Looking for guide :)

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Canfora
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Re: Looking for guide :)

Postby Canfora » Thu Sep 11, 2014 11:23 am

When you looked to the senses you saw that they arise on their own:
Seeing happens. Hearing happens. Feeling happens. Tasting happens. Breathing happens.
When you looked to separation you said:
What makes it seem separated: The content of the experience differs. And then thoughts label experience as different. But everything is part of experience.
and
Experience is not recognized to be “staccato”, it is seamless.
If you look right now, can you SEE that all is just happening and what is happening is seamless?
In that experience of "just happening seamlessly", can you SEE a separate you?
I can not see a self. I can just feel a strong belief in the self xD [nb. This may seem to contradict what I’ve written above – what I mean, however, is that knowledge-wise I don’t believe in it, but feelings-wise I believe in it.]
Hmmm... what do you mean with "but feelings-wise I believe in it."?
There is a feeling that you are a you? Is that feeling a you?
Regarding the spirituality: I only care about what works – that is, how to be free from anxiety/shame/stress.
If you can't find a separate you, experience is seamless and what is perceived with the senses is just happening, what can you see that needs to get free from anxiety/shame/stress? Aren't "anxiety/shame/stress" labels used to explain an experience that is also just happening? At this moment are any of the stories that cause anxiety/shame/stress happening? What can you see here-now that needs to be free?
1) When I say “I am here” there is a strong feeling/belief for it to be true.

When you say feeling what do you mean by that? Something that is felt in the body? Can you describe what is felt to be the I?

When you say belief what do you mean by that? Something that is thought? Is a belief/thought an I?
2) When trying to see what happens when I make a choice, I notice that the feeling/intention to make one of the choices just arises (chose banana over another fruit). The choice is made in an unknown place (subconsciously)
Did you saw a chooser? What is choosing what words to write?

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Pete777
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Re: Looking for guide :)

Postby Pete777 » Thu Sep 11, 2014 12:25 pm

If you look right now, can you SEE that all is just happening and what is happening is seamless?

I can’t really see it. I think the doership stands in the way. It feels like I can decide to move my arm to the left. So the perception is like this: I can act and am responsible for my actions. Things are not felt to be just happening. Even though I’ve earlier seen the intention arise on its own.
In that experience of "just happening seamlessly", can you SEE a separate you?
No, I can’t “see” a separate me. Thoughts arise, but when some of the thoughts arise they are felt/believed to represent “me”. I’m the one that comments. Another example is when I act on auto-pilot and then catch my self saying the wrong thing. I presume I am the catcher.
Hmmm... what do you mean with "but feelings-wise I believe in it."?
There is a feeling that you are a you? Is that feeling a you?
No, but the one experiencing that feeling is believed to be me. And the fact that experience is happening is taken as evidence for this. When asking who this experiencer is the answer is in thoughts and a feeling/conviction of will.

If you can't find a separate you, experience is seamless and what is perceived with the senses is just happening, what can you see that needs to get free from anxiety/shame/stress?
What can I see. I can’t see anything. There is a thought that this is because the eye can’t see itself. Re-reading this sentence, I believe that identification with the commentary-thoughts is the key.
Aren't "anxiety/shame/stress" labels used to explain an experience that is also just happening?
Yes, the experience is just happening, but it’s not a preferable experience.
At this moment are any of the stories that cause anxiety/shame/stress happening?
When writing this, none of these stories are happening. It’s just sitting, typing, some sensations etc, and feelings/thoughts about the stories.
What can you see here-now that needs to be free?
When identifying with the story, “I” need to be free. When viewing identification with the story as just thoughts passing by nothing needs to be free. This is not felt to be really seen though (mind comment: still some blindspots left). For example: When doing things out of pragmatism - resisting bad thoughts, or looking for a result - this is believed to be done by "me". Will look more into this. One problem is that when denying that this is me, the denying is taken as evidence of a "me" - "if it wasn't then why try to deny it?" is the thoughts behind this I believe. Every attempt to look starts out as this. Maybe it's better to look for longer periods of time.
When you say feeling what do you mean by that? Something that is felt in the body? Can you describe what is felt to be the I?
Yes, it’s partly the muscles used when saying the words. If I exchange the words with similar ones, the same feelings are there, but not taken to point to an I.

