Guidance needed

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kiltro
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Re: Guidance needed

Postby kiltro » Sun Jun 29, 2014 9:44 pm

This reads a bit like you imagined doing the exercise. Can you do the exercise and describe what you see?
Really take the time to do this. There is nothing like seeing it in your actual experience. Tell me about the objects you place in front of you. Describe the process of choosing as it is unfolding.
In fact i have not understood the exercise... I was not placing real objects on the table.
Will try this tomorrow...

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Freddi
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Re: Guidance needed

Postby Freddi » Sun Jun 29, 2014 9:48 pm

No problem, Alessandro! Take the time to do it and have a good look. Then report on what you find, as plainly as it comes.
"To come to your senses you have to go out of your mind" - Alan Watts

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kiltro
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Re: Guidance needed

Postby kiltro » Mon Jun 30, 2014 4:54 pm

Well, I've tried this a couple of times.
There is seeing then after a variable time, at the point of choosing, attention goes into one object and immediately the mind labels it.
Can't find anyone doing the process, seems to come by itself.
Don't know why an object is chosen and not one of the others...
I've used there colored pencils

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Freddi
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Re: Guidance needed

Postby Freddi » Mon Jun 30, 2014 5:45 pm

There is seeing then after a variable time, at the point of choosing, attention goes into one object and immediately the mind labels it. Can't find anyone doing the process, seems to come by itself.
Don't know why an object is chosen and not one of the others... I've used three colored pencils
OK so you clearly see that, even though there is no one in charge, attention automatically shifts to one option and the hand grabs the pencil selected. Is that selection process completely independent of all that is going on around it?
Could you look into everyday apparent decisions and let me know what factors come into play as the process unfolds?
Say when it comes to choosing what clothes to wear, or what to eat, or how to drive, etc. Are there any environmental factors, any conditioning elements playing a part? Can you describe an example how you see it? For example why is toast selected over cereal? Why is the red shirt better than the black one, today?

Thanks!

Fred
"To come to your senses you have to go out of your mind" - Alan Watts

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kiltro
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Re: Guidance needed

Postby kiltro » Tue Jul 01, 2014 1:58 pm

If is involved the survival of the body or of the self-image more concepts and feelings contributes to the choosing process.
In this cases is more evident that are also involved thoughts about past events, and future possibilities. These thoughts can trigger feelings.
If choosing what to eat, there are thoughts about what is more healthy between the two, there is a mental attempt to reproduce the taste of the foods, if in company of other people are present thoughts about what other think about what I eat.

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Freddi
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Re: Guidance needed

Postby Freddi » Tue Jul 01, 2014 7:02 pm

Hi Alessandro
If choosing what to eat, there are thoughts about what is more healthy between the two, there is a mental attempt to reproduce the taste of the foods, if in company of other people are present thoughts about what other think about what I eat.
Just to be sure, can you consider the following question: Do these thoughts about "healthy options", these "reproductions of taste" and "thoughts about what others may think" actually DO the choosing? Or are they more like a running commentary? Can thoughts choose?

So with no separate entity there to do any choosing, what is in charge? What makes things happen? How does it work? How do you see free will, these days?

Thanks!

Fred
"To come to your senses you have to go out of your mind" - Alan Watts

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kiltro
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Re: Guidance needed

Postby kiltro » Wed Jul 02, 2014 2:28 pm

No, they don't do the choose.
Choosing seems an automatic process like seeing, earing, ecc.. Like for the others mind seems to try explaining the event of choosing using thoughts.

All seems running automatic.
Even thought they seems related there is in fact no thing producing another thing. Anything seems to come from nowhere...
I don't see any free will, and even if the possibility to choose is there there is no one that do the choosing.
I don't know why things happen.

Alessandro

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Freddi
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Re: Guidance needed

Postby Freddi » Wed Jul 02, 2014 3:32 pm

Hi Alessandro,

OK let’s zoom in on the reason why you are here. You felt that what we could call ‘selfing’ thoughts still occur and return from time to time. At these times, it feels very much like there is a real, solid ‘you’ in there, am I correct? You are wondering why these thoughts return, since you saw through the illusion of the separate self.

