Guidance needed

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Freddi
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Re: Guidance needed

Postby Freddi » Sat Jul 05, 2014 7:20 am

Hi Alessandro
I am so sorry to hear about your grandpa, now I understand why feelings of uselessness of Life would come up.
I'm not 24/24 out of the illusion, doubts still emerge ecc
We can keep chatting until you are 100% clear, if you would like that. No rush.

Are you expecting some change? Are you looking for a 'click', a lightbulb moment?

Fred
"To come to your senses you have to go out of your mind" - Alan Watts

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kiltro
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Re: Guidance needed

Postby kiltro » Sat Jul 05, 2014 12:13 pm

We can keep chatting until you are 100% clear, if you would like that. No rush.
Yes I would. Thanks for your help

I expect some change in the perspective in from which life is experienced. As I say thought about I will come up, and doubt to but with awareness of the illusion 24/24.
I don't necessary aspect a "click", I see it as a gradual process..

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Freddi
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Re: Guidance needed

Postby Freddi » Sat Jul 05, 2014 12:42 pm

I expect some change in the perspective in from which life is experienced. As I say thought about I will come up, and doubt to but with awareness of the illusion 24/24.
I don't necessary aspect a "click", I see it as a gradual process..
If Life, or we could call it WHAT IS, is ALL THERE IS, can there be a ‘you’, separate, that experiences it in one way or another? Who or what is doing the experiencing? You? Life? Is Life experiencing itself? If we talk of perspective from which Life is experienced, there are two things here, right?

The ‘I’ thought will continue to come up. It certainly does here, and will continue to do so. Whether it is believed or not will depend on how strong the current thinking pattern is.
As we have discussed before, seeing that ‘I’ is only an idea is not an end, but a beginning. After that a process of questioning and investigating thoughts starts, that is why we have created a couple of ‘aftercare’ groups on Facebook.
What you will find is that Life seems to bring up issues that can be looked at, if there is an openness, just when needed. In stressful situations for example, it is particularly tricky to step out of the mind stream and ask yourself ‘OK is this thought real?’, ‘What is alive right here, right now’, and yet that is the process of inquiry that is only starting. This journey can take a while, ultimately a lifetime.
In your first post you said that when you look if there is any reality behind this ‘I’ label, laughter can accompany the questioning of it. That is a great way to deal with residual ‘I’ thoughts.

Would you like to tell me what is alive, right now? Is there a sense of ‘I’ lurking somewhere, that we could look at together?

Thanks!

Fred
"To come to your senses you have to go out of your mind" - Alan Watts

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kiltro
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Re: Guidance needed

Postby kiltro » Sun Jul 06, 2014 8:12 pm

I guess what describe it more closely is life experiencing itself..
Today there is a lot less in thing that should be done, during meditation a lot of thoughts come up, body sensations, feeling, but the absence of an I was well clear.
There was no perception of time, i could stay there indefintly. But the the decision that meditation was over, coming from nowere and no one.
Quite difficult to express all this in words

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Freddi
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Re: Guidance needed

Postby Freddi » Sun Jul 06, 2014 8:36 pm

Hi Alessandro

Can you look into your here and now experience, and answer the following questions with honesty. Yesterday you mentioned an expectation of a gradual process to a change in perspective.

1) What would a ‘change in perspective’ look like? How do you know for sure that such a thing exists? How do you know for sure that you do not already experience that perspective right now, in this moment?
Is it something you have heard about? Is it second-hand knowledge? Or is it something you have already experienced? If I told you that what the sages experience is exactly the same as you, would you still look for something different than what is unfolding right now?

2) As you say there is Life, experiencing itself, and that is all there is. Just for a moment, come out of your thought narrative and notice your breath, notice the seeing, the hearing, the touching. It is a permanent miracle, a constant celebration. And that is all there is. THIS IS IT. All else is imagined. Past, future, ‘should’, ‘shouldn’t’. No alternative is ever possible. As you watch what is happening right now, when there is no thinking, can you see a separate ‘you’ that could experience a ‘change in perception’, however gradual?

Warm wishes,

Fred
"To come to your senses you have to go out of your mind" - Alan Watts

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kiltro
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Re: Guidance needed

Postby kiltro » Mon Jul 07, 2014 6:19 pm

1) What I mean with change in perspective is the difference being aware of the illusion or not.


