarity that in all these cases the ‘you’ is nothing other than a mental fabrication?
There is no doubt that "I" is a thought\
Finally, are there any doubts about seeing through the illusion of separate you?
No, I have no doubt that I have seen through the illusion. There was no one magical point that I can remember, there has been a steady absorption of the truth of it until I looked and saw. I feel like the journey has just begun!

Thanks!

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Re: QuantselfLaFont Thread

Postby Canfora » Wed Oct 29, 2014 12:31 pm

I have to say that your answers made me have goosebumps, Paul, thank you for that!
I feel like the journey has just begun!
Yes! LU has a community in FB for aftercare, exploring and sharing of experiences. I would love you to join us.

Can you please answer LU standard "final" questions? When you have finished, I will ask the other guides to read this conversation and see if we missed something that is important to look at.

Here are the questions, take your time with them, there is no need to rush:

1) Is there a separate entity 'self', 'me' 'I', at all, anywhere, in any way, shape or form? Was there ever?

2) Explain in detail what the illusion of separate self is, when it starts and how it works from your own experience. Describe it fully as you see it now.

3) How does it feel to see this? What is the difference from before you started this dialogue? Please report from the past few days.

4) What was the last bit that pushed you over, made you look?

5) Describe decision, intention, free will, choice and control. What makes things happen? How does it work? What are you responsible for? Give examples from experience.

6) Anything to add?

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Re: QuantselfLaFont Thread

Postby QuantSelfLaFont » Thu Oct 30, 2014 4:02 am

Is there a separate entity ‘self’, ‘me’, ‘I’, at all, anywhere, in any way, shape or form? Was there ever?
There is no “I”, “me”, “self” at all, anywhere or in a shape or form. There never was. These feelings arise from thought and though thought is real, the separate self that is the byproduct of thought is not and never was.
Explain in detail what the illusion of separate self is, when it starts and how it works from your own experience. Describe it fully as you see it now.
The illusion of separate self is a feeling that arises from thought. It starts when we are still very young and our parents, teachers and others who mean well teach us to have a strong “self” and protect “yourself” Language is the vehicle of self, inserting an “I” before the label that our thoughts apply to that which arises in the world. When I stand in a green space looking at a leafy thing, the thought “tree” arises. The reflex of habit from a lifetime of training inserts “I see a beautiful tree.” Thus the “I” is created. When enough of these “I” thoughts arise at high enough speed all that there seems to be is “I”. This is not real.
How does it feel to see this? What is the difference from before you started this dialogue? Please report from the past few days.
Both very much the same, and very different. The same is direct experience; leafy thing, breeze on face, screech of train on tracks, sound of voice in distance. Thoughts uncontrollably arise the same way “I this” and “I that.” What is very different is the thoughts are now just thoughts. Useful for some problem solving, to be appreciated and let go as just thoughts. What is also different is the weightiness of thought –as I described before they feel light. And all seeking that arose from many thoughts is gone.
What was the last bit that pushed you over, made you look?
The entire conversation was a steady progression of Looking until finally I realized I could See. Two specific experiences in this process pushed me well and good. First was the recognition that sitting in an emotion quickly dispels the “I” and then the feeling that triggered the thought of “I”. Sometimes I awake in the night with a feeling in my chest that I equate with anxiety. On your advice I switched from “solving for” the feeling to “sitting in” the feeling. In each case “I” disappeared and the feeling vanished. This was a powerful recognition that the solving for was a thought trick to solve a thought created problem. I realized that “solving for’ is seeking and it permeates everything when “I” is not seen as illusion. A second experience was the exercise of “inside” and “outside”…once I connected movement and vibration as just happening and that the inside and outside was thought trying to put a distinction on what was just there, I remember an “aha” and a powerful laughter came out. It was like I had heard a funny joke and could not even remember the punch line but I was tickled very much by the shift.
Describe decision, intention, free will, choice and control. What makes these things happen? How does it work? What are you responsible for? Give examples from experience.
What arises simply is and decision, intention, free will, choice and control are thoughts that try to put the “I” logic on things that have arisen. Occasionally they will be thoughts to label creating a future fictional scenario. What makes them seem real is thought as the “if/then” logic of “I” works on a framework that chains things together. If I read then I will be smart. If I get a degree then I will make more money. All thoughts. In my experience future planning always gave the illusion of having control over a path, yet in all cases the path was just followed. The feet moved. The jobs changed. People came, and went. My thoughts about intention and control were in no way connected to no responsible for what arose. Often they my plan and what happened and my plan were complete opposites, until thing happened then I claimed I had planned it all along! All thoughts.
Anything to add?
Wow! A big huge shout and huge gratitude and swelling of eyes and energy in chest for the simplicity and clarity of the process. I feel so gratified. Looking forward to engaging the community in the various arenas and remaining a big supporter of this movement to Liberation! Thank you!

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Re: QuantselfLaFont Thread

Postby Canfora » Thu Oct 30, 2014 2:15 pm

We have no more questions to ask, Paul. It was an immense pleasure being your guide, thank you!
You will receive a message from one of the administrators soon and I'll be there to say hi when you enter the FB community :)

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Re: QuantselfLaFont Thread

Postby QuantSelfLaFont » Thu Oct 30, 2014 10:14 pm

Thank you very much. Will see you on the FB!


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