You see, Alessandro, thoughts, of whatever nature, will not stop. Have you ever been able to stop bad weather? Or a headache? It is just the same. Thoughts are part of Life Life-ing, doing what it does, and, as you already know, there is no ‘you’ that can control, stop, change any of it. Only if there is resistance to what’s happening, suffering can follow. Seeing through the illusion of self is only a beginning, what naturally follows is an intense questioning of any thought, dualistic labelling, etc.
When these selfing thoughts pop up, investigate them, give them your whole attention. Don’t chase them away, welcome them, surrender to them.

Now I would like you to consider the following questions, scan your direct experience, not your thoughts, for an answer.

1. Are these selfing thoughts a problem?
1. Who or what is resisting these thoughts?
2. Who or what is labelling these thoughts as a problem?
3. Can thoughts change any aspect of what’s happening? Can thoughts do any harm?

Thanks!

Fred
"To come to your senses you have to go out of your mind" - Alan Watts

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kiltro
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Re: Guidance needed

Postby kiltro » Thu Jul 03, 2014 11:55 am

1. No there are not a problem per se
2. There is belif that those thoughts don't describe truth so should not be there
3. The labeling is made by other thoughts and it's automatic
4. thought can't produce nothing. If i say 'stupid' to someone in his mind other thought arise probably anger arise too. These event seems connected but are not produced one by the other. Resistance to event creation is felt like suffering...

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Freddi
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Re: Guidance needed

Postby Freddi » Thu Jul 03, 2014 12:27 pm

Hi Alessandro

Your answers were a bit minimal today. I would like you to expand a little bit more when you reply. That will give me more of an idea where you’re at.

1)
No there are not a problem per se
If thoughts are not a problem ‘per se’, in themselves, are they a problem in any other way? Are they a problem ‘per quod’, with reference to outside elements, for whom?

2)
There is belief that those thoughts don't describe truth so should not be there
Who or what is believing that these thoughts should not be there? Can you look into your first-hand, direct experience and tell me what a ‘belief’ is? Does it manifest itself in a physical way? Or is it just another thought?

3)
If i say 'stupid' to someone in his mind other thought arise probably anger arise too.
Can you ever truly know what arises in someone else’s mind? How do you know that ‘others’ even have a mind? Have you ever been able to experience ‘another mind’? Can you ‘feel’ where ‘your’ mind ends and another one starts?

Question all assumptions, Alessandro, all second-hand knowledge. Only rely on your immediate experience. You are your only authority.

4)
Resistance to event creation is felt like suffering...
Who or what is resisting events? Who or what is suffering? Can you see an entity that is doing this?

Thanks!

Fred
"To come to your senses you have to go out of your mind" - Alan Watts

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kiltro
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Re: Guidance needed

Postby kiltro » Thu Jul 03, 2014 2:28 pm

1. When a selfing thought comes and is seen in third person often other thought comes that describe it as a false thought.

2. A belief is a label to describe thoughts all pointing to the same thing. So it's not a thought but multiple thought with the same content.

3. No I can't. What I say can be reformulated as "If someone say to me 'stupid!' in my mind... ecc"
But again this is a thought about what has happened a lot of times in the past, not immediate experience

4. There is resistance. There is suffering. I'm describing what that is present not an action done by someone or something. If I search for a subject of the action can't find nothing.

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Freddi
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Re: Guidance needed

Postby Freddi » Thu Jul 03, 2014 3:18 pm

When a selfing thought comes and is seen in third person often other thought comes that describe it as a false thought.
So we end up with a thought, about a thought, about a thought, and so on, right?
Can these beliefs and these selfing thoughts be allowed just to be there, as part of Life, Lifeing?
Once seen through as unreal, as illusory, they don’t tend to stick around very long, correct?
What is your experience with these selfing thoughts, in everyday life?

Would you say you have seen through the illusion of self, without a doubt? Are there any issues or sticking points you would like to raise?