2) There is no one that experience there is awarness of the illusion, or not.

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Freddi
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Re: Guidance needed

Postby Freddi » Mon Jul 07, 2014 6:45 pm

Wow that’s concise! That has to be the shortest post I ever received!
What I mean with change in perspective is the difference being aware of the illusion or not.
1) What is ‘awareness of the illusion’? Is it knowing that an illusion is an illusion? Can you observe an illusion, after it has been seen through? Or do you just see once and for all that what you thought was real was not real, full stop.

If I tell you that there is a unicorn in the room, you will check it for yourself, see that it is not real, and that's it, right? Or will you need to be 'aware' of the illusion of the unicorn?

2) When you say you can’t see any ‘I’ in direct experience, do you mean that SEEING that there is no ‘I’ is not the same as KNOWING that there is no ‘I’?

When you were a child, say you were frightened that a scary monster was hiding under your bed.
And after sweating it out for a bit you would sum up your courage, take a deep breath, and take one look, just one honest look.
Then did you then reason like this: OK I have SEEN that there is no monster, but I am not AWARE that there is no monster. How does that sound now?

Fred
"To come to your senses you have to go out of your mind" - Alan Watts

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kiltro
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Re: Guidance needed

Postby kiltro » Tue Jul 08, 2014 7:53 am

1) When I see there is no unicorn there are not images of the unicorn that still comes up and can be confused for real. Here after seeing there is no "I" there are thoughts about "I" that can be confused for real. One can still act like there is an I, and after sometime remember that in fact there is not.

2) Call it see or know, I mean the same thing. When it's not present one act as if there is an I, when it's there it's clear that I is not real.

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Freddi
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Re: Guidance needed

Postby Freddi » Tue Jul 08, 2014 12:59 pm

You have come here for guidance, Alessandro, and I keep pointing you to the evidence of what is always here, while you keep coming back to me with mind arguments, conceptual talk, no direct experience.
You also don’t answer all the questions I am asking. I am going to list here the questions you ignored over the last two days and would like you to spend some time with them. Don’t shoot from the hip and reply too quickly. Don’t scan your mind for the answers, really take the time to have an honest look into your present experience, what is alive right now, not in your head, but in your heart, if you will.

1) What would a ‘change in perspective’ look like, in direct experience? Is it any more than a concept?
2) How do you know for sure that such a thing exists, apart from in thought? Have you experienced it?
3) How do you know for sure that you do not already experience that perspective right now, in this moment?
4) Is ‘change in perspective’ something you have heard about? Is it second-hand knowledge? Or is it something you have already experienced?
5) If I told you that what the enlightened sages experience is exactly the same as you, would you still look for something different than what is unfolding right now?
6) What is ‘awareness of the illusion’? Is it knowing that an illusion is an illusion? Can you observe an illusion, after it has been seen through? Or do you just see once and for all that what you thought was real was not real, full stop.

Then two more for today:

7)
When I see there is no unicorn there are not images of the unicorn that still comes up and can be confused for real.
Can an image ever be confused for real? What is an image, in direct experience?

8)
Call it see or know, I mean the same thing. When it's not present one act as if there is an I, when it's there it's clear that I is not real.
If seeing and knowing are the same, I take it you mean that you don’t SEE all the time that there is no ‘I’. Think about other facts that you know, say that 2 + 2 = 4. Are you continuously aware of this fact, or not? Do you need to keep checking?

Thanks

Fred
"To come to your senses you have to go out of your mind" - Alan Watts

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kiltro
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Re: Guidance needed

Postby kiltro » Tue Jul 08, 2014 10:18 pm

1) In my present experience there is nothing like that. If I have to explain it I have to use concepts.

2) Thought comes up as directly seeing the selfing thoughts or not as two different perspective. In present experience there is only one reality.

3) No I don't. In the present moment there are only changing experiences

4) No I've not. No it's not. It's thoughts labeling different perceptions as different ways of seeing reality.

5) Don't know what you mean here...

6) Looking at present experience, those question doesn't make sense. There is no illusion at present.

7) An image is seeing that is been labeled by thoughts. Seeing is real, thoughts are real.

8) No I'm not continuously aware of it, no I don't.
With the "I" illusion though is not always so taken for granted.
A decision is made and it seems taken by someone.
Then if closely looking it become clear again that there's no I.