When you say belief what do you mean by that? Something that is thought? Is a belief/thought an I?
It goes like this: someone said it. Who said it if it wasn’t me? And who wanted to say it if it wasn’t me? These thoughts don’t arise if I don’t think about it, but I think this is the thoughts behind the conviction.
Did you saw a chooser? What is choosing what words to write?
No, the choice is presented in direct experience, but not made there. The choice just arises.

I can feel expectations of the shift to make selfing to stop. These can be put away but will arise again unnoticed. I will say, however, that losing face does not plague me as much as earlier.

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Canfora
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Re: Looking for guide :)

Postby Canfora » Thu Sep 11, 2014 3:55 pm

Let's slow down.
It feels like I can decide to move my arm to the left.
Move your arm to the left, then. What do you see happening?
Can you see a you moving the arm or not moving the arm?
If you can't see a you, is "doership" real?

Try to find something that needs the existence of a doer to get done. Then look and see if what you think is true. Share what you find :)

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Pete777
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Re: Looking for guide :)

Postby Pete777 » Fri Sep 12, 2014 1:04 pm

Move your arm to the left, then. What do you see happening?
Can you see a you moving the arm or not moving the arm?
If you can't see a you, is "doership" real?
When I read “move your arm” the arm moves. No mover observed. When I say “move or not move”, the thoughts and answer arises within me. When I choose between picking up two things, the choice arises – it is not made consciously.
Try to find something that needs the existence of a doer to get done. Then look and see if what you think is true. Share what you find :)
1) Wilful actions – actions that are not perceived to be automatic
a. “powerful” action is perceived to be done by me. Setting boundaries in anger
i. hard to test at the moment, as I am not in such a situation. I can however see that the intention to set boundaries probably just arises.

b. Breathing too heavily during meditation
i. “I have to breath correctly” - control breath - and then the breathing gets uncomfortable
ii. on closer inspection: the inclination to control breath just arises.

c. When I say “I am here”. The sayer.
i. I can’t find a doer, but I can find a will/intention. This is taken to be me
ii. Where does this intention come from? On closer inspection it seems to just happen
iii. (from mind: as a result of the circumstances in the moment (desire and situation = action))


d. Thinking about some stuff that can’t be solved from memory
i. So that it has to be done with effort, f. eks: 17x37=?
ii. On closer inspection I still can’t find a doer, even though there seems to be effort made.
iii. If doing it in front of others the pressure is higher. Then the effort and sense of doership and risk of losing face is stronger.


e. Another example is when I act on auto-pilot and then catch my self saying the wrong thing. I presume I am the catcher.
i. Hard to test at the moment.
ii. But this is recognized to be just the same as the others – just intention arising.


f. Concentration when doing something dangerous
i. Walking on a high cliff
ii. Hard to test at the moment, but same thing here. The fear and caution just arises.


g. Thinking on my own, evaluating and analyzing myself, the process, social situations etc.
i. When retrospecting, no doer is found. No doer is found when looking at how intention to do stuff arises in real time either.
ii. It keeps arising though. Then there is memory of tossing all expectations. This is however hard to do – as there is no certainty of seeing. There is fear of getting fooled.


2) Suffering
a. Losing face
b. This brings a certain feel (shame/hatred or something?)
i. There is still some sensations in the head that is believed to be caused by perceived loss of face.  identification as “me”.
c. This feeling is believed to be the result of belief that what I am is shaken deeply in the eyes of others.¨
d. is taken as proof of that the denying is done by “me” and that I’m fooling myself.
i. Or that the shift hasn’t happened
e. What happens when the expectation of a shift is tossed?
i. nothing special
ii. Not sure if it is seen deeply, but I’m logically convinced this is true.


