Looking for guide :)

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Pete777
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Re: Looking for guide :)

Postby Pete777 » Tue Sep 30, 2014 11:09 pm

im not aware of any fear. but if there is any i think it's in the relation to you, and not in relation to seeing/not seeing.

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Canfora
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Re: Looking for guide :)

Postby Canfora » Thu Oct 02, 2014 10:22 am

im not aware of any fear. but if there is any i think it's in the relation to you, and not in relation to seeing/not seeing.
This is not about you and me. This is about seeing through the illusion of a separate self. Is this something that you still want to do? What is keeping you from looking?

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Pete777
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Re: Looking for guide :)

Postby Pete777 » Thu Oct 02, 2014 12:00 pm

it is that i feel i can't give any progress in the answers of your questions – this feels embarrassing, but I guess fear of failing in your eyes, and you telling me im not doing it properly. Is post is also marked by it, I’m inclined to just write fast answers and send it to you.

Pete777 wrote:there is no certainty that it's all an illusion present.

What do you mean when you write all and illusion? Are you expecting life to become like a dream, so that you can wake up from it? When you look to what is happening here-now do you see an illusion? What's present?
With “all” I mean the story of the self. Here now there is what is perceived through the senses + thought story.

Pete777 wrote:They make the thoughts feel very real though.

Thoughts are real. They are experienced. It's the story they tell that isn't real. The story is always about what is not happening. Even when thoughts are about something that took place seconds ago. The thought happens after the fact. See for yourself if what I am saying is what happens in your experience, don't trust me, please :)
Well what about the thought “I’m thinking now”. Isn’t that about what is happening? But for other thoughts I guess you might be right. For example: thinking “the plant is green”. This seems to be true also when and after it is thought. But I guess the thought stems from seeing it is green the first time, so the thought is about something that happened in the past.

Pete777 wrote:Today some things pushed my buttons.

When those kind of things happen, you enter "story mode" and it's all about the "you", isn't it?
Yea, I guess.

If you can't find a you when looking to experience, what makes you think there is a you when thoughts are about the story of Pete?
Well I can’t find it, but I still kinda believe in it. And what makes me more convinced when my buttons are pushed? Maybe the feelings that are activated? When fear is activated enough there is not possible for me to just “view” it. The identification is just there.

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Canfora
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Re: Looking for guide :)

Postby Canfora » Thu Oct 02, 2014 1:05 pm

it is that i feel i can't give any progress in the answers of your questions – this feels embarrassing, but I guess fear of failing in your eyes, and you telling me im not doing it properly.
I assure you that you cannot fail at my eyes and I won't tell you that you are not doing this properly. Seriously.
The only thing I'm doing here is asking you to describe what is going on in your experience to the best of your ability. Simple stuff :)

To do that, you need to leave to the side what was learned and have a fresh look to what is happening here and now. That's all. There are no right or wrong answers and I don't judge you in any way, shape or form! My only role is to see if you really looked at what is happening here and now or if you are answering from something that was learned previously, from thoughts that are believed because they were never questioned. And keep our conversation as simple as possible to keep us from entering thoughtland and miss the most direct path to the Gate.

Does this sound good and doable, Pete? Feel free to tell me what you think.

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Pete777
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Re: Looking for guide :)

Postby Pete777 » Thu Oct 02, 2014 1:33 pm

I also believe that fear of not seeing might be part of the resistance.
Does this sound good and doable, Pete? Feel free to tell me what you think.
Your words are somewhat comforting. Your role seems good and doable to me. If it's doable for me I don't know. Because I believe the fear of failing to "see" might make me "cheat" with the looking.

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Canfora
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Re: Looking for guide :)

Postby Canfora » Thu Oct 02, 2014 3:28 pm

Because I believe the fear of failing to "see" might make me "cheat" with the looking.
I think I understand what you are saying... What is your idea of what seeing is? Can you explain what is seeing to me, please? With an example or two?

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Pete777
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Re: Looking for guide :)

Postby Pete777 » Fri Oct 03, 2014 3:13 pm

I don't know if you ask me what recognizing no-self is like, or if you ask what looking for no self means.

What looking for no self is: relaxing and waiting passively (without getting lost in thoughts) for thoughts to appear.

What recognizing no-self is: see that thoughts are not chosen by "me". Even the inner commentary.

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Canfora
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Re: Looking for guide :)

Postby Canfora » Fri Oct 03, 2014 5:11 pm

I don't know if you ask me what recognizing no-self is like, or if you ask what looking for no self means.
During our conversation I said "look" and "what can you see when you look to(...)" many times.