Fred
"To come to your senses you have to go out of your mind" - Alan Watts

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kiltro
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Re: Guidance needed

Postby kiltro » Thu Jul 03, 2014 7:24 pm

So we end up with a thought, about a thought, about a thought, and so on, right?
Yes that's right
Can these beliefs and these selfing thoughts be allowed just to be there, as part of Life, Lifeing?
Don't get this, I can't hallow anything, hallowing happens. Sometimes there is allowing sometimes no.
Once seen through as unreal, as illusory, they don’t tend to stick around very long, correct?
Yes this is correct, if they are recognized as unreal. This can happen after sometime.
What is your experience with these selfing thoughts, in everyday life?
I have a tournament this saturday, in these days, thoughts about if I'm going to win or lose comes up. Thought about fighting strategy, these are accompanied by feeling of oppression in solar plexus and chest.
Then thought about the illusion of all this. I can't control if I'll win or lose.
Would you say you have seen through the illusion of self, without a doubt? Are there any issues or sticking points you would like to raise?
In the moment I see no doubts are present. When the illusion is not obvious doubts arise. For example what the sense of you telling me to do this or that if in actuality all is automatic without control by anyone or anything.
Seeing the illusion of self? again an automatic process, so why worry about it?

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Freddi
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Re: Guidance needed

Postby Freddi » Thu Jul 03, 2014 8:14 pm

Hi Alessandro,
I can't allow anything, allowing happens. Sometimes there is allowing sometimes no.
Exactly. Sometimes there is allowing and sometimes not. Perhaps it would even be truer to say that, as allowing and not allowing are all happening in our thinking, none of it is real. It is all already allowed by Life, just because it already IS.
I have a tournament this saturday, in these days, thoughts about if I'm going to win or lose comes up. Thought about fighting strategy, these are accompanied by feeling of oppression in solar plexus and chest. Then thought about the illusion of all this. I can't control if I'll win or lose.
So what is happening, in actuality, is feeling of oppression in the solar plexus and chest, and many selfing thoughts coming up. What is not happening is the content of these thoughts, for example a’ you’ that could win or lose before the tournament is over, correct?
For example what the sense of you telling me to do this or that if in actuality all is automatic without control by anyone or anything.
It’s all on automatic, that’s right, but it does not mean that there are no triggers that appear to result in some event, without anyone in charge. For example if you see the rain outside, you will probably pick up an umbrella, but there is no one who chooses to pick up the umbrella. If, in the middle of a pointing exercise I ask you to raise a hand, on reading the words, you probably will. That does not mean that there is an entity called Alessandro that is doing it. The doership does not belong to any individual.
And although we can see this, we continue to use pronouns and the usual grammar to communicate. Or things could get tricky ;-)

Has anything changed since the beginning of our exchange?

There can be quite a bit of residual stuff to work through, when the idea of ‘I’ is shot through. Much habitual thinking and conditioning can remain, like an engine turned off that continues running for a while. In tense situations, like a tournament, it can make the illusion of a person seem very real in that moment. Old patterns re-emerge, sometimes undetected, then we look again, and we shrug it off. Sometimes this can stick around a bit longer, depending on how tenacious the pattern is. It does not make it real, but it can be good to have ‘others’ to share it with. That’s why we have LU groups for those who have passed through the ‘gate’. When this process is over, I would like to invite you to join these groups, to deepen your clarity and share your experiences.

Before that, we have some summing-up questions, which, if you’re ok with it, you could take a look at and answer. When we're both happy with your answers, I will invite other guides to take a look to make sure we’ve not left any stone unturned.

So what do you say, would you like to go to these questions now?

Warm wishes,

Fred
"To come to your senses you have to go out of your mind" - Alan Watts

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kiltro
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Re: Guidance needed

Postby kiltro » Fri Jul 04, 2014 2:19 pm

Has anything changed since the beginning of our exchange?
One thing I noticed is that in the last day when I go to bed I fall asleep more easily than before.
In the last days there is more indifference toward anything in life, all the things seems unimportant, like a "who care?" attitude toward anything.
For the rest anything is the same.
would you like to go to these questions now?
Again, don't feel any excitement toward knowing those questions. There is contrasting thoughts about been ready or not for those questions. Questions don't need approval to be asked


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