3) When denying that something is said/done by me.
i. “if there is no you, then why are you denying the bad feelings?”
1. Who is the denyer?
ii. On closer inspection it just arises
iii. Nothing changes when this is seen however
iv. There is still identification with some of the thoughts – I believe the “shame-ones”?
v. Looking into “shame-thoughts”:
1. they don’t go away when looked at. The conclusion then is that it is me. Will try to follow them over some time.

Will be away for the weekend as I’m going for a cabin trip.

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Canfora
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Re: Looking for guide :)

Postby Canfora » Fri Sep 12, 2014 4:26 pm

Reading your post, this caught my attention:
v. Looking into “shame-thoughts”:
1. they don’t go away when looked at.
Is this your experience? When you look at thoughts, they don't go away?
Try to contain a thought. What happens?
Can you find a container - a self - where thoughts are stored?

This also caught my attention:
When I choose between picking up two things, the choice arises – it is not made consciously.
When a choice happens, can you see a you making unconscious choices? What could this I be? A little you, inside the brain, pondering over choices, until it reaches a decision?
Will be away for the weekend as I’m going for a cabin trip.
Thank you for telling me. Have a nice weekend!

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Pete777
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Re: Looking for guide :)

Postby Pete777 » Sun Sep 14, 2014 10:46 pm

Is this your experience? When you look at thoughts, they don't go away?
Try to contain a thought. What happens?
Can you find a container - a self - where thoughts are stored?
In direct experience a thought will arise and then disappear. It can't be contained. Can I find a container? no.
With shame-feelings it seems to be different though. I don't think I can contain it, but it doesn't just go away when I am aware of it. It can go on for hours I believe.

When a choice happens, can you see a you making unconscious choices? What could this I be? A little you, inside the brain, pondering over choices, until it reaches a decision?
Mind answer: the unconscious "me" is believed to be the brain.
Answer from direct experience: no "me" making unconscious choices is found. The intention to make a specific choice just arises.

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Canfora
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Re: Looking for guide :)

Postby Canfora » Mon Sep 15, 2014 1:01 pm

With shame-feelings it seems to be different though. I don't think I can contain it, but it doesn't just go away when I am aware of it. It can go on for hours I believe.
What causes these shame-feelings? Is it something that is happening here and now or thoughts about something that isn't happening here and now?

Can you see the difference between what is happening here and now and what isn't happening here and now? Give me some examples justifying your answer to this last question, please.

Are these shame-feelings personal? If they aren't, what makes them SEEM to be personal?

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Pete777
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Re: Looking for guide :)

Postby Pete777 » Mon Sep 15, 2014 9:54 pm

What causes these shame-feelings? Is it something that is happening here and now or thoughts about something that isn't happening here and now?
It is something that may be happening now (judgement by others), but not here. So the answer must be thoughts/beliefs about something that isn't happening here and now. Beliefs are thoughts that's taken to be true.
Can you see the difference between what is happening here and now and what isn't happening here and now? Give me some examples justifying your answer to this last question, please.
I think I do. HEre and now there is typing, some lower back-sensations. Some sensations in the head and shoulders, some bad feelings about what I believe is happening other places. What isn't happening here and now from my perspective: you, everyone I know, everything outside the senses + thoughts/emotions.
Are these shame-feelings personal? If they aren't,
Are they personal? It sure feels like it. I am what I believe others think of me. Lol. That can’t be right.
what makes them SEEM to be personal?
Mind answer: 1) they are happening here, and not over at your place, or any other place. 2) they are part of my identity/identification.
Direct experience: the thoughts feels like they are ”me”. When denying it I don’t believe the denying. When they are coming the focus is just on what I believe others are thinking. “He thinks I'm pretentious/grandiose --> I'm a failure”. And there is a belief that there is a “me”. I think that’s why it seems personal. Btw. there is no separate thought that says "there is a me" - so I don't know if this belief could be categorized as a thought.

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Canfora
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Re: Looking for guide :)

Postby Canfora » Tue Sep 16, 2014 3:45 pm

Hi, Pete777!
Btw. there is no separate thought that says "there is a me" - so I don't know if this belief could be categorized as a thought.
Can you explain what you're saying here using other words, please?
the thoughts feels like they are ”me”
Try this. Sit down in a quiet room. Allow some thoughts to arise. Thoughts like 'the sky is blue'. 'Today is Tuesday'. Notice the response of the body in DE. Are there sensations? Where are they? How do they feel?