Things like: "What can you see if you try to find a you inside the body" or "When you look at something, a book, a tree outside or whatever, can you find an 'I' that is looking or seeing, or is there just seeing?"

That's why I am asking what's your idea of what seeing is, to find if we are in the same page.

If I ask you "do you have your keys in your pocket?" what will you do?

There are 2 possibilities:

1. You will think about the question and answer "yes" or "no".

2. Or you will check the pocket to "see", to be sure, if the keys are inside it and - after finding or not finding the keys - answer "yes" or "no".

If your answer is from doing 1. (thinking - believing that what you think is true) your knowing about the existence of the keys will be intellectual.

If your answer is from doing 2. (seeing - checking what can be found in experience) - your knowing about the existence of the keys will be an experience.

Seeing that the separate self only exists as a thought is done with 2., looking, seeing what is experienced.

To understand this in a more practical way do the following next time you feel thirsty:

1. think about drinking a glass of water and then

2. drink a cup of water

I would like to read a description of what happens during 1. and 2., just to make sure you SEE the difference between thinking and seeing/experiencing.

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Pete777
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Re: Looking for guide :)

Postby Pete777 » Fri Oct 03, 2014 7:28 pm

1. think about drinking a glass of water and then
there are thoughts about the glass of water, about wanting it, and a feeling of dryness in the throat.
2. drink a cup of water
there are some sensations (that with thought is called water) in the mouth and throat area. and the desire for water goes away.

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Canfora
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Re: Looking for guide :)

Postby Canfora » Fri Oct 03, 2014 10:25 pm

Doing the exercise, did you saw the difference between thinking about something and seeing/experiencing?

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Pete777
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Re: Looking for guide :)

Postby Pete777 » Fri Oct 03, 2014 11:09 pm

Yes, thinking about drinking is thoughts and perhaps a feeling of absence of drinking. Actually drinking there are sensations too.

Another example:
Thinking about sitting on a chair - thoughts about where the sensations will be - pressure from the chair, akin in the back.
Actually sitting in the chair: experiencing the pressure and the other sensations.

So I guess the difference is that thinking is "make-believe" and experience is actual sensory input.

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Canfora
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Re: Looking for guide :)

Postby Canfora » Sat Oct 04, 2014 10:52 am

Yes, that's it, Pete. And you can't drink an imaginary glass of water or sit in an imaginary chair.

If you look to what is happening here and now, what can you see /experience that is - without a doubt - a you (instead of a thought about a you)?

Just look, like you would look to find a pair of shoes that were misplaced :)

I'm looking forward to what you find.

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Pete777
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Re: Looking for guide :)

Postby Pete777 » Sat Oct 04, 2014 2:28 pm

What I can see that is without a doubt a me: There are feelings. Those don't feel like a me. THen there is the thought "I'm here" and a corresponding feeling. This feeling is sort of a comfort-feeling. I thinkit makes me believe there is a me. I then try to ask: is this thought+feeling really a "me"? There is then the thought that this is "not-me" and a corresponding feeling of trying to suppress the "me-feeling". Then there is frustration.

Expectation: feeling that feelings are impersonal.

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Canfora
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Re: Looking for guide :)

Postby Canfora » Sat Oct 04, 2014 7:37 pm

Hi Pete, thanks for looking! Let's see what you found.
There are feelings. Those don't feel like a me.
ok
THen there is the thought "I'm here" and a corresponding feeling.
Thought + sensation
This feeling is sort of a comfort-feeling.
A thought about a sensation.
I thinkit makes me believe there is a me.
Thought
I then try to ask: is this thought+feeling really a "me"?
Thought
There is then the thought that this is "not-me" and a corresponding feeling of trying to suppress the "me-feeling".
Thought + sensation
Then there is frustration.
Sensation
Expectation: feeling that feelings are impersonal.
A thought

Reading your words I see you found thoughts and sensations while looking for a you. What about a you - a separate entity thinking those thoughts and having those sensations? Can this you be found?

Have a look, what can you see? What is present? Can you see objects, can you touch them, can you hear sounds?

What about this you that's supposed to be there? Can it be seen, touched, heard?

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Pete777
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Re: Looking for guide :)

Postby Pete777 » Sun Oct 05, 2014 9:35 pm

Reading your words I see you found thoughts and sensations while looking for a you. What about a you - a separate entity thinking those thoughts and having those sensations? Can this you be found?
No, I can't find it.
Have a look, what can you see? What is present? Can you see objects, can you touch them, can you hear sounds?
Yes.
What about this you that's supposed to be there? Can it be seen, touched, heard?
No, I haven't found it.

But the gateless gate is still not crossed. And there is resistance against practice. I think it stems from fear of failure to see that the self is an illusion


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