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Freddi
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Re: Guidance needed

Postby Freddi » Wed Jul 09, 2014 11:51 am

1)
1) What would a ‘change in perspective’ look like, in direct experience? Is it any more than a concept? In my present experience there is nothing like that. If I have to explain it I have to use concepts
Exactly. So if it is not seen in direct experience, and concepts are needed to refer to ‘it’, can you absolutely know that it exists?

2)
4) Is ‘change in perspective’ something you have heard about? Is it second-hand knowledge? Or is it something you have already experienced? No I've not. No it's not. It's thoughts labeling different perceptions as different ways of seeing reality.
Scan your direct experience, in this moment. Are there really different ways of seeing reality, or are there just different ways to label 'seeing reality', depending on the type of experience happening?

3)
An image is seeing that is been labeled by thoughts. Seeing is real, thoughts are real.
What part of a thought is real? Observe thoughts in direct experience. See how they come and go. What is true about them? Give me some examples if it helps.

4)
A decision is made and it seems taken by someone. Then if closely looking it become clear again that there's no I.
The keyword you use here is ‘seems’. The decision seems to be taken by someone. Does ‘seem’ make it real? Does an image of someone create a reality of someone?
Even a most enlightened sage would say what you just said: « a decision is made and it seems to be taken by someone ». That is the illusion.

5) You have mentioned an image of an ‘I’ coming back from time to time and believed in. What is that? A thought? Is it real or unreal? What is 'belief', in direct experience? Another thought? Is that one real or unreal? Is there a problem with any of these thoughts?
"To come to your senses you have to go out of your mind" - Alan Watts

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kiltro
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Re: Guidance needed

Postby kiltro » Wed Jul 09, 2014 2:03 pm

1) No, I can't.

2) No there aren't, this is what I was trying to say in my last n.4 answer. Different perspectives are just labels given to different experiences.

3) Thought comes from nowhere, stay there for some time and than disappear in the same manner as they were born. This is the real part of the thought.
For example if thought about typing comes up, reality is the experience of thought in itself, not its content.

4) I've used that word because is what I meant. It "seems" to by so, but it's not reality. Reality is the seeing of the image in itself.

5) They are thoughts. They are real, their content is not. Beliefs are a groups of thoughts with similar content. Same as for thoughts, they are real their content is not.
There can't be any problem, problem is again a label, not the reality.

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Freddi
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Re: Guidance needed

Postby Freddi » Wed Jul 09, 2014 6:23 pm

Different perspectives are just labels given to different experiences.
So let me get this right, you told me that you have an expectation, a gradual change in perspective, then you say that a change in perspective is just a label given to a different experience.
Are you saying that your expectation is for a different experience than what is happening right now?
"To come to your senses you have to go out of your mind" - Alan Watts

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kiltro
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Re: Guidance needed

Postby kiltro » Wed Jul 09, 2014 7:28 pm

My expectation is only a thought.
The content of the thought is like "You react to what happens in life like if there is an I, if your are constantly aware of how the illusion works this can'y happen."
Again those are only thoughts.

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Freddi
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Re: Guidance needed

Postby Freddi » Thu Jul 10, 2014 10:50 am

1)
My expectation is only a thought.
The content of the thought is like "You react to what happens in life like if there is an I, if your are constantly aware of how the illusion works this can'y happen." Again those are only thoughts.
Do these thoughts and especially their content, "you react to what happens as if there was an ‘I’" have any reality? Question the thoughts, investigate them, because they can sneak in as assumptions and remain unexamined, taken for granted. Ask yourself "who or what could react to what happens as if there was an I ?", and "who or what could be constantly aware of how the illusion works… ?". Stay with the questions, see what comes up and let me know.

2) Earlier, when you answered our summing-up question n° 5, you said:
Decision continue to be experienced as been made from someone. If looking for who made the decision it is clear there is no one. If not looking the illusion is present.
How do you feel about this now? How does this sound?
Is decision still ‘experienced’ as made by someone? Is that ‘someone’ part of the experiencing of what is unfolding right now?

3) You also wrote:
I'm not 24/24 out of the illusion, doubts still emerge ecc
How do you see that now? Who or what could be in or out of the illusion? Is it just an unexamined thought?

Thanks!

Fred
"To come to your senses you have to go out of your mind" - Alan Watts


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