Allow yourself to think more emotionally laden thoughts, like the kind of thoughts you describe here: "what I believe others are thinking. “He thinks I'm pretentious/grandiose --> I'm a failure”. Again, are there sensations? Where are they? How do they feel?

After this experience, can you tell me what makes thoughts feel like they are a you?

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Pete777
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Re: Looking for guide :)

Postby Pete777 » Tue Sep 16, 2014 10:45 pm

And there is a belief that there is a “me”. I think that’s why it seems personal. Btw. there is no separate thought that says "there is a me" - so I don't know if this belief could be categorized as a thought.
Can you explain what you're saying here using other words, please?
What I mean is that there is a belief that there is a me, or that the thoughts point to me. But as this identification is happening in direct experience, there is no simultaneous thought that says “this is me”. So what makes some thoughts feel like me? Don’t know. See below.
Try this. Sit down in a quiet room. Allow some thoughts to arise. Thoughts like 'the sky is blue'. 'Today is Tuesday'. Notice the response of the body in DE. Are there sensations? Where are they? How do they feel?
Hmm.. I find it hard to describe thoughts, but I guess they come as a silent/inner voice, or inner image. They are usually accompanied by some subtle sensations in the tongue. Seems like some refocusing of the eyes happens too.
Allow yourself to think more emotionally laden thoughts, like the kind of thoughts you describe here: "what I believe others are thinking. “He thinks I'm pretentious/grandiose --> I'm a failure”. Again, are there sensations? Where are they? How do they feel?

When allowing myself to think more emotionally laden thoughts, nothing special happens. They don’t come, so I have to think them on purpose. The mind can not fool itself, so no emotional reaction is seen.
When other circumstances provokes these kinds of thoughts, however (when they are not “forced” to come as a part of your task to me, there is an emotional response in addition to the regular thought. Also, the attention seems to be glued to the thought – there is no “looking at thought” or some distance to the thought while this happens – there is only a belief in the thought.
After this experience, can you tell me what makes thoughts feel like they are a you?
Maybe a combination of emotional response and that it goes under the radar of the looking?
I found the task hard as a got lost in thoughts all the time.
Another mind answer is that the “I” thought comes in and claims the ownership. This is not seen clearly in DE, however.

Will continue to look at this question.

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Canfora
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Re: Looking for guide :)

Postby Canfora » Wed Sep 17, 2014 11:53 am

You wrote that thoughts feel like they are a you. What do you mean by this word feel?

I asked you to look at the feelings, the sensations - not to thought itself. Your answers were mainly about what happens when thinking happens.

When there is no thinking going on, when the focus is in sensations, is there still a belief in a "me"? Are sensations a you?

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Canfora
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Re: Looking for guide :)

Postby Canfora » Wed Sep 17, 2014 12:05 pm

I found the task hard as a got lost in thoughts all the time.
Focus in the sensation of breathing, that may help. If you catch yourself lost in thoughts, return gently to that sensation. Looking at the sensation of breathing, can a you be experienced as being that sensation?

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Pete777
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Re: Looking for guide :)

Postby Pete777 » Wed Sep 17, 2014 1:51 pm

You wrote that thoughts feel like they are a you. What do you mean by this word feel?
When thinking that somebody judges me, it really feels like I am the object of their judgement (I believe the judgement to be true). And therefore the emotional response comes. I’m not sure, but I think I mean that I believe in/identification with the judgement and an “I”, or that the thought is accompanied by some "me"-feelings in the head

Try this. Sit down in a quiet room. Allow some thoughts to arise. Thoughts like 'the sky is blue'. 'Today is Tuesday'. Notice the response of the body in DE. Are there sensations? Where are they? How do they feel?
Not much response in the body. There are sensations but they are there regardless of thoughts popping up or not. May cause some head sensations.
Allow yourself to think more emotionally laden thoughts, like the kind of thoughts you describe here: "what I believe others are thinking. “He thinks I'm pretentious/grandiose --> I'm a failure”. Again, are there sensations? Where are they? How do they feel?
They feel more like shame – hard to describe the sensations more specific. But they may feel good in a strange way. Tingling.

When there is no thinking going on, when the focus is in sensations, is there still a belief in a "me"? Are sensations a you?
When focus is on sensations, only sensations is experienced. In that moment there is no active thought/belief saying there is a “me”. After some time the “I” thought along with a feeling in the chest/throat/head appears. I sometimes try to resist this thought as I don’t want to believe in this “I”. The resisting implies a “me” so it doesn’t work.
Focus in the sensation of breathing, that may help. If you catch yourself lost in thoughts, return gently to that sensation. Looking at the sensation of breathing, can a you be experienced as being that sensation?
Thoughts says “this is part of me”. But when thoughts are still, there is only the experience of the breathing. I wouldn’t say that I am that sensation.
The sensations in the head feels more like me however, it’s like an assumption that I am the head. Looking more closely I can just find sensations there, and thoughts that claims them.

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Canfora
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Re: Looking for guide :)

Postby Canfora » Wed Sep 17, 2014 3:49 pm

Thank you for going back and answering those questions about sensations again, along with the last ones!
Let's do a checkpoint:
When thinking that somebody judges me, it really feels like I am the object of their judgement (I believe the judgement to be true). And therefore the emotional response comes. I’m not sure, but I think I mean that I believe in/identification with the judgement and an “I”, or that the thought is accompanied by some "me"-feelings in the head
When you look, is it clear that a belief in/identification with the judgement and an “I” aren't an I?
When focus is on sensations, only sensations is experienced. In that moment there is no active thought/belief saying there is a “me”. After some time the “I” thought along with a feeling in the chest/throat/head appears. I sometimes try to resist this thought as I don’t want to believe in this “I”. The resisting implies a “me” so it doesn’t work.
Is it clear that the "I" thought and sensations in the body aren't an I?
What about the resistance, is the resistance happening to a you or is the resistance just happening?
The sensations in the head feels more like me however, it’s like an assumption that I am the head. Looking more closely I can just find sensations there, and thoughts that claims them.
Is a you inside the body - inside the head or the brain?
Regarding sensations and thoughts - are you sure they are happening in the head, is that your experience?

You also mentioned that
When allowing myself to think more emotionally laden thoughts, nothing special happens. They don’t come, so I have to think them on purpose. The mind can not fool itself, so no emotional reaction is seen.
What do you mean with "The mind can not fool itself"? Is this true?

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Pete777
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Re: Looking for guide :)

Postby Pete777 » Thu Sep 18, 2014 9:55 pm

When you look, is it clear that a belief in/identification with the judgement and an “I” aren't an I?
When looking it is seen that thoughts arises. But I am not sure if this is seen with all thoughts. There is confusion about having seen the truth but not dropped the expectations, or not seen the truth yet. There is dissatisfaction, however. There is this goal, and I am trying to reach it. So I guess there at least are some expectations. Can’t seem to drop them easily.
Is it clear that the "I" thought and sensations in the body aren't an I?
Well it’s clear to me that it can’t be an I – as the “I”-thought arises without control. But I believe it gives some kind of security that still hooks me.
What about the resistance, is the resistance happening to a you or is the resistance just happening?
In the moment it feels like I’m resisting. That I am doing it, it’s not just happening.
“If I want it, then I’m doing it.” I don’t know why I can’t see it or what I’m doing wrong. Kinda tired of looking, losing motivation.
Is a you inside the body - inside the head or the brain?
No. the assumption is more like this: there are sensations, thoughts and intention in the head-area. thats me
Regarding sensations and thoughts - are you sure they are happening in the head, is that your experience?
Well, in direct experience there are just sensations in the area I with thought would call “the head”. Should I look more into this?
What do you mean with "The mind can not fool itself"? Is this true?
What I mean is that when I intentionally try to bring bad thoughts, there is no emotional reaction to them. The mind then reasons that this is because they are brought intentionally. I don't know if the mind never can fool itself.


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